"Need people who aren't Christians to review church service"

“Need people who aren’t Christians to review church service”

Posted on February 11, 2010
Viewed 1401 times
(36) comments

That's the title of an ad on Craig's list. And the pay is $50 bucks. (That's almost enough for most Christians to lie and say they weren't a Christian just to get the money!)

Yes, this is from Jim Henderson from Seattle, who also created ChurchRater.com (which we've had a pretty lively discussion about in the comments section here).

Other qualifications for the job? Who: Age 20-35. Do not currently believe Jesus Christ is God. Not mad at Christians.

What do you think?

Comments

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Christopher Fontenot on Sun, February 14, 2010

According to the ONLY source of truth…The Word of God….the ONLY seeker is God. The error of “seeker-sensitive” churches is to believe that the lost are seeking God instead of the other way around. (Romans 3:11 & Luke 19:10) So to do church in a “seeker-sensitive” way is to do church the way man would do it instead of the way God says to do it.

CS is right. Church is for the elect…not for the lost. Evangelism takes the Gospel to the lost so that they might repent and trust in the Savior. Sure we invite the lost to come to church with us but if the unadulterated Gospel is preached day in and day out, then the lost will get saved or they won’t come back. The true Gospel is so offensive to the world that it put our Savior on a cross. That offense has never changed so when it is preached, it will either break the heart of the sinner or harden it….Scripture gives no other alternative.

If the pastor’s fidelity to Scripture is unquestionable, these critics will write things that reflect their hatred for that message. For weak-minded churches, that would cause them to want to change the message to get a better response. If I were preaching with critics like that in the audience, I would get excited that they hate the message….because unbelievers HATE the true Gospel. I think the pastor here may have had evangelism in mind by doing this but he should use all that money to train his flock to witness biblically and to buy them some tracts.
Peter Hamm on Mon, February 15, 2010

Christopher writes [According to the ONLY source of truth�The Word of God�.the ONLY seeker is God.]

Don’t want to go off on too much of a tangent… but…

Deuteronomy 4:29, 1 Chronicles 16:10-11, a bunch of the psalms and Hebrews 11:6 seem to indicate that men can and do seek God.
Christopher Fontenot on Mon, February 15, 2010

Peter,

Context, context, context…..
Jessica on Mon, February 15, 2010

This is EXACTLY why I love doing church in 2010. And it’s exactly why I dislike it as well. There is room in this world for both “seeker-sensitive” churches and non-seeker churches. Unbelievers are not all made from the same mold, so churches shouldn’t be either. Until our churches learn tolerance and love for those who aren’t like us, our Christians won’t learn it and our world won’t learn it.

I’m disappointed that this post has resulted in yet another example of “my way’s right, because I’ve heard from the Lord and my interpretation is better than yours” religious superiority.

Christopher, your approach to ministry intrigues me. I don’t know you and am fairly new on this blog. Please share some statistics with us on the growth of your church with this worship approach. Are you seeing many unbelievers come to church, come to Christ, and turn their lives around? I believe there is room for both styles and I lean more towards seeker-sensitive, but am open to hearing how this is working for you and your church.
Peter Hamm on Mon, February 15, 2010

Christopher, you declared categorically that the only seeker is God. Clearly, from scripture and plain reason (BOTH in context), people seek God. Now, you might want to argue the finer points of whether they are seeking Him because of His “drawing power”. Okay, I get that, but people do indeed seek.

Also, I dispute that church is for the “elect”. It is actually for God. Don’t you agree? And since God wants us to reach the lost, it is not a big stretch to think that perhaps we should endeavor to make sure our worship services are accessible by them, rather than, as many do, make the services intentionally INaccessible.

I don’t do contemporary music in our worship, for example, just to “reach the lost”. Nope. I do it because it is OUR voice that WE are using to worship the almighty God. And I think He appreciates me using my voice instead of the voice of 200 or 300 or more years ago.

But now we get off track…
Mason Stanley on Mon, February 15, 2010

There are some interesting thoughts through out these comments. As a pastor of a church one question you have to answer: “what will I use my Saturday night and/or my Sunday morning services for?

There is nothing wrong with having a church service that is taylored completely for believers. Strengthening them in the Word and leading them in the worship of our Creator.

There is also nothing wrong with having a church service that is taylored for believers and unbelievers alike. While there is a spiritual difference in the two for sure, there is also a simmular desire to connect with something great than ones self. So if Saturday night and/or Sunday morning is a venue to bring lost people in to hear the Gospel then by all means let us support that and pray for it

Remember, there were times when Jesus read the scripture in the temple to the people. And there were times when He told parables to the masses (which by the way attracted thousands of people because he did some amazing things in their communities as well as spoke to them in a way that was entertainment for them in their day).

For us to sit on the outside and belittle what a pastor is doing based on the notion that God has called him to do it, is a dangerous place to sit. I’m not the church police and neither are you, nor were we ever called to be. Galations 6:1 tells us to call out others who are doing wrong, but that is in the context of our own local assembly. I urge you all to be careful what you judge and comment on.
Mason Stanley on Mon, February 15, 2010

Also, the sooner we stop equating Sunday morning service in a building as “church” the better off our church and community will be. Church is only for believers, agreed. However, Sunday morning is just a venue, there are multiple venues for the church to just be with itself, who says Sunday morning can’t be a place where the church serves the community while connecting it with God? More importantly, who are we to say what a pastor can and can’t do with the Sunday morning venue if he is so lead by God?
CS on Mon, February 15, 2010

Peter:

“Deuteronomy 4:29, 1 Chronicles 16:10-11, a bunch of the psalms and Hebrews 11:6 seem to indicate that men can and do seek God. “

The context of those verses were people who were in the nation of Israel at that time, not for people in general, and especially not today. This was for a group of people who already knew God and needed to go back to Him, and not talking about Joe Average having an innate desire to pursue God. Otherwise, Paul would be a liar with Romans 3:11.

“Also, I dispute that church is for the “elect”. It is actually for God. Don’t you agree?”

God first, elect second. Non-believers are welcome to come, but like Christopher said, should be convicted of sin by the preaching of the Gospel and hopefully come to repentance and faith.

Jessica:

“Please share some statistics with us on the growth of your church with this worship approach. Are you seeing many unbelievers come to church, come to Christ, and turn their lives around?”

You’re measuring things incorrectly. The greatest measure of success in sharing the Gospel is obedience, not numbers. Otherwise, people like Noah and Jeremiah would be complete and utter failures. If someone is preaching the Gospel faithfully, even if it drove people away from the church because they just wanted their ears tickled, that pastor would be a, “success,” because of his obedience to Scripture.

Mason:

“There is also nothing wrong with having a church service that is taylored for believers and unbelievers alike. “

There is something wrong when those church services are done in such a way that the message is compromised to make it focused on the unbelievers, which is what many churches today do.

“For us to sit on the outside and belittle what a pastor is doing based on the notion that God has called him to do it, is a dangerous place to sit.”

How do we know God called him to do that? What is the biblical support for it?

“Galations 6:1 tells us to call out others who are doing wrong, but that is in the context of our own local assembly. I urge you all to be careful what you judge and comment on.”

And Romans 16 says that we should publicly mark those who cause division. And Galatians 2 is an example of public sin being dealt with publicly (not just because of Peter and Paul’s relationship), while Matthew 18 shows private sin being dealt with privately, initially. And there are tons of other warnings about false teachers and how to deal with them, too (2 Timothy 4, 1 John 4, 2 John, etc.).

—
CS
CS on Mon, February 15, 2010

Mason:

“However, Sunday morning is just a venue, there are multiple venues for the church to just be with itself, who says Sunday morning can’t be a place where the church serves the community while connecting it with God?”

Tradition and biblical precedence indicates that Sunday worship is intended for believers (Acts 20:7; Hebrews 10:25, Didichae). And remember that the unsaved cannot please God, so, “connecting them to God,” outside of preaching the Gospel to stir conviction is worthless and leads to false security (Romans 8:8).

“More importantly, who are we to say what a pastor can and can’t do with the Sunday morning venue if he is so lead by God?”

First, the pastor has to follow what the Bible says is prescriptive (1 Timothy, Titus) and his choices have to align with Scripture. Second, how do you know it was in God’s perfect will for him to do something? We can’t play the, “I was led by God,” or, “I was given a vision by God,” card in order to trump any discernment from being exercised.

—
CS
Peter Hamm on Mon, February 15, 2010

Okay, we’re off track. This debate is great for another time and place. We’ve had it all over here on MMI over the years, and we probably aren’t going to make any converts, either side, this time either.
Christopher Fontenot on Mon, February 15, 2010

Peter,

The context of the verses you quoted were from a people whom God had chosen. They were already His. They had strayed as we are all prone but God chose them.

Jesus said that no one could see the kingdom of God unless they were born again. Can man on his own make himself born again? No. Nicodemus, not understanding the spiritual nature of what He speaking, asked a question from a natural standpoint. The same natural state all believers were once in before God made them alive spiritually. Jesus then points out that Nicodemus is a teacher of Israel and wonders why he does not understand what He is telling him. So if Nicodemus is a teacher of Israel, what is his source of truth? Well, it is the Old Testament. Where does the Old Testament teach about spiritual rebirth? Eze 36:25-27

Salvation is an act of God. Jesus said no man can come to Him (seek) unless the Father draws him. (John 6:44, 65) So the first step of any man seeking is God first seeks him and draws him. Until that happens, there is no way a man who is spiritually dead to God can ever, on his own, muster the desire to seek Him.

A man who is spiritually dead often seeks a religious experience but it isn’t the God of the Bible that they seek. They want a god who is happy and perfectly tolerant of their lifestyle or sinful habits. Of course that god does not exist except in the mind of the one who believes in him. That is idolatry. They do not want the true and living God because they know that He will require and account of their lives. That is why Scripture clearly teaches there is none who seeks after God. Jesus said “I came to be found by those who seek after me.” (Luke 19:10)...sorry; but it says “For the Son of man came to came to seek and to save the lost.” Ezekiel 34:11-16…5 verses…and God says “I will” 14 times in an order to make it perfectly clear that salvation is HIS work and not a decision of man.

Jessica,

For the record, I am a Christian and a member of Crosspoint Baptist Church in Baton Rouge LA. I am not a pastor nor an elder or deacon….just a Christian. I take the Great Commission seriously and believe it is the work of the laity to evangelize the world. I thank God that it is not up to me that anyone gets saved because if it were, I would have failed too many times to mention. It pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Cor 1:21) I am living proof of 1 Cor 1:26-31. I have prayed many times that God would not ever let pride creep in to what I do in sharing the Gospel to as many people as I can because I know how easy it would be to boast of what I do and what I have accomplished and who I saved.

My church is about 400 members strong. We, like many true churches in America, are in the midst of churches that believe they can measure the success of what they do by the numbers of those who “made decisions for Christ” on a monthly or annual basis. For the record, we may see about 5 people/month come and surrender to Christ. Personally, though I don’t keep records of how many people with whom I share the Gospel, I probably preach to some 1000-1500 people a year in various public venues and events. I don’t know of one that became a member of our church, nor do I know of any that became part of the bride of Christ. I don’t believe that it is for me to know. God uses what I do to get His message to those He wants to hear that message. He will bring to fruition the seed that is planted or watered by my service to Him. An example of that can be heard on this audio… http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5748086430323595487&ei=MYN5S5yBDJK-qQLb-eTcBw&q=i+got+off+on+george+street#

You asked, ” Are you seeing many unbelievers come to church, come to Christ, and turn their lives around? I believe there is room for both styles and I lean more towards seeker-sensitive, but am open to hearing how this is working for you and your church.”

I don’t know how this is working for my church but I know how it works for The Church. Like I said, I don’t have any numbers and I am glad I don’t. All I want to know is when I stand before Him that He might say, “Well done, My good and faithful servant.” That can only happen if I am faithful to do His will, one of which is the Great Commission.

The “seeker-sensitive” idea of church is man’s attempt to “improve” the way that the Bible teaches us to do church. It is centered on catering to the needs of man instead of fidelity to Scripture. If Christians in America would commit to do church as the Bible says to do it, we wouldn’t need to waste so much of God’s money on new facilities to accomodate all the “seekers” who want a religious experience. Joel Osteen’s church (notice that I did not call it God’s church) in Houston could sell the old Compaq Center if he would stand up and preach the holiness of God, sin, righteousness and judgment to come. More than half of his attendees would leave and never come back. But his church is a PERFECT example of what “seeker-sensitive” gets you. They go to his church because they heap up for themselves preachers who tickle their ears. He doesn’t preach on sin nor does he say the word “sin” until you “...pray that simple prayer and get born again!” We have two churches in Baton Rouge that boast about 20-25000 members, collectively. Baton Rouge proper has a population of roughly 500,000. If just 10% of those “professing Christians” would go out and share the Gospel to JUST ONE PERSON A DAY, (even if it was no more than handing someone a tract) they would reach the entire population of Baton Rouge about one and a half times a year! Can you imagine the impact that would have on a community? That is just two churches!!! It shames me to believe that the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses do it better than those who actually have the truth.
Peter Hamm on Mon, February 15, 2010

Christopher writes (among many other things), [The �seeker-sensitive� idea of church is man�s attempt to �improve� the way that the Bible teaches us to do church.]

With all due respect, no it is not. And this is not the topic of this post anyway. AND it has been beaten to death on this site over the years… Moving on…
Vanessa on Mon, February 15, 2010

Chris,

I think your lack of desire to evaluate the effectiveness of YOUR presentation of the gospel is ignorance .

A healthy tree bears plentiful fruit….and the fruit is VISIBLE. To say that you don’t want to see the fruit or know how much fruit is produced from your life is actually saying that you don’t care if YOUR method of presentation of the gospel is effective or not. A tree is judged by it’s fruit…and you should be evaluated by your fruit. To say that you are better off to not know about the fruit of your life is an easy way to settle on the fact that you may indeed be INEFFECTIVE and to justify that ineffectiveness.

Honestly think about this…if no one comes to Christ after hearing your presentation of the gospel, is that God’s choice, is everyone who hears it an ignorant sinful person with deaf ears, or is it possibly your fault for not speaking in a way they can understand (AKA -seeker sensitive - fight about the word “seeker” all you want, but it simply means that we speak in a language that the person who is not yet a Christian understands in an environment that they are familiar with)?

In 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 Paul talks about being ALL things to ALL people so that by chance SOME may come to know Christ.

I don’t think the way you do evangelism is wrong, but I don’t think other ways are wrong either. Both can be backed up Biblically. Honestly, I find that you are quite possibly judging something that God is blessing and using. It seems very arrogant, as if you understand God more than everyone else. Again, I don’t think you present the gospel wrong, but I think you should desire to know if you are reaching people in the best and most effective way that you can. That is where numbers come in handy. If numbers weren’t important, the early church wouldn’t have kept and shared records about the approximate thousands of people who “believed” when the gospel was preached. If they kept an idea of how many believed, then so should we. It gives a visual of how much fruit your tree (ministry or your presentation of the gospel) is bearing.
CS on Mon, February 15, 2010

Vanessa:

(I’m commenting on your response because a great deal of it ties in with the original post of seeing how effective churches are.)

“I think your lack of desire to evaluate the effectiveness of YOUR presentation of the gospel is ignorance”

Are we biblically called to be effective and maximize our returns, or are we called to be obedient?

“A healthy tree bears plentiful fruit….and the fruit is VISIBLE.”

You’re mixing your parables and using an incorrect hermeneutic. The verses dealing with bearing fruit are proof someone is a Christian, not the quantity of people who come to faith in Christ.

“Honestly think about this…if no one comes to Christ after hearing your presentation of the gospel, is that God’s choice, is everyone who hears it an ignorant sinful person with deaf ears, or is it possibly your fault for not speaking in a way they can understand”

The first two things are, “Yes,” and the third is, “maybe, but doubtful.” It is God’s choice who is saved and who isn’t (John 10:28-29). People are ignorant and sinful until God opens their deaf ears (1 Corinthians 1:18). And while a believer can preach something that is hard to understand or stammer over their words and thoughts, the basics of the Gospel should shine through (1Corinthians 15:1-8).

“In 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 Paul talks about being ALL things to ALL people so that by chance SOME may come to know Christ.”

That’s right. Emphasis on the word, “might,” in those verses.

“Honestly, I find that you are quite possibly judging something that God is blessing and using. It seems very arrogant, as if you understand God more than everyone else.”

Couldn’t the same be said for you judging Chris? What if God is using him?

“If they kept an idea of how many believed, then so should we.”

Some good questions to ask here: How many times were numbers used? What was their purpose in being used? Was that enumeration prescriptive of what we should do? Or, was it used to indicate something out of the ordinary?

—
CS
Peter Hamm on Mon, February 15, 2010

Guys, this is the wrong topic for the “seeker sensitive” debate.

We’ve had it before ad nauseum (before some of you were around), I know for a fact that our host, Todd, is weary of them.

It’s not what the original post is about.

Nobody’s changing anybody’s mind here.

Leave it.