Ed Young Takes the Heat
- Posted on February 20, 2007
- Viewed 694 timess
- (26) comments
You can read the whole article here...
Some noteable quoteables:
Ed Young:
“...Our conference is a leadership conference; it’s not a theological conference. We will bring in, and we have brought in, a number of people whom I personally would not agree with theologically. In fact, I think Bishop Jakes is a great communicator, a great leader… I love Bishop Jakes, but we’ve had many people in Fellowship Church over the years ... whom I would not agree with concerning all of their theology. We’ve interviewed people here from Jerry Jones [Dallas Cowboys owner], we’re in a series of interviews right now with Hulk Hogan, all sorts of people. But when you have a leadership conference, I think it’s important to hear from people in different realms, different companies, different churches. So I embrace it. I think it’s a great thing. I don’t see it as a negative thing at all.”
Jerry Johnson (President of Criswell College):
“...Some [pastors] might not have the discernment to separate the meat from the bones there, and really, to beware of the heresy—and that is a heresy against classic Christianity. We are not talking about a Baptist distinctive or even a Reformation distinctive. That is a heresy going against classic Christianity, the confessions and the creeds… Christian fellowship stands and falls on [the trinitarian doctrine]. Partnership in ministry is jeopardized by the heresy of that doctrine, according to First, Second and Third John… It’s confusing. Christian leadership and pastoral leadership includes and perhaps should be driven by theology, particularly, ‘Who is God? Who is Jesus?’ And so it doesn’t matter what your techniques of leadership and style of leadership and philosophy of leadership are if you don’t know who God is. I think that’s an important point. God is the first prerequisite to good Christian leadership.”
FOR DISCUSSION: OK… what are your thoughts on this one?
UPDATE: I’ve been asked by a few people for my take on this one… so here goes: I think (am pretty positive) that this is the result of a campaign of at least one ‘discerning’ website. They’ve been trying to stir the dust up on this one for over a month now. It appears that they’ve found their way in to someone in the SBC Texas office. I think that it’s sad that Ed’s own denomination and convention is speaking and writing against him. I really don’t see the big deal; as someone said here, it’s a conference on leadership, and that’s what TD will be speaking on. To think that I have nothing that I can learn from Jakes is kind of pompous, I think. Now if it were a conference on proper interpretation of the Trinity, I would understand all the outcry; but it’s not, so take a deep breath and let it out slowly. 
Todd
Ed Young, Jr. is taking some heat from some fellow Southern Baptists over the appearance of T. D. Jakes at his annual C3 Conference. According to an article on the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention's website: "Pentecostal mega-church pastor T.D. Jakes of Dallas, often criticized for holding a non-trinitarian view of God, will speak for the second time during Fellowship Church of Grapevine’s Creative Church Conference (C3) for pastors. Jakes will appear at the Southern Baptist congregation Feb. 22-23 along with fellow preachers Mark Driscoll, pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, LifeChurch pastor Craig Groeschel of Edmond, Okla., and Houston pastor and former SBC president Edwin Young, father of Fellowship pastor Ed Young..."
Comments
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Camey on Tue, February 20, 2007
I first heard about this a couple of weeks ago….... Ed Young Jr is known for “sharing the stage” with all types of people as he stated. This is in keeping with who he is as a leader. People expect this sort of thing from him.
If a person doesn’t agree with TD Jakes and doesn’t want to hear him speak because they cannot follow his leadership - don’t attend. This particular conference draws people from many different arenas. This is not a Southern Baptist Leadership Conference. It has never been touted as such to my understanding.
This actually reminds me of you, Todd. You post articles from various sources because you find them interesting. You do not necessarily always agree lock stock and key with every view expressed by the individuals who wrote them. If we cannot learn from others - can others really learn from us as well?
I was trying to stay silent. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Peter Hamm on Tue, February 20, 2007
Sticky wicket. The “watchdogs” have been complaining about this for a while. And on this one point, they may have something. I understand where Young is coming from, but I’m uncomfortable.
The watchdogs may, in this one case, have a point… Am I really saying that? I was uncomfortable with Jakes at the Summit a few years ago for this reason, and then he wasn’t as compelling a leadership speaker as I thought he was anyway.
Derek on Tue, February 20, 2007
I think it is wonderful that Ed Young is sharing “his stage” with fellow Dallas pastor T.D. Jakes. I think this does a lot of good in that it cross the denominational Baptist-Pentecostal divide and the racial White-Black divide. It is something to be celebrated and not criticized.
I am passionately trinitarian in my ministry and thinking. I believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is of supreme importance. It is true that Jakes comes from a oneness Pentecostal background, but I have never heard him be dogmatic about the oneness doctrine. If he was on a crusade to denounce the doctrine of the trinity in the promotion of the oneness doctrine, then I would have questions about him speaking at the C3 conference. He isn’t like that, so i think there should be no concern. Furthermore, I think it is good to build relationships with oneness Christians in order to help them see the truth of in the doctrine of the trinity.
Derek
Kristy on Tue, February 20, 2007
I saw T.D. Jakes at this conference last year and he had some incredible leadership points. As a volunteer at the conference also, I heard many of the pastors speak about how Jakes was amazing and really spoke to them about leadership. Also, just from hearing him speak, I have no doubt that the man loves God passionately. You put great leadership skills and a passion for God together and you make a great speaker for this conference. I was very excited to see he was coming back again this year.
Wayne on Tue, February 20, 2007
Good for Young an innovative thinker who is a blessing to leaders around the world for embracing another leader of equally significant impact. Mr. Johnson ought to truly research Christian histroy and the Bible, he might be suprised to find that Bishop Jakes Theology isn’t the one that is amiss.
Bruce on Tue, February 20, 2007
Much to do about nothing…........just another non-issue that the watchblogs stirred up….....must of been a slow heresy day.
Having said that….........I am not a TD Jakes OR Ed Young fan. But, they are my brothers in Christ.
Here we are two thousand years removed from the death of Christ. Orthodox Christianity is solidly trinitarian.
Have you ever wondered about the early Church, the apostles, etc…......how many of them were trinitarian? Let’s not forget that trinitarianism is a doctrine that developed over time. It was not part of the early Church confession of faith.This is not the only doctrine that can be viewed this way. (views of the atonement would be another among many)
Is Jakes wrong? Yes
Is he a Christian? Yes
Bruce
Rusty on Tue, February 20, 2007
>Mr. Johnson ought to truly research Christian histroy and the Bible, he might be suprised to find that Bishop Jakes Theology isn’t the one that is amiss.
Okay, that’s statement is way too provocative to just throw out there and not defend. Are you saying that Trinitarian theology is the abberation throughout Christian history and the Bible?
Perry Noble on Tue, February 20, 2007
Todd,
I usually stay quiet on this site…I get enough heat on my own. BUT…dude, I’ve got to speak out on this one.
First of all let me say that Ed is a friend of mine…so my comments will be one sided. He loves Jesus, loves the church, and loves people. ONE of THE reasons that Fellowship Church has been so successful is because Ed learns from all types of people—EVEN the ones who do not think just like him!
Somewhere along the way I think Christians develop a sort of elite view as to what they believe…and the danger in that is they feel that if someone doesn’t believe EXACTLY like they believe—then nothing can be learned. I would say that if you hang out with people who believe exactly like you believe on every issue then you are a pretty shallow human being.
I do believe in the trinity with all my heart. In fact, if people will do their flippin’ research they will see that Fellowship did a series on the Trinity several years ago entitled “Tri-God.” (So much for them being shallow!) It was an incredible series where Ed unpacked one of the most difficult issues in the church to explain.
If TD doesn’t believe in the trinity then that is something I trust he and the Lord will work out. I believe he is a godly man…listens to God…and that God can tell Him what he does and does not need to believe. HOWEVER, to say that someone can’t learn from TD Jakes because he has a view that is different than theirs—that is arrogance in its purest form.
I am trying to expand my own circles—heck…I’ve even entered an e-mail dialogue with a few guys from the emerging church!!! (And that is stretching me!)
Sorry about the novel…just wanted to put my two cents in—especially since I am heading that way tomorrow!!! People can criticize all they want—but the conference is going to freakin’ rock!!!
kent on Tue, February 20, 2007
I put this in the boat as the Leadership Summit. people who have nothing to do with putting on the event have the freedom to complain and criticize those have done the work for the offending event. Why would anyone think that Ed Young doesn’t know what he is doing?
It gets old watching the Body of Christ attack itself. It is time we got back to the business at hand and cut each other a little slack.
Rusty on Tue, February 20, 2007
I agree that it’s unfortunate when the Body of Christ attacks itself but this is a different issue than most church, denomination or theological squabbles. This is a fundamental of the faith. If we’re going to use the analogy of a body attacking itself, I would consider this an area of the immune system kicking into action.
The Trinity is not something that we can agree to disagree on. The Trinity is (or at least should be) the foundation for the very basics of what we believe about God - eternally Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I’m not arguing that Jakes should or shouldn’t speak at the conference; I haven’t thought through that enough. But to dismiss critics so easily for being “divisive” or “Pharisees” about this issue misses the entire point. There are some things that we can agree to disagree on. Absolutely. The Trinity is not one of them. There are some kinds of innovation that don’t even belong at an Innovative Church Conference. Those criticising Young are simply stating that this kind theological innovation is inconsistent with Christian doctrine.
The old saying is “In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity.” The Trinity is an essential. We must be united in standing for truth. That doesn’t mean that we act uncharitably toward Jakes and others who hold the heretical view of the Trinity but it does mean that we draw a line as to what legitimate Christian doctrine is.
Grace and peace,
Rusty
Leonard on Tue, February 20, 2007
I am familiar with the oneness doctrine and if you were to read the statement of faith on the Potters House web site this is not a straight forward oneness approach. In fact is is almost trinitarian dare we say. I say Ed, go for it. I do know that TD Jakes history is oneness but I am not sure his present is. Give his doctrinal statement a read.
Bruce on Tue, February 20, 2007
Rusty,
I seriously doubt anyone in this discussion is going to minimize the importance of the trinity. But, the doctrine of the trinity was not a part of the faith once delivered to the saints. The early Church had little or no understanding of the trinity. First century Christians were primarily Jews and as such monotheistic.
Too many people view doctrine in a vacuum. They forget that most doctrines that we say are essential were developed over long periods of time.
Since many Evangelicals have a disdain for Church history they are forced to continually re-invent the wheel. They reject tradition and the witness of the historic Church, thus they have only their own current interpretation to stand on (instead of that good three legged stool)
The historic Church condemned modalism as heresy. I accept their witness. I also affirm that the doctrine of the trinity is the hardest of all doctrines to understand.
TD Jakes comes from a Oneness Pentecostal background. Three distinctives stand out. Modalism,Baptism for the remission of sins, and speaking in tongues as evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost. As a Baptist (well I am kinda one anyway) I reject all three of these and consider them doctrinal error. But, the witness of the Church is on Jakes side when it comes to baptism. Most Churches hold to some form of baptism for the remission of sins. Baptists are definitely the minority on the baptism issue. Should we not then be called heretics?
The history of the Church is ugly and filled with contradiction. We cherry pick what we want from history and we reject what doesn’t fit our systematic theology.
Can one be a heretic and still be a Christian? How much error is allowed until one is no longer a Christian? (or the Baptist two step they were never saved anyway!) Is preaching a gospel of works heresy? Yes. Then the Apostle Peter was a heretic for preaching , and falling in with those who said you had to be circumcised to be saved. Keep in mind, depending on dating, Peter is rebuked by Paul over this some 20 years after the death of Christ. This would make Peter a mature Christian yet he fell into error.
Bruce
Derek on Tue, February 20, 2007
Rusty,
I agree with you the the Trinity is essential. I believe the the Trinity is the grammar of the Christian life, that a trinitiarian vision should shape our view of church life, ministry, relationships, etc. I think that the issue with Jakes is that he (to my knowledge) comes from a oneness background, but does not necessarily preach oneness doctrine. So how should the orthodox trinitarian church respond? Should we shun him and writing articles and blog against him or should we embrace him? I have struggled with this, because I belong to an association that allows oneness Pentecostals in the group. I was first offended, but then I realized that it is better that we stay connected and keep the trinitiarian dialogue open. For Jakes, he isn’t even discussing theology, so that isn’t really an issue.
I think that a lot of us have grown weary of the watchdogs and watchblogs that point out every little point of doctrine that they deem as heretical in other ministers. It is not that theology is not important. It is important and it should be the leading partner in the dance between biblical faithfulness and missional/cultural connectivity. The issue with the watchdogs/blogs is the spirit behind their “attacks.” They do not want theological dialogue; they want a fight. And many of us are tired of watching Christians duke it out…we want to get on with the work of the kingdom.
Derek
Derek on Tue, February 20, 2007
Leonard is right that the Potter’s House statement is not straightforward or dogmatically oneness.
From The Potter’s House Belief Statement:
God—There is one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in three Manifestations: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
The word “manifestations” is tricky. It could be interpreted as modalism or it could be interpreted within the orthodox tradition of “persons.”
From the United Pentecostal Church International (UPCI) doctrinal views:
In distinction to the doctrine of the Trinity, the UPCI holds to a oneness view of God. It views the Trinitarian concept of God, that of God eternally existing as three distinctive persons, as inadequate and a departure from the consistent and emphatic biblical revelation of God being one.
The UPCI teaches that the one God who revealed Himself in the Old Testament as Jehovah revealed himself in His Son, Jesus Christ. Thus Jesus Christ was and is God. In other words, Jesus is the one true God manifested in flesh, for in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (John 1:1-14; I Timothy 3:16; Colossians 2:9).
While fully God, Jesus was also fully man, possessing a full and true humanity. He was both God and man. Moreover, the Holy Spirit is God with us and in us. Thus God is manifested as Father in creation and as the Father of the Son, in the Son for our redemption, and as the Holy Spirit in our regeneration.
The UPCI is the largest oneness denomination is the US. They clearly hold a theological opinion that seperates them from the historic orthodox stream. The Potter’s House does not make this strong of a statement on their webpage. He does the term “manifestation,” which is used by the UPCI.
Derek
jerry on Tue, February 20, 2007
Lets all get in our safe little christian world and not contaminate ourselves with those that dont agree with us. If we are real good at it no one will hear what we have to share. I dare say let us not develop any relantionships that might allow us to share Christ with others.
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