“He Will [Remain our Pastor] Unless He’s Somehow Convicted”
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Thu, June 19, 2008
- Viewed 96
- (29) comments so far
You can read the whole article here.
OK folks… I have LOTS of questions on this one.
First of all, this goes on in churches ALL THE TIME. I was a part of a church that had allegations against the senior pastor. Those allegations were backed up by massive amounts of evidence. Yet the church leadership looked beyond every bit of evidence, believed the pastor, and arranged for a quiet transition for him to another church. People in the church were none the wiser (and still aren’t).
Enough of my personal venting… here are my questions:
1. When there is an allegation, how much investigation should be done by church leaders? Should they just take the pastor’s word, or should they somehow do a full investigation immediately?
2. Is some wrongdoing is found, how public should the results be? Should a case like this (sex with an underage girl) be kept quiet from the congregation?
3. If a termination of employment is needed, what reason(s) should be given?
4. And what responsibility does the church leadership have in the pastor’s future? Should they speak up if the pastor moves on to a new church?
5. How would you respond to the comment in the title of this article? “He will remain our pastor unless he’s somehow convicted?” Does this person not realize that, at this point, this church and its members have lost any/all influence or testimony in the community?
6. How do you prepare leadership of a church for something like this. In every church I’ve seen this happen in, the leaders are totally taken for a loop. Most cannot believe their pastor could be capable of such sin or hypocrisy. (Hey, guess what… we’re ALL capable of it!) This unbelief caused them to overlook evidence, choose sides, and discount people who are not the one who did wrong. How do you fix that?
7. And finally… what if this is a wrong accusation after all? How do you deal with that? What if, after your investigation, you find that there actually IS no evidence, or evidence to clear the pastor; yet the media and courts are already in battle mode. Do you stand behind the pastor, knowing that your church will be tarnished in the community’s eyes regardless?
Alrighty… enough answers. You can tell this one hit a little personally, only because I’ve lived it, and heard way too many horror stories of people that have lived it.
OH… one last question… how would you feel (and what would you do) if you were the father of this 17 (then 16) year old girl?
I’d love to hear your response and thoughts!
BTW… This pastor is still on the church’s website here. You can even watch his welcome message.
A sad story out of Fort Worth, TX. According to the Star-Telegram, It began in February when the father overheard his 17-year-old daughter talking inappropriately over the phone.
On the other end of the line, the father said he later learned, was James "Jay" Virtue Robinson IV, pastor of Southwood Baptist Church, which the family had been attending for more than a decade.
The girl acknowledged that she had had a sexual relationship with the 31-year-old pastor.
The outraged father told the church council and several church members. But Robinson, pastor of the church since October 2006, repeatedly denied his accusations.
Comments
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Andy McAdams on Thu, June 19, 2008
Well, sorry Todd I’m going to pass (for the moment) on answering your questions.
At this time I’d like to say, as a pastor and former law enforcement officer, “where there is smoke there is normally fire.” I doubt very much when the father hears his daughter speaking on the phone in an inappropriate manner that all she could come up with was “the pastor”, unless it was the truth. And for him to say he is only guilty for being her “best friend” only supports this to me. I’m sorry if I seem to be a skeptic and not giving the benefit of the doubt to him, but I don’t believe him.
The idea of armed guards at the church is sad indeed, not to mention the threat of church discipline if people talk about what’s going on. What do you expect? BTW…they are rent a cops and have no authority and I’d think that removing people from worship for something they say or think is a real violation of the Constitution.
This has divided this church and he simply wants to hold on to his reputation rather then the reputation of Christ’s Church.
I also find it sad that a board member says, “we are going to err on the side of the pastor.” If you’re going to err, it’s wrong no matter what and what about this girl?”
I’m steamed to say the least. I’ve heard this story too many times. If the girl was speaking on the phone to just some young boy she would have far less ramifications from her father then telling him it was the pastor.
Jerry on Thu, June 19, 2008
I agree with you, Tood, that this church body’s tesitmony in the community is toast. There are so many levels of hypocrisy that it reinforces the “world’s” view of churches and Christians in general.
To prevent those with whom you disagree from even attending a worship service, (and I’m doubtful how much worship could be possible while such an issue remains un-resolved ) is unconscienable! Jesus never turned away any of the pharisees, and who among us hasn’t had moments in our lives when our walk was not in agreement with Him?
My prayers are for the church that its board may be filled with God’s wisdom, and not their own, so they may handle this in a firm, loving manner. I pray also for the reconciliation (which will surely take a miricale!) of the members of the congregation with one another.
Pastor Dan on Thu, June 19, 2008
sad… on so many levels….
Eric Joppa on Thu, June 19, 2008
After reading the article, I still don’t think there is a ton of public info that makes him look innocent. The phone calls and texts, seem suspicious.
I am a Student Pastor, and I have been called and have texted back and forth with girls in my group, but I never initiate contact with them. To be honest, I try not to interact with female students outside of our regular meeting times to avoid any accusations. Probably to a fault. I have seen and heard this scenario too often.
The thing that makes me wonder about his innocence is the way he has blocked people from coming in. It seems a little Gestapo to me.
But what if he is innocent? IDK, but I know that this has already hurt the cause of Christ in that church and community. Sad.
-E
Pastor Chris on Thu, June 19, 2008
Sex with an underage girl being a crime, I’d start by leaving it to the proper authorities to investigate. If they found insufficient evidence to prosecute, then the trustees will have to do that discernment (is it better for the church for this pastor to go or stay and what will our recommendation etc. say?
Not only is it very likely that this girl is telling the truth, it’s likely that there have been other girls, and that at least some will come forward when they hear that they are not the only one. At that point the deliberations of the trustees will be simplified.
This does happen all the time. And it skews…often for years to come… the faith life of all it touches.
Leonard Lee on Thu, June 19, 2008
I dispute that it happens all the time but it does happen way too much. It is sad and really Pi$$e$ me off. I used symbols so as not to offend anyone.
Ryan on Thu, June 19, 2008
I grew up in this church. My dad still goes there. He was telling me all of this just the other day and I told them that they had done a wonderful job keeping it out of the news. Guess I spoke too soon.
Ryan on Thu, June 19, 2008
PS. It’s kinda sick to me that I got the official news from feeding this blog even though the story appeared in my local paper.
not that it’s sick of you to post it, just kinda nauseating that this is how I found out.
Andy McAdams on Thu, June 19, 2008
Ryan…it almost always comes out through the local media and then grows from there. The media likes to report these things. What’s sad is…it just gives one more reason for people to reject the gospel and keep away from the church.
bishopdave on Thu, June 19, 2008
This is a good time to check your church’s constitution and by-laws. How is your church allowed to legally operate? Can they just hire security and banish you without a congregational meeting? Is there a provision or process for investigating or even suspending with or without pay while staff is investigated?
It may be boring, but church policies and bylaws at least give you a foothold in combating these situations.
DanielR on Thu, June 19, 2008
AAARRRRGGHHH!!!!!!
OK, I feel better now.
When asked by the police Pastor Robinson agreed to a polygraph and during that polygraph Robinson denied any sexual contact with the girl. The arrest warrant affidavit stated that afterward, when Robinson was told that the examination showed “significant deception,” he asked what would happen to him if the sex all happened after the girl was 17 and his attorney ended the conversation at that point.
And this is OK with the church board? That would certainly be evidence in court, is it not evidence to the church board?
If a church wants to stand by a pastor couldn’t they let him take a leave of absence or suspend him (with pay) until the charges are investigated. But don’t announce that until he’s actually convicted he gets to continue to minister to the youth of the church. I mean, come on, what would be wrong with saying “We love you and believe in you, but until this is cleared up you don’t get to teach”?
And armed security guards barring people and forcibly evicting people from the church services?
And all church members are invited to Pastor Robinson’s May 17th wedding? Is the wedding is still on?
Ouch, another black eye. :(
Andy McAdams on Thu, June 19, 2008
bishopdave…Most church constitutions have a prevision for keeping people away “after” they have had due process of discipline. Seldom from simply talking about something or giving an opinion.
To have armed guards is sad indeed, but unless people are “properly” disciplined from a church they have no right to keep people out.
When I made my comment about being against the Constitution in my earlier post, I meant the Constitution of the United States that gives people “freedom of speech” and “freedom to worship.” I think adding removal of worshipers that don’t agree with you or make comments is adding more fuel to this fire and indeed opening the church up to a law suit.
DanielR….I also noticed that this pastor is going to get married? I guess love is blind…but does it also have to be stupid?
To me add the comment about sex after the girls is 17 and the fact that the girls quickly told her father that it was the pastor on the phone that she was having the inappropriate conversation with tells me a lot. I can only say, he is lucky I’m not on the jury that will certainly be listening to all of this soon.
He needs to confess and accept what will surely be a lesser plea and get counseling. Oh…that’s another thing. Why would the church board offer him counseling if he didn’t do anything wrong?
bishopdave on Thu, June 19, 2008
Andy,
all I was referring to was a church’s constitution. Whe n we hear of a church powerless against its pastor or board, what policies have they enacted (written) that enables that? this is a prime example. Who allowed the board to have this much power that it neuters a church’s ability to take action? You said, “Most church constitutions have a prevision for keeping people away “after” they have had due process of discipline. Seldom from simply talking about something or giving an opinion. “ Right, so why did that happen here? Again, check your church’s bylaws and principles. I won’t get into legal challenges vs. 1 Corinthians ban on suing Christians, but the law will support a church that operates according to its incorporated bylaws.
Randy Ehle on Thu, June 19, 2008
Doesn’t scripture say something about striving to maintain a pure conscience (Acts 24:16)? And that an elder must have a good reputation with outsiders? (The emphasis is mine; the words are God’s, through Paul - 1 Tim 3:7) These two passages suggest that a church council needs to take a very hard look at accusations - brought appropriately - and deal with them strongly. I suggest that, in church leadership, there is no such thing as “innocent until proven guilty”. We absolutely need to take caution that that not be abused, and following Paul’s guidance (Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 1 Tim 5:19) helps to do that. But we have a duty to protect the flock, as well, and will be held accountable by God (Heb 13:17).
There is also a very strong likelihood that the church and its leaders will be held accountable by the law, as well. By rather vehemently protecting the pastor, every person on the board is putting both the church and themself into a position of legal liability that could come back to haunt them. If the accusations prove true, then the girl involved - now an adult - probably has strong legal grounds for a lawsuit against the church and pastor, and every board member seen as “protecting” the pastor could be named as a co-defendant.
Ryan on Thu, June 19, 2008
Let me add the little bit of insight that I have from the situation.
1) He did get married, though the accusers tried to convince her family that she shouldn’t do it.
2) Good point, Andy, on offering counseling if nothing was wrong.
3) I don’t think that you can hold someone liable when they don’t have evidence to prove otherwise (i.e. the church board). It would be one thing if they were ignoring facts, but from what I’ve heard, they haven’t and truly believe that he is in the right.
4) In my estimation, the question about sex after she turned 17 is the biggest condemning item in the bunch - and, from what I’ve heard, the only source of evidence.
5) Been trying to get more details, but no luck yet.
-ryan
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