Monday Morning Insights

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    “If You Think I’m Going to Hell, You Should Care That I’m Going to Hell”

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    Well, Dan has a great post over at his Vintage Faith blog on hell.  Funny, some people would criticize those aligned with the emergent church movement as not ever mentioning hell, but Dan just did a sermon on it, and gives his perspective here.  Read it and let me know what you think.

    And… how much does your church talk about hell?

    This is a great line from a classic Seinfeld episode. Remember when Elaine is dating Puddy and he becomes a Christian? Dan Kimball remembers it well: "Puddy "listens to Christian music on the radio, but then he emotionlessly makes comments to Elaine how she is going to hell and he isn't. He then asks her to steal his neighbor's newspaper and he says something like 'you're the one going to hell, not me, so you might as well steal it'. And then she sexplodes and starts whacking him with the newspaper and says: 'If I am going to hell, you should care that I'm going to hell."

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    1. bryan on Wed, November 28, 2007

      i haven’t had a chance to read Dan’s piece yet, but i’ve had it bookmarked to do so for a few days now.


      i thought this was interesting timing with Jon Kitna being asked what he was thankful for after his Lions lost on thanksgiving and he said “I’m thankful that I’m not going to hell.”


      http://prayersforblowouts.com/2007/11/27/jon-kitna-thankful-to-avoid-hell/

    2. Nora on Wed, November 28, 2007

      Wow, Todd, what exactly do you mean when you say that Elaine “sexplodes”?  Is that what happens to people who are going to hell?  Or should I ask?! http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif  I’m sorry, Todd, I just couldn’t resist that one!

    3. Derek on Wed, November 28, 2007

      The Elanie/ Puddy discussion is from one of the last Seinfeld episodes called “The Burning.” It is episode 172. There were only 180 episodes total. And it is funny stuff.


      Here are two of the best scenes when they are discussing hell.


      And oh yeah, we don’t talk about hell that much at our church, but we like to use these cheesy puns like: “This message will scare the HELL out of you.” and “You need to say ‘heaven yes’ and ‘HELL no’.” and “We want the truth to kick the HELL out of you.” {insert sarcastic laughter here}


      Ok here are the scenes. 


      Scene One


      ELAINE: So where do you wanna eat?


      PUDDY: Feels like an Arby’s night.


      ELAINE: Arby’s. Beef and cheese and do you believe in god?


      PUDDY: Yes.


      ELAINE: Oh. So, you’re pretty religious?


      PUDDY: That’s right.


      ELAINE: So is it a problem that I’m not really religious?


      PUDDY: Not for me.


      ELAINE: Why not?


      PUDDY: I’m not the one going to hell.


      Scene two


      Elaine: David, I’m going to hell! The worst place in the world! With devils and those caves and the ragged clothing! And the heat! My god, the heat! I mean, what do you think about all that?


      Puddy: Gonna be rough.


      Elaine: Uh, you should be trying to save me!


      Puddy: Don’t boss me! This is why you’re going to hell.


      Elaine: I am not going to hell and if you think I’m going to hell, you should care that I’m going to hell even though I am not.


      Puddy: You stole my Jesus fish, didn’t you?


      Elaine: Yeah, that’s right!


      Elaine places her hands beside her head, index fingers raised as ‘horns’ and she emits a gutteral growling sound.


      LOL


      g&p;,


      Derek

    4. Brian on Wed, November 28, 2007

      I like Dan Kimball more and more all the time.


      In his book, “They Like Jesus but Not the Church,” he discusses his views a bit on preaching about sin and judgment, including hell.  I was pleased to see that his views are very orthodox and evangelical.


      I preach about the judgment of hell when it comes up in the Scriptures or happens to be part of whatever topic I’m addressing at the time.


      I’ve never done an exhaustive study on “hell,” “Hades,” “The Lake of Fire,” or any of that stuff.  I’ve also never done one on heaven.


      Brian L.

    5. Daniel on Wed, November 28, 2007

      Why do we insist on talking about ‘hell’ when it isn’t in Scripture? So-called hell conflates metaphorical imagery pertaining to Sheol/Hades and Gehenna (which are entirely different concepts). Jesus warns of the judgment of Gehenna, but his parable of Lazarus and the rich man (if I’m remembering correctly) is set in Hades (“Abraham’s bosom” is in Hades as well as the place of torment).


      Until we sort out these (very different) concepts, all we’ll be doing is repeating post-biblical mistakes.


      My two cents.


      -Daniel-

    6. Dan on Wed, November 28, 2007

      Hello Daniel - (same name as me -  meaning “God is my judge”),


      I know that the English word “hell” isn’t in the original language of the BIble but a word we chose in our translation. I covered that in the post. Did you read that? I think I answered what you are saying here.

    7. Daniel on Wed, November 28, 2007

      Dan—thanks for the feedback. No, I hadn’t read your post (perhaps to my shame?). I was responding to Todd’s question about whether or not our church talks about ‘hell’. My point was simply that the word has non-Scriptural connotations, and so perhaps churches shouldn’t be talking about ‘hell’.


      But your post is helpful. You are clearly aware of the important background issues, even if I think they justify tossing out the word ‘hell’ entirely.


      The only part I would call into question is when you say: “[what] hell [...] will be like is a mystery, [but] we can know that is eternal, it is a place of regret etc.”


      I disagree. A strong argument can be made that the judgment of Gehenna was not ‘everlasting’. Eternal in consequence yes (Israel is no longer God’s chosen people), but the Pharisees and teachers of the law are not dying every day. I basically follow Andrew Perriman on this point (whose views, I take it, are similar to NT Wright’s). The judgment on Israel Jesus foresees (e.g. in Mark 13) is clearly an historical judgment—and not a post-mortem metaphysical judgment.


      We could perhaps quibble about this, but my point was and is simply that to talk of ‘hell’ is already to presuppose too much. I find it dangerous to wed talk of judgment and justice with metaphysical assumptions about the ‘afterlife’.


      But maybe I’m wrong…


      Peace,


      -Daniel-

    8. deaubry on Wed, November 28, 2007

      read luke 16:22-26 that seems like it answers the question about hell, for me to say that the scripture is wrong is calling god a lier,  that is the way i see it.

    9. Daniel on Thu, November 29, 2007

      Deaubry, the Lazarus passage in Luke 16 takes place in Hades (both the place of torment and “Abraham’s bosom” are in the place of the dead). This is simply not the same as the judgment of Gehenna, which Jesus warns his disciples about.


      Further the fact that this is a parable should make us wonder what the point of the parable is, rather than whether or not it’s an accurate description of the so-called ‘afterlife’.


      As I said earlier, conflating Hades, Sheol, Tartarus and Gehenna is entirely unhelpful, since these are different concepts.


      Peace.

    10. Camey on Sat, December 01, 2007

      This reminds me of some thing that happened this week….


      Austin and I went into the big city to buy him a strap for his guitar. We were so busy talking about him learning to play a song called “Blessed Be Your Name” by Matt Redman that we really weren’t paying attention to the straps themselves. We purchased one that looked really cool with his guitar color wise….


      Later on when he was taking the strap off his guitar, he came in to the room where I was at to show me the strap up close. The strap has skulls on it and the colors really represent flames. It actually says so on the tag that was attached to the strap. We never looked at the tag while in the store.


      So? We’ve been having this discussion on whether or not it is okay for him to use it. Ultimately, it is his decision to make. It definitely has prompted some great discussions in a couple of different places.


      I found Dan’s blog about the subject rather interesting. IMO, it was worth the read.

    11. don on Mon, December 03, 2007

      Lets all sing “People need the Lord” a few more times—that should do the trick.

    12. Camey on Mon, December 03, 2007

      Don,


      Yep. We all do… each and every last one of us..


      Hope this finds you doing well…

    13. Jan on Mon, December 03, 2007

      I heard the movie critic Michael Medved, who is Jewish, discuss this.


      He asked “Why do people get angry at Christians who share their faith and ask if you are saved.? I find it flattering that a Christian friend thinks I’m worth saving and is concerned enough about me to share their what they believe with me.”

    14. deaubry on Wed, December 05, 2007

      jan i believe they get angry because it pricks their conscience,and they kick against the prick, thats the way it did me before i was saved, but i did not dare say anything to or about a christian, no matter how i felt about it , i will tell you why, for the first thing it is wrong but one night in a revival when the preacher got through preaching he gave an alter call, it was a few people going to the alter, and this girl about thirteen maybe fourteen got up to go to the alter, her mother grabed her arm and said, your not going up there, and the mother fell dead right then and there, she was trying to keep her daughter from the lord when he was convicting her . i believe a person can go just so far in gods buisness and he will stop them, if its the wrong buisness. the alter filled up after that, people were crying out for god to save them. i have seen a few times when people would get under such strong conviction, it is awsome

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