Being Slain in the Spirit Can Be Dangerous and Financially Rewarding

Posted on April 14, 2010
Viewed 2391 times
(101) comments

A woman in Michigan has won a sizable monetary judgement against her church.. Here's the deal. Mount Hope Church held a service in which Judith Dadd got a little too much of the Spirt and fell, injuring herself...

Sounds like a Benny Hinn push gone bad.

But anyway... in her lawsuit, Ms. Dadd claimed her pastor defamed her when he accused her of insurance fraud, faking her injuries, and renouncing her faith. A previous jury had awarded Dadd $317 in damages for her injuries as well as slander, libel, and false light.

The most recent court decision affirmed Dadd's negligence claim (worth $40k), but reversed the damages for libel, slander, and false light.

You can read the article here.

Hmm... lots of questions here.

1. Would God allow you to hurt yourself while worshipping him? I'm not sure that I've ever heard of this kind of worship-related injury before.

2. What responsibility does a church have in this kind of instance?

3. Can we agree that it probably would have been good for the pastor not to accuse of insurance fraud and faking injuries?

4. But what if she really was faking injuries and committing insurance fraud? Should the pastor have been justified in calling her out if that's what she was doing?

5. Maybe we should change the terminology from 'slain in the spirit' to 'impaired in the spirit'. If she would have actually been 'slain', there would have been a lot more damages.

Ok. Time to turn off my mind. It's getting me nowhere.

What do YOU think?

Todd

Comments

if you want a Globally Recognized Avatar (the images next to your profile) get them here. Once you sign up, your picture will displayed on any website that supports gravitars.

A. Amos Love on Sat, April 17, 2010

Michel C

Oh Yea, belonged to a Charismaniacle group once.

I was a catcher. 10 - 20 - 40, one at a time, would hit the floor.
No really, and lot’s of sheets to cover up the ladies.

So called pastor/friend, goes to Yugoslavia for two weeks.
Comes back and says to me…
I’m troubled , layed hands on over a thousand people…
No one fell down, what do you think.

Well, it’s NOT in the Bible, neither are catchers,
let’s remove the catchers and see what happens.
If it’s God, no one gets hurt.

Funny thing… No one fell down. Ooops!!!

Oh well. Back to the drawing board…
CS on Mon, April 19, 2010

A Amos Love:

“Hmmm? Today’s �Pastor/leader,�
is this a �Title� or “position” in the scriptures?

In the Bible, How many people… have the title pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are… referred to as pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are… ordained as a pastor?
In the Bible, How many congregations are… led by a pastor? “

Again, the words, “elder,” “pastor,” and, “bishop,” are more or less interchangeable for the position of someone who leads a local body of believers. It is both a title and a position. Don’t let your experiences taint your understanding of what the Bible has decreed for people who stand in the pulpit.

—
CS
A. Amos Love on Mon, April 19, 2010

CS

Thanks for the warning.

“Don�t let your experiences taint your understanding of
“what the Bible has decreed” for people who stand in the pulpit.”

Seems “my experiences” with abusive “pastors” caused me to check out,
(Being a Berean anyone?)
what my “elders/leaders” taught me, and what the Bible actually decrees. Oy Vey! :-(

In “my” research, and God forbid, my research could be wrong, as hard as I tried;

In the Bible, I could NOT find…

1 - Pastors - in pulpits - preaching - to people - in pews.

2 - the words,�elder,� �pastor,� and, �bishop,� are “more or less” interchangeable.
...And, �More or Less� means…

3 - �elder,� �pastor,� and, �bishop,� �leading� a local body.

4 - �elder,� �pastor,� and, �bishop,� as a �Title.�

Seems Jesus taught �His Disciples,� Mat 23:8-10, NOT to be called…

Rabbi/teacher for you have �ONE� teacher the Christ.
Master/Leader for you have �ONE� master/leader, the Christ.

The Interlinear Bible- Nor be called leaders,
for one is your leader the Christ.

Phillips Modern English- you must not let people call you leaders,
you have only one leader, Christ.

Today’s English Version- nor should you be called leader.
your one and only leader is the Messiah.

The Amplified- you must not be called masters ( leaders )
for you have one master ( leader ) the Christ.

None of �His Disciples� called themseves �Leaders.�
They �ALL� called themselves �Servants.� Yes?

And didn�t Paul say, everyone can and is expected to �participate.�

1Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together,
every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue,
hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying.

The �pastor - in a pulpit� model promotes �spectators,� �pew potatoes.�
Folks getting fat and lazy NOT exercising the gifts within each one.

�Traditions of men� are very dangerous. Making �Void� the word of God.
CS on Mon, April 19, 2010

A Amos:

“1 - Pastors - in pulpits - preaching - to people - in pews.”

You will find elders preaching and teaching all over the New Testament. You can also find examples of pulpits and public reading such as with Ezra and Nehemiah. Don’t get hung up on the type of chairs in which people sit.

“2 - the words,�elder,� �pastor,� and, �bishop,� are “more or less” interchangeable.
...And, �More or Less� means…”

Would you be willing to accept that elders are people who are in charge of local churches?

“3 - �elder,� �pastor,� and, �bishop,� �leading� a local body.”

Say what? Peter called himself an elder. Titus and Timothy were recognized as bishops.

“4 - �elder,� �pastor,� and, �bishop,� as a �Title.�”

1 Timothy, Titus, and 1 Peter all use the words descriptively and as a title.

Just a totally separate question—do you submit to any sort of church authority in a local body of believers?

—
CS
A. Amos Love on Tue, April 20, 2010

CS

I�m in agreement with you about
�elders preaching and teaching all over the New Testament.�

Seems �ALL� believers can, and are expected to, preach and teach
about Jesus Christ and the kingdom of God. Yes?
�ALL� believers can, and are expected to, edify �The Church,�
the ekklesia, the called out one�s. Yes? 1 Cor 14:12-26.
�ALL� believers are to be involved in �the ministry of reconciliation.�
�ALL� believers can, and are expected to, edify one another
and be �led� by the Spirit. Yes?

BUT, can�t find one �elder� with the �Title� pastor/reverand doing that.
In the Bible - Can�t find one �elder� in charge of a local church. Can you?

Today, most are �spectators,� because of the �Pastor - in pulpits� model.
We are called to be �participators.� relying on the living �Christ� within.

1Cor 12:7
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to �every man� to profit withal.

Rom 8:14
For as many as are �led� by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

You ask… �do you submit to any sort of church authority…?�

Is anyone required to submit to �abusive� authority?
Should anyone submit to someone who �exercises authority?�

1 - In �The Church of God� �His Disciples� are �Servants.�
NOT �exercising authority� or �lording it over� God�s heritage.
(Mat 20:25, Mark 10:42, Luke 22:25,) (2Cor 1:24, 1Pet 5:3, 3 John 9)

2 - In �the church of man� most so-called �Pastor/Servant/Leaders�
think they are “The” authority and become �Leaders� of the �Servants.�
Where does it say; pastor = leader = authority?

�Pastors?� teach a lot about �obey your Leaders� and �chuch authority�
but, NOT much teaching or �examples to the flock� of submitting
one to another, and esteeming others better then themselves.
Eph 5:21, Php 2:3.

Ever suggest how beneificial for a �Senior Pastor� to submit to you? Ouch! :-(

My experience with �Pastor/Leaders� and being in �leadership� is…

Everyone who assumes the �Title� and �position� of �Pastor/Leader�

No matter how loving, eventually…
No matter how humble, eventually…
No matter how much a servant, eventually…

Will �exercise authority� and �lord it over� God�s sheep.
Thus - disqualifying themselves from the position.
But will they remove themselves? Hmmm?

�Titles� become idols… Ezek 14:1-7.
�Pastors� become masters… Mat 23:8-10.

�Exerciseing authority� and �lording it over�
is the beginning of �spiritual abuse.�

�Pastor/Leader� = exercise authority = lord it over = abuse = always.

For you have �ONE� master, even Christ.
Bikeomatix on Tue, April 20, 2010

If a person truly believes that this act was an act of God, would it be consistent for them to also believe that this was God�s method of providing financial prosperity?
Brian Hutchinson on Tue, April 20, 2010

I would like to get off topic a sec & get the faithful posters here opinions on this. One of my friends was taking to a person about the Bible & the person was saying that nonw of Jesus’ disciples called him Lord. Thats when my friend called me I showed the person John 21.15-17 Where Peter calls him Lord 3 times.

This guy wouldn’t let me say anything, a side note I do not argue with anyone about the Bible. He then asked me about Numbers 23.19 Saying that the Bible is bogus because it says God is not a man. But then Jesus was the son of God.

Just wondering what some of ya’ll would say to him.
Curious on Tue, April 20, 2010

A. Amos Love,

I do not want to trivialize or come across like I’m trying to minimize what has happened to you. You have clearly been hurt. I have also been hurt by church abuse but I also know that like anything else, what that abuse was like is different for everyone. You referenced Matthew 23: 8-10 saying ‘Pastors become masters’ but it doesn’t say that at all. It says, ” 8"But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ.” It doesn’t say, “for is you are called those names you will turn into a master of people. It just says don’t be called these things. When Christ called Peter ‘the rock’ and said that on this rock He will build His church I didn’t see him say, “but Peter now that I am using you in this way you will become an abusive dictator as that is the end of everyone in leadership”. I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen, I’m just saying that it seems like-with accountability and focusing on Jesus-people in a leadership role can go the distance and not all turn crazy…
CS on Tue, April 20, 2010

A Amos:

I can see now how you’ve had bad experiences with pastors. I know how it goes, too, having suffered under some bad pastors for a time as well. And I’m sorry for what you’ve encountered, and such bad circumstances that have hurt you so. That sucks.

When exercised properly, there is a biblical position and title for those who lead local bodies of believers. That leadership is God-sanctioned and those men have the authority of overseeing Christians in the church, caring for them like a shepherd cares for sheep, which includes feeding, nurturing, correcting, and guiding. And this has gone on from the time Christ ascended even through now.

I hope that you can find a church where the pastor does this function well, so you can see how it should operate. And I hope that your heart hasn’t been too hardened because of someone’s actions.

—
CS
CS on Tue, April 20, 2010

Brian Hutchinson:

Glad to help. Your friend’s objection, unfortunately, didn’t account for that full verse in Numbers and understand it in context. Numbers 23:19 says:

“God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? “

This verse is talking about the character and nature of God, rather than discussing the forthcoming incarnation of Christ. In this verse, the Bible is making the point that if God were solely a man, He would have a sinful nature, demonstrated by lies and hypocrisy. Instead, because God is God, He does righteous things always.

In Christ, what we have is the hypostatic union—the perfect union of Him being both fully God and fully man. Just because Christ came down and took human form did not make Him any less of a God. He retained full control of all of His powers, knowledge, and love as God. He was not merely a man, but the God-Man. And because of that, He did not sin or do those sorts of things that Numbers says regular men would do.

Hopefully this would help get around your friend’s objection. I find that usually answering questions like this will not sway someone’s mind or heart, which is why I stick with the Law and go after the person’s conscience. Otherwise, you could wind up debating all of the nuances of Scripture as they are taken out of context and disseminated in petty ways.

—
CS
Brian Hutchinson on Wed, April 21, 2010

CS Thanks….The guy would’t let me get a sentence out until I put his mouth in “time out” thats when I told him that he was set in his ways & he didn’t want to hear what I had to say. And if he want to have a conversation to call me & we could discuss things….he hasn’t called back.

That was almost as fun as the guy who called the church office & asked me about what we believed so he could tell his friends who were moving to the area about our church. Then he turned the conversation into a Calvinism debate….well he debated I put the phone down.
A. Amos Love on Wed, April 21, 2010

Curious

Appreciate the concern. Really.

Believe it or not, my concern is not just with abusive pastor/leaders.
It is also for pastors who are abused.

IMO - �The Corrupt Religious Sytem,� of today, has many in it�s hold.

And the reference to Mat 23:8-10 in the KJV reads a little different then yours.
Jesus, telling �His Disciples� NOT to be called rabbi/teacher - master/leader.

Because you have �ONE� master - �Christ.� Only �ONE� master - Jesus.

Pastors become that master, to themselves and others.
Coming between me and Jesus.

Mat 23:8-10
8- But be not ye called Rabbi: for �ONE� is your Master, even Christ;
and all ye are brethren.
10- Neither be ye called masters: for �ONE� is your Master, even Christ.

Master is often translated �leader.�

The Interlinear Bible -
Nor be called leaders, for one is your leader the Christ.

Phillips Modern English -
you must not let people call you leaders, you have only one leader, Christ.

Today’s English Version -
nor should you be called leader. your one and only leader is the Messiah.

Jesus told His disciples not to be called “leaders” and none did.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant

His disciples all called themselves “servants,”
None called themselves “leaders.” None? None.
None called themselves “servant-leader.” None.

Jesus warned us about making �the word of God�
of non effect through our traditions; Yes?
Mark 7:13

KJV - Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition…
ASV - Making �void� the word of God by your tradition…
NIV - Thus you �nullify� the word of God by your tradition…

IMO - Most of what goes on today is �Tradition of men.�

Why isn�t Jesus enough?
A. Amos Love on Wed, April 21, 2010

CS

What are the qualifications for leaders?

What are the qualifications for pastors?

You say pastor and elder are interchangeable.

Do �All� pastors��meet �All� the qualifications? If NOT?
Which qualifications are NOT important?
Which qualifications can we overlook?

If your �Pastor/Leader� doesn�t meet the qualifications?
Now, what do you do? Will he give up the �Title?� �Position?�

Is there any Bible reference where; pastor = leader = authority?

In the Bible, seems “Elders” were appointed from within.
Everyone in the fellowship knew them and their walk with the Lord.
They grew in the grace and knowledge of the Lord amongst brethren.
They were already “eldering.”

�overseeing Christians in the church, caring for them
like a shepherd cares for sheep, which includes feeding,
nurturing, correcting, and guiding.�

They were just brethren, servants, none had �Titles.�
None were called �pastor� or �leader.�
They were recognized for the giftings operating thru each.

Today, so called �pastor/leader/elders� come from �without.� Hirelings.
They have become paid professionals, going from place to place.

Most are depressed, have NO close friends and very bad marriages.
Most leave because they were deceived into thinking they are �leaders.�
And no one is following. Yuuup…

That�s the # 1 reason �pastors� leave the ministry. People won�t follow.

Jesus said, �My Sheep� hear �My Voice� and follow me.

You can�t serve two masters. Yes? Who is your master?

Pastor/leaders pay a horrible price. Check out these sites.

Mostly today - The �elders� in the congregation are �elected?�
(elected - where is that in the Bible?)
and serve a term of office, then another election. Oy Vey!
Either you got the goods or you don�t.

How do you suggest I find a �Pastor� who functions well?
When so many are struggling so?
When so many need; �feeding, nurturing, correcting, and guiding?�
And pastors have no place to go. Pastors can�t admit it to anyone.
After all, I�m the �Leader� the �authority.� teaching others how to live.

Pastor/leader - an impossible task - when you love Jesus… the truth…

Jesus loves me…
Curious on Wed, April 21, 2010

Amos,

thank you for the response. I would also like to thank you for your willingness to be transparent and dialogue with the rest of the people on the thread. That is sincerely appreciated.

When you said, “Pastors become that master, to themselves and others.
Coming between me and Jesus. ” that got me thinking… I do feel a bit better about the abuse that I went through. Even though it was tough and the person I dealt with thought MUCH of themselves I never once thought that they were trying to come between me and Jesus. Fortunately I’ve never seen that. In all my years in ministry and in ‘church life’ I have seen and heard of egos that get out of control, people that are blinded by their passion, and people that misunderstand their role but I’ve yet to see, hear about, or experience the “pastor’s become masters’ deal and I thank God for being spared that discouragement in that area…

I have another quick question. You’ve probably thought through it so I was wondering how you process Hebrews 13 (more specifically verses 7, 17, and 24). It outright says the word ‘leaders’-maybe not in the KJV but it definitely talks about ‘those that led you’ (which would be a ‘leader’) and ‘those who are over you who have spoken unto you the word of the Lord’-which is what our leaders do (whether leaders in the family, leaders in our children’s rooms, elders, etc…)...

Just curious to get your take on it. Again, I thank you for your willingness to be open with the rest of us about your perspective on this issue…
rev. k. a. christian on Thu, April 22, 2010

i’m baptist and was at the national ministers conference @ hampton university a few years back… and a preacher who was in the flesh but claimed to be in the Spirit… while he was preaching, trying to get folks hyped, he jumped off the stage and broke his leg… one don’t need discernment to know if he was in the spirit or not… The Holy Spirit won’t let u hurt yourself…