Strippers Turn Tables on Church

Posted on August 10, 2010
Viewed 4476 times
(100) comments

North of Columbus, OH, there is a battle brewing. It pits a church against a strip club. For the last four years, Pastor Bill Dunfee and several from New Beginnings Ministries have been rallying outside of the local strip club. OK, well... they weren't there to take advantage of the Fox Hole's services, but rather to utilize their bullhorns to talk down the businesses' potential patrons. They've taken pictures of license plates in the parking lot and posted them on their website.

And they've been doing this for the past four years.

After a lawsuit against the church was struck down because of free speech rights, Tom George, the club's owner, had an idea. If the church was going to protest his club, why not have his club protest the church?

And that's what they did.

As people arrived for services at New Beginnings Ministries, they were also greeted with strippers from The Fox Hole.

That's right. The tables were turned.

Score one for the Fox Hole.

Here are my thoughts...

1. Do I think stripping is an admirable profession? No. Owning a strip club? Double no.

2. Do I think the church was right in what they did? No. Not at all. Bullhorns yelling down people? Not cool. Taking pictures of license plates and posting them on your website? Way not cool.

3. Which is more important... that people stop going to strip clubs or that they find Jesus? Which is more important... that these women stop stripping or that they find Jesus? The one thing this church has done with their actions is pretty much guarantee that none of them will have anything to do with any of these people coming to Christ. We can only pray that others will be able to show them the love of Jesus in a more constructive way.

4. I get really upset when people, under the authority of the church, make the death and resurrection of Jesus into a license to be a jerk. Matter of fact, I think it's interesting to compare how Jesus treated 'stripper types' compared to how this pastor and church does. Jesus didn't whip out his bullhorn (hey, it coulda happened) and bully people. He doesn't try to shame them into loving him either. And he doesn't get angry. In fact, he keeps his anger for the Pharisees; the religous people who were always pointing their fingers.

5. We've got to get past the thinking that non-christians are going to act like Christians. They won't. Ever. Truth be told: if we were really all that serious, we'd have plenty of work just making sure that Christians acted like Christians.

6. It's so easy for some people to get so wrapped up in fighting evil that they lose any chance they ever had at stopping the evil they're fighting against. (Read that one twice)

Should Christians stand against evil and sin? Of course. I'm just not sure this is the way to do it.

So... if you're asking me which side I'm taking on this one... I'm more prone to side with the strippers. They simply turned the tables on the church that has been bullying them for the past four years.

What's your take?

I'd love to hear it.

Todd

PS -- I'm resisting all the temptation to say the obvious jokes (that church attendance is up 25% since the strippers showed up, or that the church's offering is now mysteriously missing all the $1 bills). That just wouldn't be cool.

Comments

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Leonard on Tue, August 17, 2010

JohL,
Thanks for pointing out the fact I am arguing with CF. I admit it. The difference in being contrarian and arguing with a person is that I do not boil nearly every post into my one trick pony.

I don’t patrol MMI looking for fault or a way to interject my thoughts on how so many churches, pastors, leaders and Christians have it all wrong. This has been the tenor of CF.

Arguing with CF, yes. Disagreeing with him in this matter, yes. contrarian, no.
Christopher Fontenot on Tue, August 17, 2010

If you go back and re-read my post, the point I obviously failed at conveying is that it is quite possible that the biasness of the reporter MAY have contributed to the exaggeration of the description of the activity of the church members.

Nowhere in what I wrote did I challenge the validity of any other form of evangelism. Evangelism void of the Gospel is not evangelism. Preaching the Word of God is. You can preach it in a conversation with someone on a one-to-one basis, in a church pulpit, or in public in an open-air format. Doing kind things is not evangelism. It is important. It gives God glory if done with the right heart. It backs up what you preach and eliminates charges of hypocricy. But the Gospel HAS to be told. The Great Commission is not go do nice things for all creation. We must tell them.

Leonard chose to begin the argument for friendship evangelism as superior to open-air preaching. That is his belief and I have no problem with it. Again, nothing wrong with befriending people AND sharing the Gospel with them. I can befriend someone in about 20 seconds and I then use that opportunity to tell them about Jesus Christ and eternal life.

I was not advocating one evangelism method over another but do not consider being nice to people and doing good things for them WITHOUT sharing the Gospel to be evangelism. Do good! By all means but do not forsake the opportunity to share the Gospel with those for whom you do good for fear of offending them. That would be a tragedy. Unfortunately, too many Christians believe that their acts of kindness absent of the tellling of the Gospel will lead someone to repentance. I am not ashamed of the Gospel….I trust God and His power to transform people. I will be a herald, by the grace and will of God, until I die. Sorry, Leonard, if I said anything to cause you to believe that I do not like friendship EVANGELISM.
Peter Hamm on Tue, August 17, 2010

Wow, if you can befriend somebody in 20 seconds, you and I might have different definitions of the word “friendship”.
Leonard on Tue, August 17, 2010

CF, I have said it before and I will say it again. I appreciate your passion for the Gospel. I was not offended by you.

I share Christ with people all the time, I simply have seen the most fruit (people coming to faith in Christ and growing in that faith relationship.) by caring and connecting with people.

This is not about God’s sovereignty. I know he is sovereign. This is about what process has born most lasting fruit. I run into people nearly every day who tell me that a co worker shared Christ with them, a neighbor shared Christ with them, the guy behind the counter shared Christ with them.

Every Gospel presentation I make with someone includes the following

Permission - I ask permission to share with them about Christ. In doing this over 30 years, I have NEVER once had someone say no and nearly every person I have spoken to has thanked me, whether they entered a relationship with Christ or not.

Problem - I make sure people understand the problem that exists between us and God… Sin. The bible tell us we have all sinned and that our sin has created a separation between us and God.

Solution - Jesus Christ is God’s solution. His death, burial and resurrection is how God responded to my sin problem. This is the biggest demonstration of love ever.

Offer - I ask them, would they like to turn form sin to Christ.
Welcome…When If someone says yes, I welcome them into the family of God and begin to connect them to a church or group of people who can help them continue. I believe it is ideal for them to get a handle on some basics so we will try to do a study I wrote called “Welcome to the Family”

If they say no I ask them if in a few weeks I could revisit this conversation. Again I have never been told no.

I do not build relationships without this in mind. Every person I meet, this is my agenda. And guess what, it works. I see people come to Christ all the time, have for years.

Here is why I am not a fan of street preaching, all having to do with my experience.

In my experience, I have met by far more people who are turned off by it that convicted.

In my experience the preachers themselves see peoples irritation as conviction of fighting with God, but when I have spoken to those who are irritated, it is with the people who are preaching.

in my experience there is very little effort to make disciples with this method. The goal seems to be to convert people. My goal is to make disciples, students of our master Jesus. Simply pointing to a church with no follow-up is not disciple making.

These are some of the issues I have with street preaching.
JonL on Tue, August 17, 2010

Peter - I would not disagree with you that some people would complain about open air preaching be offensive. As we have agreed upon, the gospel is offensive. However, people can be offended by “friendship” evangelism as well. Done poorly, it becomes a bait and switch - you are only my friend to convert me - and that is equally offensive.

While comparing the two arguers probably won’t yield much, I think CF’s comment about ‘shouting AT anyone’ is meant to address the difference between shouting TO someone versus shouting AT someone, rather than being implicitly nonsensical by continuing to advocate for street preaching and against speaking at a loud volume.

Leonard - My point isn’t that you are arguing with CF…I don’t have a problem with that necessarily. While we should seek to understand one another, I think its important to discuss the merits and drawbacks of the different ways to evangelize.

From reading your comments, I’m glad to see that both you and CF are passionate about sharing the gospel with others, even if your methods differ.
Christopher Fontenot on Tue, August 17, 2010

I have no problem whatsoever with different methods of evangelizing as long as the message is told. The friendship method of establishing a relationship and some time in the future if and when the situation calls for it, you begin a conversation about salvation. The time span between the meet and greet and the day of the conversation is assumed to be guaranteed and it’s not.

Leonard, I don’t believe you’d have a single problem with the way I open-air preach at the DMV or at any public event in Baton Rouge. I have some videos on my FaceBook page if you’d like to watch them and let me know what you think.
Carole Turner on Tue, August 17, 2010

I have been going into 3-4 local strip clubs at least once a month for over three years. I have been in every strip club on Burboun Street in New Orleans twice in that time. I go into the clubs WITH ladies from my church. Yes, we go into the clubs, hand the dancers and all female patrons Roses, smile at them, tell them to have a good night, then we turn around and leave.

Below are a few post from my blog with more detail about this ministry. There are a few similar outreaches around the country. I personally feel and actually know that the love of Jesus, His kindness, is what leads us to repentance, not being yelled at my a bull horn.

http://www.carolesmithturner.com/2008/11/first-time-i-walked-into-strip-club-i.html

http://www.carolesmithturner.com/2009/10/dont-stop-believing-strip-club-story.html

http://www.carolesmithturner.com/2008/12/christmas-for-strippers-and-children.html
Christopher Fontenot on Tue, August 17, 2010

Carole,

The shocking part about the links you posted, is that these strippers attend your church. In other words, they are comfortable being a member of a church and still practicing abject sin. Has anyone explained to these girls, “We are really glad you attend here but you cannot be a Christian and a practicing sinner.” They must abandon their sinful life and surrender to the Savior or they have to leave. This is what church discipline is supposed to do. Prevent reproach from being brought on the congregation and The Church body. The most loving thing you can do is to now show them how holy God is as well as how merciful He is.
Peter Hamm on Wed, August 18, 2010

Christopher, please don’t critique somebody else’s ministry so quickly with such inadequate information. What if they are not believers yet, should we ask them to stop coming to church? What if they just don’t “get it” yet? Should we ask them to leave? Exactly how long should somebody attend our church before we kick them out because they are not living the way we think they should? Who decides? How do we assess the greed or avarice of the people who we let stay on an ongoing basis? Do you see the can of worms this opens?

JonL writes [However, people can be offended by �friendship� evangelism as well.] Agreed, but come on. Statistically, do you have any idea which is more offensive (not by its content, but by its delivery)? Open-air preaching in public or friendship evangelism? I do.
Leonard on Wed, August 18, 2010

The Gospel is offensive… This is kind of a sticky point for me. Not because the offense of the Gospel isn’t real but because so many people are offensive and blame the Gospel. It is kind of like saying, “

“I’ve got the gospel, I do not need to pay attention to human relationship dynamics, where people might be, how people even learn and understand… and if you are offended by that, it must be the gospel.”

I know people can be offended by the message, but far too often they are offended by the messenger. I have had so many people come to Christ who say, If I had know this was the message I would have come earlier… but did not come earlier because they were “preached” to in an offensive manner.

It is almost as if the Gospel doesn’t offend, these people do not believe it is the Gospel.
Christopher Fontenot on Wed, August 18, 2010

Peter,

I can say this, though I’ve never met Carole in person, I have read her blog and I believe that what she is doing is terrific. I cheer her on and hope her ministry grows. I hope that it didn’t sound like I was criticizing what she does but I am concerned about the idea that a church would allow someone who not only refuses to repent but continues to practice sin to continue to congregate with believers. If the whole counsel of God is faithfully preached in the pulpit day in and day out then sinners will either be broken over their sin or they will be too uncomfortable to stay. Unfortunately, HPC is not one of the churches who exalt God’s holiness or preach about His wrath and judgment. This is obvious because people who go there are comfortable enough to continue attending as well as not being convicted about their sinfulness.

You asked: ” Exactly how long should somebody attend our church before we kick them out because they are not living the way we think they should?” It’s not whether they are living the way WE think they should, it’s living the way God SAYS they should. Sanctification is moving towards Christ-likeness not worldliness. Someone from HPC should meet with them one-to-one and tell them that they are glad they attended and then explain to her the seriousness of sin, the holiness of God, what He has done, and what her response should be. If she doesn’t “get it”, as you put it, then she is not regenerate. You don’t give up on her and you don’t lead her to believe that God’s love for her will allow her to continue in her lifestyle AND still attend church. This is what we would do at my church. Is she welcome there? ABSOLUTELY! But we love her enough to want her to leave her sin and repent…not just fill a church seat and continue in her sin.
Church discipline is rarely practiced so the “can of worms” are a result of not practicing what Scripture commands us to do. Thus there are many hypocrites sitting in your churches and even serving in leadership. It wouldn’t be that way if we just believed God and not just believe in God.
Christopher Fontenot on Wed, August 18, 2010

Leonard,

There is a group from a church in Woodville MS that come to LSU once a month and stand in Free Speech Alley and call everyone there fornicators, whoremongerers, liars, thieves, homosexuals, sodomites, etc. The truth is….they’re absolutely right when they say these things. What they do is offensive. I agree with you completely that some street preachers are intentionally offensive.

On the other side of the coin are those who, for fear of offending anyone (Joel Osteen is a great example), never speak of ALL that Scripture says about God including sin, His wrath against it and His righteous judgment in hell. They emasculate God and make Him to be a kind of great grandfather who will one day put you on His knee and say “Hey, you did the best you could and that’s good enough for Me.”

When I speak to anyone, whether they think this message foolishness or not, I want them to hear my tears for them in what I say. Christians should be so overwhelmed with compassion for the lost that they not only endeavor to preach His Gospel to all the world but to plead with them to turn from the wrath that is to come. It should be a heartfelt cry. It is for me. In that effort, even though my heart breaks for them, some will still be offended by the Gospel. That offense is what Jesus spoke of; not the kind where someone is in their face calling them names. This is how I approach evangelism one-to one or open-air on the streets.

You also wrote: ” I have had so many people come to Christ who say, If I had know this was the message I would have come earlier� but did not come earlier because they were �preached� to in an offensive manner.” The way this is written, it seems like this person believes their salvation was a result of their decision. If they came to Christ, it was because God drew them to Him. They were not in control of that. God was. Jesus spoke of this in Luke 7:31-35. It is not the method of the delivery of the message that changes men’s hearts. John the Baptist called men to repentance and told it like it is when it came to sin. What was his reward? Jesus came healing and working wonders and today is called the most peaceful man ever to walk the earth. What was His reward? They both preached the same message but in different styles and there end was violent.

I don’t advocate or participate in shock and awe preaching to draw up the ire of the crowd but I will not compromise on ALL the truths of Scripture.
CS on Wed, August 18, 2010

Catching up and going back…

Reggie:

“im not going to get in the middle of lenard and chris, but for a while i have been contemplating starting a multisite at a local strip club. wondering what that would look like, who to ask,what kind of flack i would recieve .... anybody have any thoughts? “

Bad idea. While there is nothing intrinsically evil about a specific building or area, the problem with using a strip club (or bar, casino, or any other place with questionable activities going on inside) is twofold. First, it may cause brothers and sisters to stumble as they come close to the areas where they once resided in sin. Second, it can paint a bad picture to the world of what is condoned by churches who do not understand the full picture of what is going on.

Carole:

“I go into the clubs WITH ladies from my church. Yes, we go into the clubs, hand the dancers and all female patrons Roses, smile at them, tell them to have a good night, then we turn around and leave. “

Just curious, does anyone with your church/ministry ever confront them about their sins (and I’m not talking specifically about stripping, but all of the other things they do, too)?

—
CS
JonL on Wed, August 18, 2010

Peter, you said “Statistically, do you have any idea which is more offensive (not by its content, but by its delivery)? Open-air preaching in public or friendship evangelism? I do. “

I did not realize that anyone was keeping statistics on evangelism delivery methods. I would appreciate it if you could point me to the data. Additionally, as has been previously noted in this discussion, all open-air preaching is not performed the same, just as all friendship evangelism is not performed in the same manner.

I think God can use open-air public preaching as well as friendship evangelism.

Leonard, you wrote, “It is almost as if the Gospel doesn�t offend, these people do not believe it is the Gospel.” Unfortunately, the converse is also true….if the Gospel does offend, than other Christians say it isn’t the Gospel.

Each of us has to be accountable to God as we minister to other people.
Q. on Wed, August 18, 2010

@ Peter, I thought the same thing about the ‘befriending someone in 20 seconds” deal… I thought either we are HIGHLY disagreeing on the definition of friendship or CF has stumbled across the quickest way to make friends EVER!!! That sounds sarcastic but I guess it is possible that someone can give (and someone can recieve) true friendship in 20 seconds… I’ve never seen it and that has never been my personal experience but CF-I would sincerely be interested in hearing more about how you have done that if we aren’t just disagreeing on terminology. In my personal experience I have only started to begin to make someone’s acquaintance in 20 seconds but I don’t think anyone that I have spoken with would (after 20 seconds) introduce me to someone as their ‘friend’. Again, I could be misunderstanding terminology and I probably am…but just in case I’m not-please feel free to share how you have done this in your experience… Thank you so much for your time…