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    Interview:  Ted Haggard at Elevation Church

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    In case you haven't seen it, here's a link to the Ted Haggard interview from this past weekend. Steven Furtick did a really good job interviewing Haggard. I watched about the first 20 minutes and it was very interesting. Tell me what you think...

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    1. CS on Wed, April 29, 2009

      I listened to the whole message, and here are some notes I jotted down along the way:


      -I find Furtick’s tone of mannerisms and his dress, unfortunately, to be like he’s more focused on fashion and style than being a man of God.  Which is a horrible shame, because I thought that his lead in to introducing the Haggards was awesome.  I’ll just stick to the audio to see if I can glean things without being distracted.


      -When asked if anything has changed for the Haggards, Ted mentioned that Gayle has taken to cussing much more.  Furtick said that he also says some bad words on stage, and everyone laughed.  Why would a pastor take pride in cussing from the pulpit, or a Christian in their relationship?  That’s wrong.


      -I kept listening to Haggard’s explanation of all of the problems that his sin cause, and how it hurt those he loved.  When he was wrapping up his major statement, he said that he was angry at devil, upset about his loss of leadership for things like when his son got a broken arm, and how he couldn’t even get a menial job in Arizona. He talked about how his grandkids will google his name and find the shameful things he had done.  He concluded with, “I am so sad that I did that to my family and my friends” 


      I may be mistaken here, but I don’t think I heard him say once how he was so upset for hurting his God for what he did.  He was sorry for hurting the body of Christ, but all of those transgressions and sorrowful feelings he listed were horizontal towards others, and not vertical towards God.  I think this is why I have a tough time with hearing him talk about his position with God, because he doesn’t show repentance in that vertical area (at least, not publicly).


      -Gayle said about others in churches who go into sin, “We shouldn’t be shocked when a brother falls.”  No, we should be shocked when someone in the church sins, because that person has been saved by Jesus Christ.  We are supposed to no longer be people who are living lifestyles of sin, but should strive for righteousness.  Yes, we are all human and still bound by flesh, but we have been changed by God in that moment of salvation to where we should not dive headlong into sin anymore.


      -I don’t know why they have boasted twice about being on Larry King, Oprah, and HBO.  Is it really that important to have that worldly recognition for his sins?


      Anyway, just my thoughts along the way.



      CS

    2. jud on Wed, April 29, 2009

      Several things really jump out at me about Haggard.


      #1 One of the qualifications for being an elder in the Church is to be “above reproach”. It’s understood that we are all sinners and will sin.  However one of the primary responsibilities he had was to remain “above reproach” . Unfortunately Mr. Haggard that ship has sailed.


      Translation : Get a job…  and quit scheming as to how you can regain and maintain the comfortable lifestyle you lost. The circuit he’s on with his hand out to everybody might end up being more devestating than the scandel itself.


      #2 He’s directed so much angst towards those he percieves have betrayed him, namely his church family in Colorado Springs. Well, who taught and trained those very people for years and years ?


      #3 People are people, we all fall short. If the Haggards feel that they are victims of backlash let’s remember how this story broke… the evening news, cable news, state newspapers. It’s not like Haggard walked before his people and humbly confessed and asked for forgiveness (of course he did after the fact, in written form if I remember). Betrayal takes time to get over, forgiveness has to be processed and I can’t help but wonder if he expected forgiveness to come, not in simple words but in a six figure job offer, a house in the burbs and a book deal… beacause that seems to be what he’s pursuing now.


      The victims here are Mr. Haggards Wife and Children. I think the family would do a whole lot better if he simply got a job in the real World and quit dragging himself along on this pity party.

    3. jud on Wed, April 29, 2009

      Also,


      Regarding point #2 Does anyone else see the irony in the fact that some of the biggest trends in the Church in the last several decades is to drop regeneration for “life change” and to drop expositing the Bible for felt needs topical “talks”? Then we wonder why Christians act “THAT way” and seem no different than the World.

    4. Eric Joppa on Wed, April 29, 2009

      Guys, I would say that while I understand your thoughts, where is grace in this for you? While Haggard sinned and in a very visible and public way, the Jesus you love and follow, is the same one that loves and forgives you and Ted Haggard.


      I struggle with the way Haggard has dealt with this sin. I don’t feel that he has really owned this entirely. But I cannot know his heart. It may well be that he and God are farther down this road (of forgiveness and healing) than we are with him.


      While it is easy to be upset and angered at Haggard, I can hear the words of Jesus in the back of my mind as I think of your comments and my thoughts about Ted, “how can you see to remove the speck from your brothers eye…”


      You know where I am going. While we may not have sins that are similar to Haggards, but we each have sin and must come to grips with the fact that Jesus really did pay for THIS sin as well as ours..

    5. jud on Wed, April 29, 2009

      Eric,


      Where in either mine or CS’ posts did we say Haggard isn’t forgiven by Christ or that we or any other Christians shouldn’t forgive him?


      I think the issue raise by Haggard’s tour de’ media is one of TRUST not forgiveness.

    6. Peter Hamm on Thu, April 30, 2009

      CS,


      Good thoughts.


      jud,


      (I can’t believe I’m saying this) I totally agree with your first point. No, I don’t agree with the characterization in your follow-up, but in terms of your concerns #1, 2, and 3… I totally agree, I think, with every sentence.


      In the church today, it’s up to us who are leaders to make ourselves accountable. Ted didn’t. Would this have happened if he had had some people in his face with grace? Perhaps, but it might have been more difficult.

    7. Leonard on Thu, April 30, 2009

      CS, Your opening statement IMO is a style issue and he did not come across to me that way at all. 


      I would not want to miss the power of the words of Haggards wife.  Build your life on Jesus and his words and no matter the storm you will stand.  


      Reading these comments here it almost feels like we missed the point of the power of sin, the power of secrets and how much more powerful is the power of forgiveness, the power of the cross, the power of the body because of the power of God.


      In the past people have criticized Furtick for not preaching the gospel and repentance.  I think he answered that too.  I am humbled by this presentation as I know how quickly and easily sin entangles me and rejoice in God’s Grace and Truth.

    8. jud on Fri, May 01, 2009

      CS,


      I understand where you are coming from on your point about Pastor Furtick. What’s amazing is that there was nothing about Jesus’ APPEARANCE that would draw people to him, but when you visit churches and their web-sites and see young pastors who we are esteeming it often seems that appearance is the paramount goal! The April 27 edition of Newsweek has an articlle entitled “Generation Me” (p48 by Raina Kelley) which speaks to the same thing you are getting at I believe.


      It is the epidemic of narcissism.


      It’s a big reason why Ted Haggard simply has to remain in the publics gaze and it’s the reason SO many upstart churches are, it seems, as obssessed with branding their image and marketing that image than fulfilling the Great Commission.


      And it all seems to start with the recognition and personality of the senior pastor.  As I’ve called it before… Cult of Personality. 


      I don’t think this narcissism it’s limited to mine and Furtick’s generation (X) but it is pervasive throughout our culture.  Even churches who elevate “missional” to the top of their platform meticulously document (through video, photos and print) anything they have done… and even Market it.


      CS, it goes BEYOND a hunch on your part when you see that message series at Elevation Church include an extended series on leadership (Purple People Leader). Humans don’t need to be taught how to lead, we need to be taught how to follow!!! Leadership is THE topic of this generation of church planters. The huge problem I have with that is that it puts the focus on people, the self proclaimed leaders. Excuse me but we already have our leader, The Holy Spirit, we need TEACHERS. The problem is… teaching is a role of humility (thats coming from a public school teacher here) Teachers simply point to Truth.


      Leaders require the “gaze of the masses

    9. Peter Hamm on Fri, May 01, 2009

      jud writes [Humans don’t need to be taught how to lead, we need to be taught how to follow!!! ] I respectfully disagree. We desperately need quality leadership training for Christians, especially Christian leaders, to hopefully increase the number of those people who are great followers of Christ (the first part of leading), and that might lead to fewer situations like Haggard’s.


      Romans 12 tells us that leadership is a spiritual gift and needs to be practiced with diligence.


      I think occasionally that you simply paint with too broad strokes.

    10. Kim on Mon, May 04, 2009

      We must keep in mind that love, trust and forgiveness are different issues.  Even Jesus didn’t trust everyone (JOhn 2:24)but He loved and He forgave everyone. We want to make it all the same thing—if we forgive someone or if they ask for forgiveness it means we have to then trust them again.


      I can love and forgive a brother like Ted Haggard who has fallen, but I don’t have to trust him!  Only God knows truly knows the the heart and if he is truly repentant, but we can inspect the fruit of that repentance.


      For example, I have a friend who was molested as a child and involved in ritual sex acts with his Wiccan mother—he grew up and married a woman who had been abused who had a daughter who had been sexually abused.  When she acted out sexually, he molested her. After his arrest, he came to the Lord.  Would he ever have done what he did, if he hadn’t been molested?  Probably not, statistically speaking.  Is he forgiven and redeemed by the blood?  Absolutely!  Do I love him even after he confessed to me his past?  Certainly!  Did I leave my vulnerable little 3 year old alone with him?  Never!


      Sometimes we pick apart the words of people looking for “clues”—i.e. the criticism that music isn’t Christian if it doesn’t specifically say Jesus.  I don’t want to pick apart Ted Haggards words.  Time will tell if there is fruit in keeping with repentence.


      SO…..let’s love and forgive and leave the judgement of the heart to God and if we don’t want to trust him????  Maybe he still isn’t trustworthy.


      Kim

    11. Tim Lett on Mon, May 04, 2009

      CS finds Furtick’s mannerisms, tone, and dress to be “less” than what he would like to see.  I find this purely judgmental and arrogant.  What do you want Furtick to do?  Get up there and beat the crap out of him???  Excuse me, but I think that has already been done…and CS has probably taken his fair share of shots.  You know, I am certainly not condoning the actions of Haggard - they are sinful to the core.  But, I am equally disgusted by the “pile-on” that has taken place, all in the name of Christianity and Church Discipline.  Furthermore, he seems that Haggard didn’t “word” things like you’d have liked to hear.  Brother, build a bridge and get over it.  He’s been having to apologize for months and months just to make people like you happy.  One apology isn’t enough???  What could he say?  What could he do?  How much would it take to satisfy the majority of “Christians”???  What do we want from this man???  Help us, Lord!!!


      And, to the issue of Gayle cussing?  Are we so petty that the “s-word” or the “d-word” can offend us to the core and throw us so off course???  Instead of our eye or hand offending us, I think some of us need to have our “offender” cut out, because most of us are just looking for any reason in the world to get offended.


      Another point:  I am not shocked when anybody - preacher, deacon, singer, whomever - sins…and sins BIG TIME.  None of us are yet in our glorified body.  None of us yet have come to full maturity or have been made perfect.  I believe that those who claim to be “surprised” when someone sins, like this, are merely drawing attention to the sin of others in an attempt to cover their own sin.  Like the old saying, “The smeller’s the feller”.....or….“the bit dog always barks first”.


      I’m with Eric on this thought.  Haggard’s actions were deplorable, and he has admitted such.  But, where is the grace with which we deal with men like Haggard?  We do NOT know Ted’s heart.  We do NOT know what its like between him and The Lord.  We do NOT know what is like when he closes his front door.


      Furtick is right - there are no sins with a capital “s”.  You think you are hiding your lust over images that you see online?  You think that you are hiding your gluttony?  You think that you are hiding those hateful and murderous thoughts?  You think that you are hiding your arrogance?  How would you want to be dealt with if you were exposed as Haggard has been?


      Am I saying that Ted needs to be pastoring today, or in 5 years, or in 20 years?  No.  But, I am strongly submitting that we need to re-evaluate how we deal with those who fall privately and with those who fall publicly and are exposed.

    12. CS on Mon, May 04, 2009

      Tim:


      Let’s take this one piece at a time.


      “CS finds Furtick’s mannerisms, tone, and dress to be “less” than what he would like to see.  I find this purely judgmental and arrogant.  What do you want Furtick to do?  Get up there and beat the crap out of him??? “


      Are you kidding?  You’re mixing fashion and style with the inciting of violence.  I’m amazed you were able to make the leap across the chasm in this logic.


      With regards to my statement of Furtick’s mannerisms and tone, I ask you to watch the following video and tell me whether or not people seem to be giving him attention for his theology, or for his style:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL62Xs4sKlU&feature=channel_page .


      And, no, I wouldn’t want Haggard assaulted.  I would want him to come to repentance to the God against whom he sinned, that’s all.  Which bridges into your next main comment:


      “He’s been having to apologize for months and months just to make people like you happy.  One apology isn’t enough???  What could he say?  What could he do?  How much would it take to satisfy the majority of “Christians”???  What do we want from this man???”


      Okay, but again, to whom is he apologizing, and for what?  We can feel bad about our sins for when we get caught, just like Esau and Judas did in the Bible (metamelomai), or we can feel bad about how our sins were against our God (metanoia).  And the Bible is clear that the latter is what God asks of us when we fall before Him.  So, find for me an instance in this video when he clearly said, “I am sorry because I have sinned against my God,” (kind of like how David did in Psalm 51) and I would be overjoyed with his repentance.  Until then, I can’t help but notice conspicuous absence of this sort of language.


      “And, to the issue of Gayle cussing?  Are we so petty that the “s-word” or the “d-word” can offend us to the core and throw us so off course???”


      I never said I was offended; more that using this language is wrong, especially in the pulpit.  I direct you to Ephesians 5:4 for reference.


      “I believe that those who claim to be “surprised” when someone sins, like this, are merely drawing attention to the sin of others in an attempt to cover their own sin.  Like the old saying, “The smeller’s the feller”.....or….“the bit dog always barks first”.”


      Or could it be a shock that some of us actually expect our pastors to follow the biblical standards for the post that they hold?  I direct you to 1 Timothy 3 for reference.


      “I’m with Eric on this thought.  Haggard’s actions were deplorable, and he has admitted such.  But, where is the grace with which we deal with men like Haggard?  We do NOT know Ted’s heart.  We do NOT know what its like between him and The Lord.  We do NOT know what is like when he closes his front door.”


      You’re right.  We cannot know his heart.  But if we evaluate things solely upon the representation Haggard has been putting forth in being a media icon, having a documentary on HBO about him, asking his former parishioners for money, and the absence of the vertical component of his apologies, any rational man would have to hope that he is truly repentant for what he has done.



      CS

    13. Oliver on Mon, May 04, 2009

      I thought I heard on the video Haggerd turn to Furtick and say, hey big guy…elevate me!

    14. Oliver on Mon, May 04, 2009

      seriously, I know I can be pretty funny.  This just shows what a game the church has really become.  It is a hollow, theologicly inept corporation.  they look for superstars and showy entertainment and the bible pretty much as been thrown out.  Haggard should be disqualifed forever, besides, he is gay, you just don’t turn it on and off.  He is a gay man and he will more than likely fall again.  He shouldn’t be a leader.  He lied for a very long time.  He should be in jail for the drug change alone!  Its sad what our churches have become institutions to feed a media empire!

    15. club penguin on Sat, May 30, 2009

      I would not want to miss the power of the words of Haggards wife.  Build your life on Jesus and his words and no matter the storm you will stand.  Reading these comments here it almost feels like we missed the point of the power of sin, the power of secrets and how much more powerful is the power of forgiveness, the power of the cross, the power of the body because of the power of God.

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