"Need people who aren't Christians to review church service"

“Need people who aren’t Christians to review church service”

Posted on February 11, 2010
Viewed 1402 times
(36) comments

That's the title of an ad on Craig's list. And the pay is $50 bucks. (That's almost enough for most Christians to lie and say they weren't a Christian just to get the money!)

Yes, this is from Jim Henderson from Seattle, who also created ChurchRater.com (which we've had a pretty lively discussion about in the comments section here).

Other qualifications for the job? Who: Age 20-35. Do not currently believe Jesus Christ is God. Not mad at Christians.

What do you think?

Comments

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Vanessa on Mon, February 15, 2010

Peter, I’m not arguing the seeker sensitive debate. I believe that we should be evaluating our effectiveness in our communities - which is what the post was about. I think numbers, as well as evaluations from non-christians are both good things. Chris does not seem to think they are good things to ask for and track. I was attempting to shine another light on the issue at hand.

CS - thanks for responding. We obviously view the words of scripture in different ways. That’s ok because I believe that it takes ALL types to reach the world with the gospel of Jesus Christ. I’m not claiming to be the 100% accurate authority in my interpretation of scripture, but I do share what the Holy Spirit has brought to my understanding. I’m not sure that ANY of us are 100% accurate and I don’t think we will know who is right or wrong until we are standing face to face with God Himself, so I tend to be a bit more open minded on these subjects. I think we are all on the same team and that we should build one another up and challenge each other to sharpen one another rather than oppose one another and tear each other down. I do not, however, deal well with people who think that their way is the ONLY way and that their understanding of scripture is superior to everyone else’s understanding. As for me judging Chris, I clearly stated at least two times that I didn’t think that they way he presents the gospel/evangelizes is wrong. I do, however, think his lack of evaluation of his presentation of the gospel could be faulty. We are to give God our best, and the only way we know if we are giving our best is if we evaluate our effectiveness.
Christopher Fontenot on Tue, February 16, 2010

Vanessa,

I would like to address some of the things you wrote.
“I believe that we should be evaluating our effectiveness in our communities - which is what the post was about. I think numbers, as well as evaluations from non-Christians are both good things. Chris does not seem to think they are good things to ask for and track.”

I also believe we should be constantly evaluating what we are doing as a Church. But Scripture tells us EXACTLY how to do it. (2 Timothy 3:15-17) No where does it tell us to go out and ask the lost what they think of how we worship or what we preach. The “MegaChurch” trend has tempted many good pastors and church leaders to fall into the trap of counting how many “make decisions” for Christ as a measure of their effectiveness. The problem is they refuse to announce the truth of how many of those “deciders” are no longer in fellowship a year later. I mean if you are going to do some evaluation then be totally honest…something you will NEVER get out of most MegaChurches or MegaChurch-wannabe’s.

“We obviously view the words of scripture in different ways. That�s ok because I believe that it takes ALL types to reach the world with the gospel of Jesus Christ.”

ALL types meaning what? Is it all types of Christians?..cuz there is only one true type of Christian but many professing Christians. I have been down on Bourbon St. the last couple days sharing the Gospel. It would blow your mind how many “Christians” are there enjoying and participating in all the activities of Mardi Gras. If I had a dollar for every time I heard someone say “I AM saved” while toting their drinks and stumbling in their stupor, I would be a rich man. Many of these people will head to church this coming Sunday and no one, including the pastor, will ever call them on their sin. Heaven forbid we mess up our numbers or get a reputation of kicking people out of the fellowship for refusing to repent. What would one of the “evaluators” say if they witnessed true church discipline? When the criticism comes, would they be willing to sacrifice Biblical discipline in favor of conforming to the will of the lost critic? It only takes one type to reach the world with the Gospel of Jesus Christ…a Biblical Christian.

” I think we are all on the same team and that we should build one another up and challenge each other to sharpen one another rather than oppose one another and tear each other down. I do not, however, deal well with people who think that their way is the ONLY way and that their understanding of scripture is superior to everyone else�s understanding.”

We should build each other up as well as challenge one another. That is a Biblical characteristic of Christianity. To criticize this method of evaluation is not tearing each other down but a call to discernment. I do not think that my way is the ONLY way but I KNOW that God’s way is the ONLY way…so I will continue to redirect unbiblical thoughts and ideas towards Biblical truth. Yeah, I know the Bible is old-fashioned but His way has been found to flawlessly work for the last 6000 years so I will go with it.

By the way, I make it a point to follow every Biblical pattern for the presentation of the Gospel. I preach the Law to the proud and grace to the humble. We ran into some guys on Bourbon Street that were handing out little “smiley face” stickers to all the drunks that said “Smile. Jesus loves you!” Drunks would slur, “Wow..Jesus loves me!” Funny, because the Bible says that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God. That would be a mixed message…don’t ya think? Paul Washer said this about that kind of message…“Jesus loves me!?....I love me too!!” That is what the proud think so they keep on doing what they are doing. After all, Jesus loves them so why should they change.

Some examples of Law to the proud…
2 Samuel 12:1-12 See the response in vs. 13
Matthew 19:16-21 See the response in vs. 22 (maybe Jesus oughta evaluate how He does evangelism)

I am not above criticism because I have been rightly corrected on some of the Scriptures that I preached out of context and not wanting to misrepresent God’s Word, I repented. But if what I am doing is wrong or if I believe what someone is doing is wrong then I have to be shown by the Scriptures and I will do the same. God is the source of all truth and His Word is the revelation of that truth.
Vanessa on Tue, February 16, 2010

Chris,

We’re obviously on different sides of this whole conversation. We could disagree all week long and address the deficiencies we see in each others method of sharing Christ. The bottom line is this, Paul, in Philippians 1:15-18, states “Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. WHAT THEN? ONLY THAT in EVERY WAY, whether in pretense or in truth, CHRIST IS PREACHED; and IN THIS I REJOICE, yes, and WILL REJOICE.”

I don’t care what your reason, METHOD, intention, ambition, etc… is in preaching Christ. All I care is that Christ, the LOVING Christ who touched the untouchable, healed the unhealable, and forgave the unforgivable, is preached so that people will come to know Him.
Christopher Fontenot on Tue, February 16, 2010

Vanessa,

To get back on subject….do you believe in your heart that Paul, Peter, John, Timothy, Jude, or Phillip or any of the early church fathers were concerned with what non-Christians thought about the church services that they would pay someone to come in and critique them?

Paul said we preach Christ crucified. That means simply that they preached who Christ is, what Christ has done and what our response should be. They preached the love of God and His hatred of sin and wickedness. If you invite an unbeliever to listen to that kind of church service, you will be tempted to soften your message if you are not completely sold out to Christ and His Gospel. This is a bad idea…PERIOD! No Biblical precedent whatsoever. If the pastor and the church leaders are committed to the truth of Scripture, then practiced church discipline will prevent stupidity like this from ever taking place.
Leonard on Wed, February 17, 2010

The debate over who the church is for kind of reminds me of the six blind men describing the elephant.

Each person swearing from their perspective they are right.

Here is a take I have. I do not try to build a service based upon the opinions of un-churched because what we are building I believe requires the insight of the Holy Spirit.

This is not meant to be harsh to those who call themselves an atheist, but the bible says that those who say there is not God are fools. I do not want the insight of someone God calls a fool to build the church. I do not want the insight of someone who Denies the existence of one I love so much to give me tips on how to worship that one.

As for seeker sensitive services, the meaning is really blurred. People today accuse churches of being seeker sensitive because they use a band, or lights, or drums, or preach topically, or use video, or speak in modern language. ... Some accuse churches of this simply because they built a service that can be enjoyed rather than have to be endured.

Some people believe that if the Gospel is not preached each Sunday then is is seeker yet those same people declare that the service is not for unbleievers.

Kind of crazy. I am all in favor or people coming into a service, observing and assessing is we are friendly, understandable and clear in what we are about. This is valuable information and you do not have to believe in God to give it.
Q. on Mon, February 22, 2010

Good thoughts Leonard… It does seem like we have people with different perspectives addressing an idea with different meanings and definitions without fully realizing it…