10 Things You’d Hate about John Wesley (and 10 Things He’d Hate About You!)
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Thu, May 17, 2007
- Viewed 1117
- (58) comments so far
He rode 250,000 miles on horseback, preached 40,000 sermons, gave away ?30,000 and left behind 132,000 followers. A hero maybe, but is he someone better appreciated at a distance? You decide.
10 things you'd hate about John Wesley
1. Despotism ? Even Wesley's own preachers called him "Pope John". He ruled his followers like an enlightened despot, and his beloved brother Charles plotted to "break his power". John expected every Methodist society to follow his rules like a McDonalds franchise, and took personal charge over every member's private life, expelling them for laziness or selling spirits.
2. Superstition ? He saw rain storms as God's punishment on him - or the Devil's attack. He made decisions by opening the Bible at random for God's guidance, and even decided whether to marry by pulling bits of paper out of a hat.
3. Copyright ? Wesley was a plagiarist and pseudepigrapher - he passed other people's writings off as his own and his own as other people's. He got into trouble for ripping off an anti-American tract of Dr Johnson's. And he attacked a book by Toplady (of "Rock of Ages" fame) by publishing a cheap caricature of it at the same time under Toplady's name. Toplady denounced him as a common crook worthy of deportation to America.
4. Grief ? He didn't believe in it, as Christians should be happy when someone goes to heaven. "I believe the death of your children is a great instance of the goodness of God towards you," he told his sister. "You have often mentioned to me how much of your time they took up. Now that time is restored to you, and you have nothing to do but serve the Lord without carefulness and without distraction."
5. Drink ? He wasn't against alcohol, actually, unlike later Methodists. While he forbad spirits, he loved wine and beer, published home brewing tips and campaigned for real ale. He also allowed tobacco for medicinal purposes. But he discouraged Methodists from drinking tea, being a waste of time and money.
6. Charismania ? Wesley often reduced his hearers to ecstatic convulsions, screams and groans, fainting, beating the ground and uncontrollable laughter. He claimed exorcisms and healings, and once thought he might have raised the dead. You might like that kind of thing or you might not.
7. Narrowness ? After his evangelical conversion, he considered all non-evangelicals "almost Christians". Though one of the most devout believers alive before then, he had been "an heir of hell". In later years he mellowed a lot.
8. Women ? Despite great services to the role of women in church, even his greatest admirers admitted that Wesley had "an inexcusable weakness" for the prettily devout. Nothing sinister, but as a married man, his gushing and intimate letters to his circle of young female acolytes was neither good matrimony nor good pastoring. And his treatment of a quasi-fiancé ©n Georgia led to him jumping parole and fleeing the state at night.
9. Perfection ? Throughout his life, Wesley preached the thoroughly eccentric doctrine that Christians can be perfect, full of love and without sin. Later he came to see it as a miraculous sudden change, like salvation, though he was as surprised as anyone when Methodists started to claim it had happened.
10. Plain-speaking ? Wesley believed in the importance of pointing out others' errors and faults with utter candour. As "one of the greatest instances of friendship", he told an old friend whose only child was dying that she was the most spoiled he had ever seen, "Happy would it be for both her and you if God would speedily take her to himself!"
10 things John Wesley would hate about you
1. Money ? Wesley said that no true Christian kept any more than the basic "necessaries of life". He himself gave away up to ?1,400 a year, living on ?30, a worker's wage. Those who buy luxuries are "embezzling their Lord's goods, corrupting their own souls and robbing the poor".
2. Laughter ? Wesley did not much approve of laughter. He rebuked one of his preachers for being willing to "break a jest, and laugh at it heartily", and complained that even George Whitefield's conversation was "often mixed with needless laughter".
3. Laxity ? Wesley would be shocked by the lax standards of Christians today. He expected men and women to sit separately in church. To start a morning meeting after 5am was "giving place to the Devil". He expelled members for swearing and for playing football on Sunday.
4. Secular music ? Wesley didn't think Christians should listen to secular songs, and certainly not dance to them. One of his mining converts smashed up his fiddle when he became a Methodist. Wesley also had grave doubts about opera.
5. Clothes ? Wesley was very unhappy about Methodists wearing anything expensive, frilly or fashionable, and later regretted not prescribing a uniform for them. On the other hand, he insisted that they be as smart as possible: "Let none ever see a ragged Methodist". Just about the last nice thing he ever said to his wife was, "I still love you for your uncommon neatness."
6. Marriage ? Spouses are far too indulgent on each other for Wesley's liking. He told his travelling preachers that those with wives or families should keep going "as if they had none", just as he did himself. He told his wife that he was forbidden to "laugh or trifle a moment when with you". His theory of matrimony (expounded on a bad day, admittedly) was "You should have given me a carte blanche. You should have said, 'Bid me do anything, everything'."
7. Children ? Parents are far too indulgent on children too. In his Methodist school the timetable was from 4am to 8pm, with religious and physical exercises, including fasting, but no play: "He that plays when he is a child, shall play when he is a man". When he married, he planned to dump any children he had there permanently.
8. Foolishness during sleep ? If you've passed all Wesley's tests so far, do your hours of sleep also honour God sufficiently? "Is there no vanity or folly in your dreams? No temptation that almost overcomes you? And are you then as sensible of the presence of God and as full of prayer as when you are waking?"
9. Non-Methodism ? Wesley dismissed almost all other Christian groups. Non-Methodists in the Church of England he called 'almost Christians', non-conformist Protestant churches were in indefensible error and as for Catholics, "No Government ought to tolerate men of the Roman Catholic persuasion".
10. Methodism ? And finally, if you go to a Methodist church, you're definitely in trouble. Wesley insisted that all his followers always attend Anglican parish services, and never talk about having their own "ministers" or "churches". "When the Methodists leave the Church, God will leave them."
Steve Tomkins is the author of a new biography of John Wesley. He has written a fascinating piece on Wesley that I thought would be great to share here. You can read more at the Ship of Fools Website
Comments
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Pastor Al on Fri, April 08, 2005
John Wesley is an easy target to be sure. He spent his life on a horse going from town to town preaching that men can come into a personal relationship with God. He was beaten and persecuted for his efforts at evangelism. God blessed his efforts by helping England avoid the ravages of a revolution that France endured. His life was lived trying to serve God with the best of his abilities and in the power of the Spirit. People like this are always easy targets for those who build their reputations on destroying the reputation of others. The sad point is that our current tendency to reduce all greatness to the lowest common denominator is evident in recent Lincoln studies which infer he was a homosexual. I thought those who claimed Christ were above this kind of personal attack – sadly I was wrong.
If you want to read a new biography of John Wesley I suggest you pass on this book and pick up Kenneth J. Collins book “John Wesley A Theological Journey.” You won’t find
Todd,
Just a point of criticism, I thought this sight was intended for “insight” not character assassination. I am disappointed with your article choice today.
Pastor Al
Todd Rhoades on Fri, April 08, 2005
Pastor Al,
I think you’re taking the article too seriously… I looked at this as a rather humorous article that shows how different things were in the past; and interesting things that I didn’t know (or haven’t thought about) about one of the great Christian leaders of all time. I don’t think it was meant to be derogatory at all toward John Wesley; and definitely not to be any sort of characther assasination.
As a matter of fact, if you’ve followed the posts here at the blog the last couple days, I have chastized those who specifically target the reputation and character of other individuals; so I would never turn around and promote that thinking with this article.
Everyone reading this… did you find this article to be a serious attempt to bring down the repuation of Wesley, or a tongue-in-cheek look at intersting characteristics of the man and how we’d relate today?
Your input is encouraged!
Pastor Al on Fri, April 08, 2005
Todd,
Thank you for your clarification.
While I appreciate your comments I believe it is one of the characteristics of our generation to look at our heroes of the past, such as Wesley, Calvin, Luther, Finney, Moody etc, with the “enlightened” thinking of our generation. We tend to dismiss their contributions because the way they lived and thought about things was different then we do today. And instead of doing the hard work of understanding the context of their statements we poke “fun” at their seemingly idiosyncrasies. I wonder how our efforts will look to future generations? I only hope they look at our lives in the context of our desire to serve God and not our desire to server ourselves, the latter which seems is the very definition of how we do church today.
Jade on Fri, April 08, 2005
Todd,
I think this article is an attempt to attack the character of a great man of God. I do not know what you purpose was for posting it, but I can tell the purpose of the writer. I studied John Wesley his theology as well as his life in school and many of things stated are not factual. Please don’t post another article like this.
You said our input is encouraged so here is mine. I too am disappointed with your choice of posting this artice. I still retain my respect for you however and appreciation for your ministry here. I just don’t see how an article like this could do us any good.
Lorrie on Fri, April 08, 2005
This is just one of the many examples of how God can use imperfect people to complete His perfect will. I find it encouraging to note that many great men who have been used by God were not perfect. If we had to wait to step out until we were complete then none of us would be able to. Depending on when such statements were made by John Wesley would be noteworthy as many statements can be taken out of context or perhaps quoted from an earlier stage of developement when he was still learning and had to overcome certain barriers. I like the saying, “Don’t throw out the baby with the bath water!” There are many truths to gleam from John Wesley’s writings and if something does not ring true then throw that out. We can learn from people of the past whether from what they did right or what they did wrong. The important thing is to keep growing and learning and running the race God has set before each of us individually and to give it our all and our best.
Todd Rhoades on Fri, April 08, 2005
OK… well, I’m 0-2 on this one. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
It very well could be me, but I think sometimes we take things a little too seriously.
As for facts being wrong, I’m not sure… this is a published biography of John Wesley, so I would think the writer and publisher would have done the proper research. To be honest, Jade, this writer may well have done more study on John Wesley to write his book than what even you did while in school as a student.
And honestly, I really don’t care if John Wesley had a problem with the Opera or secular music… BUT I do find that interesting!
There was nothing in the article that made me have a bad opinion of Wesley. It was just another time and another place.
It’s Friday… I wanted a lighthearted piece to end the week. That’s what I took it as… not a let’s make JW look like a fool.
Todd
Daniel Zepeda on Fri, April 08, 2005
Lorrie thanks for sharing your post. It really broadened my perpesctive of the article. Heavens knows how imperfect persons are continually used of God for great things as John Wesley certainly was.
Hey Todd ...sometimes you really make me chuckle and smile at some of your responses. I love you man and you are doing a great job. Have a great God filled weekend and it joy it to the fullest.
Daniel
Jade on Fri, April 08, 2005
Todd,
Indeed many things are put into print and published the are not factual. Example in text books how old the earth is, or how life came to be. Things being taught as facts. If you are believer you know them to be untrue. I was taught growing up that Alexander Bell invented the telephone, but infact he did not. I realize I am getting kind of silly here, but you get my point
Has he studied more than me, I could think so. Did he put things out of context, twist things around, oh I would believe so. The denomination I serve in makes it a recuirment to study John W throughly. Let just say many classes many papers. Do I agree with everything he has done or said of course not. I am a student of Christ not John W. I do not think it would do either of us good to argue about who knows what about whom.
As for the author I looked on his website, little weird.
All that to say this, when I said things he wrote were untrue infact I am right, and could prove it to you. However I think things have gone far enough as it is. One of the problems with this blog is you don’t know me, so you can’t understand where I am coming from. Understand to I am not upset, or mad just disappointed at this article. Ok I am done
Todd Rhoades on Fri, April 08, 2005
Sounds good, Jade… again, my only point was that we need to lighten up a little sometimes. I didn’t mean to put a spur under your saddle. Of course not everything written in print is true; I’m not that isolated or gullible. My point wasn’t ask you or anyone to prove themselves.
Have you ever thought about what George Washington would think about the U.S. if he were instantly transported into your living room? This article to me was this scenario, just using Wesley. All the things listed about JW, whether true, fictional, myth, or reality point to how different our culture is today than 50 or 100 or 200 or 500 years ago.
Remember when many people thought the Visa card was a sign of the beast?
Remember when electric guitars and drums in church were part of the ‘charasmatic fringe?’
Remember when 99.5% of all Methodist churches were traditional in style?
(These were all in the last 20 years)
Our culture constantly changes… and John Wesley lived in a different time. I find it merely an issue of curiosity for me; not of theology, character, or education, or morality, or character assasination.
Won’t it be great to get to heaven? Maybe you, me, and John can get together and have a good laugh. Then we can learn first hand if we would’ve hit it off in a previous life. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Have a great weekend!
Todd
Pete King on Fri, April 08, 2005
Just read your posting. Todd I just wanted to say I still have love for ya. How can I rip you a new one because the article didn’t really sit well with me. After all, more often that not your postings are exactly what I need. On a lighter side I would agree that maybe an article portraying such a famous character as John Wesley being this outlandish Christian for our enjoyment could be misconstrued as character bashing. There is always some truth and some exageration to every story. I believe that if the headings pro’s and con’s to his life you wouldn’t have struck out on this one. As a general rule of thumb, anything with the word hate mentioned (John would hate, You would hate)is very strong language and will always put people on the defensive. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I really have appreciated your postings and have spent many a tear reading them and sharing my thoughts as well as reading others. Keep up the good work. GOD IS USING YOUR MINISTRY.
Todd Rhoades on Fri, April 08, 2005
Thanks, Pete. I understand what you’re saying about the word “hate”. I had hoped the exclamation point at the end of the title would have been an indication that it was meant to be more of a lighthearted look than a serious theological dissertation.
I hoped that people really didn’t take it that the first ten things would make you HATE (literally) John Wesley. And to think that someone would actually HATE JW because of anything listed really never even occured to me.
And the second thing about JW hating me (or you)… again, I took it in jest. But I guess no one likes to be hated or thinking that a great man of faith would hate him as well. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Oh well… just one of those days when I shoulda slept in a little longer. Not sure that would’ve made anyone happy either (readers of this blog OR John Wesley)!
Todd
Jade on Fri, April 08, 2005
Todd,
I just wanted you to know I appreciate what you are doing and I think God is using you tremendously to help us silly Pastors out. Just some misunderstandings on both our parts. We all love you. Keep up the good work.
rev-ed on Fri, April 08, 2005
The point about secular music is what I found most interesting since the story I’d long heard about Charles Wesley is that he wrote hymns by putting new lyrics to the barroom songs the drunks were singing on their way home. Some of those tunes are classics of the hymnal.
My studies of Wesley would back a good deal of what was written above, albeit from a different era entirely. He was really big on church DISCIPLINE and was very protective of the Method. Of course anything can be twisted. . .
bernie dehler on Fri, April 08, 2005
I agree with Wesley:
“Those who buy luxuries are “embezzling their Lord’s goods, corrupting their own souls and robbing the poor”.”
We are so materialistic… while so many are dying of starvation… if we could only open our eyes, and have the love of Christ… and yet, there are those who are encouraging selfishness with the health & wealth gospel, further scandalizing “the Way.”
...Bernie
http://freegoodnews.blogspot.com
Dean on Sat, April 09, 2005
The only thing I’m curious about is whether you’re going to treat other figures like John Calvin, Martin Luther, George Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards, etc in the same fashion. Why start with John Wesley? Are you a Methodist? If so, you might be excused for starting with Wesley. If not, it might be worthwhile to start out with one of your closer forebears.
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