Giving Rick Warren the What Not…
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Thu, June 05, 2008
- Viewed 498
- (61) comments so far
You can read the rest of the article here. I’d love to hear what you think, good or bad…
Last month, Rick Warren invited a good number of his online detractors to his Purpose Driven Conference. When Bob DeWaay got his invitation, he declined (even though Saddleback offered to pay his travel and entire trip). When asked to reconsider, Bob says, "since the Bible says that we should be ready to give a reason for our hope in the gospel (1Peter 3:15) I decided to go." He writes an article (entitled "My Visit to Ask Rick Warren to Preach Christ) over at the Christian Worldview Network. Here's how he starts off:
"I arrived in time on Thursday to hear the last hour and a half of the conference, which featured Warren promoting his PEACE plan. It was typical of many other Warren speeches I have listened to. He spoke about meeting with world leaders and how he plans to help them solve problems in their countries. He gave reasons why 1 billion Christians are the best hope of solving the world’s biggest problems. What was lacking was any commitment to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ clearly to all people. That was exactly what I planned to urge Warren to do when I met him. Listening to his speech only reinforced that commitment.
After the speech (and some seriously loud, ear-splitting music) I was able to meet up with fellow Warren critic, Mr. Chris Rosebrough, who had attended each day of the conference. We waited for about an hour while Warren held a press conference—he eventually appeared for our meeting with about a half dozen others.
At the beginning of our meeting Warren asked us to share our “stories” with him. Both of us had come out of bad doctrine and faulty movements to become gospel centric. I shared my experience of learning church growth theory at seminary and showed him a first edition copy of his book The Purpose Driven Church that was required reading for me in 1996. I also shared how discouraging it was to study church growth teaching when our inner city church was shrinking at the time. I shared how I found hope and inspiration from John MacArthur and that I chose his ministry model rather than church growth theory..."
Comments
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Sam on Thu, June 05, 2008
Derek, have you read Bob Dewaay’s book, Redefining Christianity where he takes a look at Rick Warren and the PD model?
In your discernment and evaluation of Bob DeWaay, did you seek to totally understand his position by reading his book or did you base your opinion on one paragraph?
I wouldnt want you to appear “foolish” by not trying to fully understand Bob DeWaay’s position before you dismiss Bob DeWaay’s research and book as “foolish”
Peter Hamm on Thu, June 05, 2008
[It is the work of the Holy Spirit through the hearing of the Gospel that regenerates hearts. Methodology does not do this. We neuter God’s power in effect when we think the spread of the gospel relies on man’s ability or lack thereof.]
I wouldn’t disagree. But we still have examples of the message being preached at different times in different ways by different people to good “effect” all over the Gospels and Acts.
We are straining at gnats, brothers and sisters…
Derek on Thu, June 05, 2008
Sam,
I haven’t read Dewaay’s book. My comments were not directed so much at Dewaay, but MacArthur. I have read JM’s review of both charismatics and church growth folks and I have listen to his critique of the emergent guys – and I have found him consistently doing bad research. He seems to have a pre-formed judgment on an issue and his research is little more than ammunition gathering to prove his point.
I have exhausted myself with trying to understand why those who follow the JM “model of ministry,” don’t like Christians who are not like them. [insert sarcastic smirk here]
I am not trying to understanding these watch dog, discernment, JM followers. I am not trying to understanding them and, unlike DeWaay I am not writing book exposing their errors. I have given the RW haters over to the Lord, because before their own master they will stand or fall.
I agree with Peter and others in this thread that we are straining at gnats and wrangling with words and getting no where…
Derek
Leonard Lee on Thu, June 05, 2008
To assume that using methods more in keeping with our culture and the language of our culture is not how the Spirit leads would not in my opinion be a solid approach to either the proclamation of the Gospel or the bible.
I disagree with the statement that “Purpose Driven is about making a version of Christianity that is inoffensive to the world and thus attractive to people so they attend church.”
I think that is where we get our panties in a bunch too often. It is not about getting people to church, nor is it about making the gospel inoffensive.
It it about reaching people with the Gospel by speaking the language of the people.
CS on Thu, June 05, 2008
Leonard Lee:
“I disagree with the statement that “Purpose Driven is about making a version of Christianity that is inoffensive to the world and thus attractive to people so they attend church.””
I remember listening to Rick Warren doing the core PDL program at Saddleback in 2007. I was eager to hear him present his message from his pulpit, himself, as he usually delivers about only half of the sermons at his church. As he led into the first sermon, he shared with his congregation how many copies of the book he had sold, how many churches participated in PD programs, and its effects all around the world. It was a pretty impressive CV overall.
Then he said something interesting in continuing the list. He said that the PDL program had been used in places including major sports teams, big-name companies like Ford, and talked about it being within the walls of companies. The confines of the program were not limited to ministries and Christians, but were active in corporate America as well.
Now, I’m not a lawyer, nor did Warren explain more in-depth about the use of the programs in companies, but this sends up a big red flag. With EOE laws, companies generally cannot use religious materials as a part of their corporate activities. So, we have two options.
The one option is that we have multiple organizations that did something that could be in breach of laws and practices of religious activities in the workplace. If this was the case, I doubt that Warren would have been contacted about it nor would he have talked about it in a potentially public forum with a cavalier voice. Or, if it was isolated to small pockets of employees who did this on their free time, that would make a statement like how it was being used in a company or on a sports team a half-truth to bolster his credentials—better known as lying.
The other option is that the content of PDL is, in fact, presenting a version of Christianity that is so inoffensive to the world that it could be put into the hands of employees, managers, and CEOs, and no one would know the difference. So as these people are told that their lives have purpose, the message of the Gospel is subsided to the point where it would be no offense at all, which is not the true Gospel.
I would have to side with the latter, and agree with the assertion of the author of the article.
—
CS
bishopdave on Thu, June 05, 2008
CS, is it possible that the reason that PDL went into those places was NOT because it was inoffensive, but was in fact UNDERSTANDABLE.
CS, I could also (in using your words) say: The other option is that the content of PDL is, in fact, presenting a version of Christianity that is so clear to the world that it could be put into the hands of employees, managers, and CEOs, and everyone could know the truth. So as these people are told that their lives have purpose, the message of the Gospel is illuminated to the point where it would be easily understood by all, which is the true Gospel.” How do you know that’s not what happened?
We used to rejoice about going into work places and sports teams with the gospel; we even called it “missions.”
Sorry guys, but I’ve read PDL three times, it’s solid.
Going by your standards, the churches planted by Paul were shallow and ineffective, due to their carnality and division.
There. This issue is settled and I’m done.
CS on Thu, June 05, 2008
bishopdave:
“How do you know that’s not what happened?”
I would note the lack of lawsuits, press coverage, and outrage in the media as a guess that it didn’t happen that way. In a world where a lawn decoration of a nativity scene on public property or a Bible on someone’s desk results in discrimination lawsuits, news reports, and outcries, I couldn’t see something that presents an accurate view of the Gospel entering into a corporation with hundreds of thousands of employees and someone not raising their voice in protest.
I mean, if a CEO came out and said, “All of you managers will participate in a program with religious teaching and values throughout it,” I bet that people would be lining the desks of lawyers left and right. Would you agree with that?
“We used to rejoice about going into work places and sports teams with the gospel; we even called it “missions.””
I still rejoice at these efforts, too. And, there is a difference between it being sanctioned by the company as a whole and sets of individuals and small groups gathering on their own. This ties back into my other possible claim of exaggeration and half-truths in saying who used the PDL by Warren.
I sense a rabbit trail coming from my posting, though…
—
CS
Robert Pooley on Thu, June 05, 2008
Sometimes i wonder how much people would get done for the gospel… and how much better the message would be spread…. if they gave even half as much attention to that as they do slamming their brothers and sisters… It seems some people spend all their time and energy slamming Warren and others… The arguments are weak… Go share the Gospel… stop wasting your precious time on this planet slamming others.
Jermayn Parker on Thu, June 05, 2008
I agree that it is good Rick to listen to his detractors.
I tend to agree with the author as I find some of Ricks words etc too not God centered.
and I cannot stand ps who plug their own books, You selling at an amway meeting or preaching?
JOB on Thu, June 05, 2008
Robert,
I’ve commented twice in this thread and it took me approx 2 minutes to type my thoughts probablly the same amount of time it took you to write yours. If my time is wasted then so was yours. Just a thought.
Robert Pooley on Thu, June 05, 2008
Job,
There are people who spend all their time on slamming ministries and ministers… They devote entire websites to it… and hours and hours of time invested. Those are the people I am referring to… If your effort and content is all about slamming other people… then your time probably is wasted.. How much more productive could you be using the same time to share the gospel with others instead of tearing down others.
Just a thought.
Abaddon on Thu, June 05, 2008
What not me?
TO on Thu, June 05, 2008
Why are we so concerned with making sure we “offend” people to make sure the Gospel is actually preached? It seems like we go overboard to be “offensive” and then figure anyone who was not offended and came to a saving faith in Christ must not be a “real” conversion because they were not offended first. What about the times when Paul said people received his message without mention of offense? This is the problem we have in our society now and why the church has become marginalized. We have chosen to make offense the issue instead of the gospel and used rejection as a badge of honor or litmus test.
Because of this we “suspect” any ministry where growth is taking place because if it was attracting sinners then it must be watered down because no one in their right mind would attend. We have turned salt and light into sandpaper and laser beams. Jesus said they would know we were his followers by our love.
Ricky on Fri, June 06, 2008
Kevin says:
“I’ve been to the PDC conference and he does preach Jesus.”
First, I doubt it.
Secondly, the PDC conferences are for “PASTORS” and other CHRISTIAN workers.
DeWaay makes the point, quite accurately, that Warren doesn’t preach to those most in need…the LOST.
Wake up, Kevin and stop worshiping the Almighty Rick.
Ricky on Fri, June 06, 2008
Kevin:
“I rejoice in what God is doing through Rick Warren,”
I’d be very careful about placing God’s fingerprints on Warren’s works.
People could say the same thing about numerous other “Warrens” throughout history (i.e., Jim Jones, et al) that ultimately ended in misery.
Unlike most of us, size doesn’t matter to God, which is why he chose Israel in the Old Testament to proclaim His glory.
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