ChurchRater.com: How’s Your Church Doing?
- Posted on February 09, 2010
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- (48) comments
For example... here are some examples of what was written about one church.
Free juice. Free coffee. Sometimes free pastries. Free internet. You know, to check your email while worshipping the Lord.
It's like everyone is encouraged to consume caffeine during the so-called service, confusing the "presence of the Lord" with drugs.
Leather sofas, fireplaces, a coffee-shop area with high-top glass tables. Flatscreen monitors to see what's happening inside, in case you just can't pull yourself off the sofa to make it into the so-called church.
The "sanctuary" is really as state-of-the art soundstage, with jumbotron screens, movie theater seats, and cup-holders for your coffee.
By being so plugged into secular culture, the place is -- by definition -- unholy. By using the worst of consumerism to allegedly make a point about God, churches like Crossroads Community church do nothing but propagate blind acceptance of the status quo.
This church earned one star.
But, you can also respond to the ratings, as did one person to the rating above:
It doesn't take much of a read to discover that "XXXXXX" is a disturbed individual at many levels. There is a huge lack of self-awareness with this person. A read through his bio makes it clear that his self-image is shared by him and, I suspect, no one else. If he is a "writer" - then where has he been published outside of the internet - a place where anyone with a desire to type some words and hit send can be "published." Someone in their early 20s is not equipped to make the scathing, sweeping theological indictments he readily dishes out to churches he visits one time only in the XXXXX area. "XXXXXX" if you read this, get some therapy. If you can't afford it, check out county services for decent free options. You will discover that therapy plus meds can work wonders for those suffering with grandiosity.
So... what do YOU think about this church rating website?
Todd
Comments
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Helen on Wed, February 10, 2010
Leonard, we remove personal attacks against individuals. Otherwise I would say the best approach if a person sees a rating of their church which seems unfair is to post their own rating.
I don’t know why there seems to be such an assumption here that people will mostly use the site to ‘go off’ on churches. There is some criticism posted but also a lot of praise in the ratings we have so far.
And besides, if God likes a church do you really think a human website can bring it down no matter what’s posted on there? If it’s humans against God who is going to win?
Leonard on Wed, February 10, 2010
Help me understand the atheists that review? what is the purpose of having an atheist review ratings?
Leonard on Wed, February 10, 2010
Helen, after nearly 30 years of ministry, I personally have seen again and again that people will criticize when only a critique is necessary.
As for your reasoning at the end about God liking the church so much ... any study of humans against God can see that God ultimately wins simply because he is God. The issue isn’t who wins but who is fighting and who gets shot in the crossfire.
Helen on Wed, February 10, 2010
Leonard, if a church is hoping people who aren’t Christians will be interested in attending, they will care about feedback from those people about what would interesting them in attending/put them off. People who aren’t Christians includes atheists. And sometimes anyone who isn’t a regular attender - Christian or not - will notice things that people who belong to the church miss.
Atheists can tell many things just as well as Christians - for example, whether they receive a friendly welcome or not.
And they’re better at noticing things like whether the pastor’s comments about atheists are accurate
Talking about who gets shot is a bit overdramatic isn’t it? We’re talking about words on a website, not a battle with guns. And regarding those words didn’t Jesus say those who are persecuted for his sake are blessed? So it’s a win win isn’t it? Either you’re praised or you’re blessed. Well, maybe being praised is not a win in a spiritual/eternal sense, but anyway hopefully you get my point.
David Buckham on Wed, February 10, 2010
Helen,
When I say “Bride of Christ” I am not referring to the entirety of the human race. I am referring, in the broadest of terms, to those who have submitted to Jesus as BOTH Lord and Savior. I don’t know if people who post on Churchrater fall in the category or not. Does anyone know that? Last I checked, it is not our job to judge, but rather God’s.
When I say I care about the Bride of Christ, I care about preparing her for the wedding day, making her beautiful. Beautiful, not by my standards or any person’s standards (also read opinions), but by Christ’s standards (he talked much about the Kingdom of God and types it was composed of).
The purpose of a bride is a wedding. I don’t see Churchrater, in it’s current state, as preparing the Bride for her wedding, but rather critiquing Her…or rating her.
I have explained, in brief, my view on the Bride. Let me ask you now, am I missing what the Biblical understanding of this? Do you see a different role for the Bride?
I am enjoying getting to read this discussion. I feel this conversation is beneficial to all, and it has thus far been to me.
all about Christ,
David Buckham
Leonard on Wed, February 10, 2010
Helen, I do not think of it as over dramtic at all. About a year ago one of my kids heard someone say somethings about me as a pastor. It crushed them. They were shot.
I am blessed when persecuted and certainly do not see your site as persecution. My wife has been hurt more than once because people said something… wrote something… They are the ones caught in the crossfire.
New believers have their faith shaken when people are unduly critical or when their criticism is poorly communicated.
Words on a page have great potential to leave cuts and scrapes that are far too often unintended. I do not know you, you do not know me, but your words feel somewhat defensive and condescending. Why, because I do not know you. I am relatively sure you are a fantastic person, but without context, we scratch others unnecessarily.
I am also pretty sure the negative response to your site here doesn’t settle well with you.
your argument about a win is a win is kind of silly to me. It is almost as if you are saying, we will provide a place to give feedback and drop opinions, if they hurt you, then be blessed if they are not we then be blessed. this was a Greek form of argument used to bring indulgence and license. It is the rhetorical argument of Romans 6 when Paul says since sin makes grace look so good, lets sin so grace gets a chance to shine. Here the argument is used to say… Hey, we provide a service and if it hurts you get the blessing of bing persecuted…
My reading of the reviews ( I read a bunch) leads me to believe that many of the people rating a church do not attend that church. Is that accurate or did I just run into a bunch that were written by one time visitors?
As for Atheists reviewing, that is probably another post. thanks for the dialog,
David, I get what you are saying that is all about Christ but even so it involves me. He involved me. He did so through giving free will, providing gifts, supplying creativity to our brains, allowing subjective and objective thinking to run its course in us. Christ is the Head… he is in charge but he is the head of the body. I am intrinsically involved and my experiences do matter. I am not a fan of churchrater but I am a fan of feedback.
Sorry for the book…
David Buckham on Wed, February 10, 2010
Leonard,
Did I say somewhere in one of my posts that our opinions don’t matter? If so, I misspoke or wasn’t clear. I said they do, but when our opinions trump God’s opinions, which Churchrater in it’s present form allows for, then it is wrong.
all about Christ,
David Buckham
Helen on Wed, February 10, 2010
Leonard, sorry if I came across as condescending. That was not my intent.
If I sound defensive it’s more to do with my own issues than because I’m upset by criticism of ChurchRater. I’ve participated in various forms of Christian community in good faith and as a result have experienced some unfair and unkind treatment from some Christian leaders. As much as I have done my best to move past this it evidently still makes me touchy around Christian leaders sometimes.
If your family is being caught in the crossfire then isn’t it fair to say you’re the one whose choices have taken them into the firing zone and are keeping them there?
Yes people (Christians) shouldn’t be unkind - I wish they weren’t. But the evident reality is that some are - and sometimes in ways that will negatively affect your family. That’s something you can’t control, so hopefully you and your wife are agreed that it’s worth paying this price for you to continue in ministry. And hopefully your children will understand that choice later, if not now.
We do have a number of ratings from people rating their own churches as well as those from visitors/outsiders. Maybe you just didn’t happen on those when you browsed the site.
Helen on Wed, February 10, 2010
David, yes, I realized that if you were defining the Bride of Christ as humans it would only be those humans who meet the definition of Christian as best you understand it.
I don’t really see it as an either/or that either the Bride is being properly prepared or she is being subject to ratings on a website. I see it as a both/and.
Leonard on Thu, February 11, 2010
Helen, after reading your story and much of your thoughts about faith, God and church your role in this makes much more sense. I am sorry that you have been hurt by leaders in churches. I know those words do not ease the pain you have felt they are heart felt.
Knowing who you chat and dialog with helps in understanding the words being used. I hope my words were not offensive to you. I am sure that when Christians find out your story they must work hard to change your mind. I will not disrespect you by trying that.
I will say that I’d love to dialog anytime. My name live links to one of my blogs, it probably will at least give you a glimpse of my heart.
If you wish to dialog off this site, let me know and I will send you my e-mail.
I have no interest in arguing and even if I did, probably couldn’t keep up with you. Thanks. Leonard
Helen on Thu, February 11, 2010
Hi Leonard,
Thanks for taking time to read some of my site and for caring what I’ve been through. Your words didn’t offend me. I took a quick look at your site yesterday evening and I did see your heart - it’s quite evident there that you’re a caring person.
I have a couple of local pastor-friends who have been kind and respectful to me - you sound like them. I’m in an ongoing dialog with one of them.
On my better days I don’t like to argue either
I probably don’t have time to talk with you one on one but I’m sure if I did I would only be further convinced of the good qualities I already glimpsed in you.
I can agree to disagree with you and others about ChurchRater. A number of pastors have already asked us to help them gather feedback. I’m pleased they’re interested and I hope they find it helpful. (Maybe from their perspective they might even consider it helpful in preparing the Bride, David - who knows?)
JOB on Thu, February 11, 2010
It’s a shame that this service/website is needed. It shows me how distant leadership/lay people have become from each other. In a normal church, leadership opens themselves to criticism and lay people use but don’t abuse their voices and it doesn’t need to be handled on the blogs or a website. The pendelum has swung so far to the other side that almost any voice other then leadership is viewed as unprofitable “criticism”. Some of this attitude has been reflected in the comment stream.
Other then the fact the creators found the website necessary I am very troubled that there is a seperate category for “un-believer”. I am sorry, but just by giving them their own platform to voice their opinion you’re indirectly approving of their lack of faith in Christ. Also let’s consider that the Bible describes unbelievers as enemies of Christ, not as welcome participants in the direction of a His church, not as long as they remain in their unbelief.
Peter Hamm on Thu, February 11, 2010
JOB writes [In a normal church, leadership opens themselves to criticism and lay people…] Lots of churches, unfortunately, have leadership that doesn’t listen to the people. And lots of lay people (i hate that term, but…) have plenty of complaints and feedback that have nothing to do with how a church should function.
Then you say [I am sorry, but just by giving them their own platform to voice their opinion you�re indirectly approving of their lack of faith in Christ.] Wow… that is a very telling and possibly true comment. We should be careful as we keep dialog open with unbelievers that we don’t tacitly approve of their unbelief.
JOB on Thu, February 11, 2010
One other thought, forgive me if someone already made this suggestion, but instead of making the comments public, it would be better, IMO, to have the comments sent to an email address. It serves the same purpose.
Leonard on Thu, February 11, 2010
JOB, The church as you know is pretty messy. some of, maybe most of, the new testament would not be written if the church was as it should be. It is not.
I am not convinced this service is needed. We do not need McDonald’s but millions upon millions of people use it. It is there but to call it needed is in my opinion a bit of a stretch.
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