The Church “Must Change”
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Tue, September 13, 2005
- Viewed 61
- (11) comments so far
Can you tell which one is 'conservative' and which one is 'liberal'? Also... name that theologian.
- "When a thing grows weak and out of date, it is obviously soon going to disappear. That's also true of churches. If a church cannot change, it will eventually die."
- "Clearly change in both liturgy and structure is inevitable, and this change will probably be radical, if not total....the forms the Church assumed in the past inevitably must die."
Bruce continues... "Though conservatives and liberals do not often agree, I think it is revealing that leaders from both ends of the spectrum see an urgent need for change in our churches. They might not agree about the nature of the change, but they are both clear that the church as it exists today will not survive into the future.
FOR DISCUSSION: Which comment is from the 'conservative' and which one is from the 'liberal' theologian? (Can you name them?) And... do you agree with their statements? --NO FAIR peeking at Bruce's blog for the answer!! Don't ruin the fun! 
Todd
Bruce Alderman had a great post on his blog with a little quiz attached. Here is what two Christian Leaders had to say about how today’s church needs to change. One is ‘conservative’ and the other is ‘liberal’ in their theology…
Comments
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Chris on Tue, September 13, 2005
My guess is that #2 is the liberal and #1 is the conservative.
Although the wording is awfully similar, the perspectives they bring are actually very different. Quote number one speaks of adaptation, while quote number two speaks of replacement.
The first quote states that change must happen or the church will die. A change in form is different from a change _of_ form, which is what the second quote seems to call for.
Am I right?
Linda on Tue, September 13, 2005
1. “When a thing grows weak and out of date, it is obviously soon going to disappear. That’s also true of churches. If a church cannot change, it will eventually die.”
My guess is that #1 is a conservative statement. I am fully in agreement that if a church cannot change it will die. But we must also remember that a church is not a building but people. Nobody has said this yet but my feeling is that if a person calls himself or herself a Christian and doesn’t act like one it promotes hopelessness to those who look for something that’s working in people’s lives.
2. “Clearly change in both liturgy and structure is inevitable, and this change will probably be radical, if not total…. the forms the Church assumed in the past inevitably must die.”
I think the future church will stand out more for what it does than what it looks like structurally. Substance over form is my guess.
Tom on Wed, September 14, 2005
I have to guess that the second comment is by John Shelby Spong. He has been espousing that the church needs to under-go a complete transformation for awhile. I think though if you will check out the link I list, if indeed this is a quote from Spong, you will find he really is MORE than a “liberal” that his theology is heretical in its teachings. I know those are strong words but when you make statements like “the Christology of the ages is bankrupt” and “The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed” than there really is not any other words to describe him than heretic. This is just the tip of the iceberg in his “call for a new reformation” - check out the link and I’m going to find out if I was right and the 2nd quote is Spong.
http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/jsspong/reform.html
Rosanne on Thu, September 15, 2005
The greatest problem with most 21st century churches is that they still see women in a second-class role, incapable of leadership roles (and I do mean as Pastor/Reverend….. not Childcare Director)....and they erroneously use the Bible to back up this sexism, just as they did to justify slavery. This has been the greatest travesty of Jesus teachings and I do believe it is time we recognized that God gifts both men and women to leadership roles equally.
Todd Rhoades on Thu, September 15, 2005
Well… here are the answers:
1. Conservative pastor Rick Warren.
2. Liberal theologian John Shelby Spong.
Good job!
Todd
eight on Thu, September 15, 2005
Something that cannot change is already dead. A living organisim is in constant change. A growing and alive church will be constantly flowing like a beehive. One that is stiff and unforgiving, unserving, and incapable of adapting is already dead…it just hasn’t been buried. I believe God is doing something big in HIS church across the world and those who surrender to His will will be part of a great revival and those who refuse to give up all to follow Him will miss a great blessing. It’s all about Jesus…not organizations. They are there to point people to Him…not build monuments…after all healthy people don’t live in the cemetary.
Peter Hamm on Fri, September 16, 2005
These two quotes are excessively burdened, and therefore this debate is, by the convictions of those who stated them. In the first instance, positively, and in the second, negatively.
Warren has proven by his life and actions, especially over the past half decade or so, that his idea of a new reformation is possible, and not only compatible with the Gospel of Christ, but indeed, it may eventually be the proof of that Gospel.
It would be generous to call Spong a heretic. I think it’s impossible to even call him a Christian. His ideas are Deism at best. In the document mentioned above, he shows that his view of Scripture is very low, much lower than even the deeply flawed philosophies of Darwin and Freud. But if Christ is not raised, we are very wretched indeed.
I continue to hope that few if any serious Christian leaders even bother to debate him on his points. Let’s preach and do the Gospel in our neighborhoods, towns, cities, and countries and leave this “debate” in the increasingly irrelevant University where it belongs.
Marcia Cuzzo on Mon, September 19, 2005
The “old” church is dying, but won’t admit it.
The people on the iside try to fix it, and they don’t have a clue how to get new and young families in. Want to draw new ones in? Go to the people on the outside and ask.
People on the outside pick up quickly that it is an organization that is controlled by people, not a spiritual body that even wants new people in.
I don’t care whether the comments are liberal or conservative. I DO care that churches are not reaching out to the lost and loving them enough to be willing to make some changes.
JoAnne McNamara on Tue, September 20, 2005
I am a classically trained church musician and have been in many, many churches of all denominations. Some have been spirit filled and some are indeed little social clubs that are already basically dead. I am working for a church now that is struggling.
I can tell you from experience that all the modern, contemporary, creative, new worship services in the world will not help. If the peoples’ hearts are sincere, the traditional worship service (with the Lord’s meal included!)is a beautiful thing and the Holy Spirit will be there. Also, the problems facing many churches today are not always internal but external. That is, the whole of our American materialistic society is a tough nut to crack no matter what format a church decides to take. Do not though out the baby with the bath water!
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