Monday Morning Insights

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    Today’s Buzz: Could Jesus Be a Southern Baptist Pastor?; Church Beerfest; Giant Hymn Sing &amp

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    Would Jesus be allowed to be a Southern Baptist pastor?
    Dan Kimball asks this question after hearing this quote from Al Mohler:  “I can assure you of this: if you are associated with the use of beverage alcohol, I think I dare exaggerate not to say that 99% of all doors of ministry in the Southern Baptist Convention will be closed to you.” You can read Dan’s post here.

    Is alcohol still a big issue in your church?  What is your stance?  Why?

    Speaking of Alcohol… I guess it’s not a big issue here!
    From the UK:  St Clement’s is building on last year’s phenominal success of hosting a Beer Festival in Chorlton. Last year proved to be a fantastic community event, which everyone enjoyed: the beer, the cider, the food, the weather, the bouncy castle, and the community spirit! On Saturday morning and afternoon (until 7.00pm), please feel free to come as a family. Children receive free entry (and, of course, are not able to imbibe!). While you sample some of the country’s best ales, the children can bounce on the bouncy castle, enjoy football and sponge games for children, enjoy some crafts, and you all can enjoy the community spirit!  Here’s the link if you wanna go.

    From what I’ve heard, beer was a big part of some American churches in the early years as well; that is, until the temperance movement.  Am I wrong?

    And what do the people in the UK do after having a beer?  Sing hymns, of course!
    This is also from the UK… “There’s nothing like a really good hymn-sing – hundreds, even thousands, of people, singing classic, traditional, hymns. That is why Surefish is organising the Great Big Hymn Sing at this year’s Greenbelt festival, to give those who like singing the chance to vote for, and then sing, their favourite hymns.” Here’s the link if you’d like to vote on your favs.

    OK… I’ll ask… what’s your favorite hymn of all time?

    Just what Nazareth needs...
    Some very affluent Christian businessmen want to help the economically depressed city of Nazareth, Israel.  I can’t help thinking that there must be better ways to help than by building a 60-metre cross adorned with millions of “personally engraved” mosaic tiles and a church built at the centre.  The project will also include a visitor centre, archaeological theme park, and monorail system connecting the cross to local historic sites.  Here’s the link. HT:  Magic Statistics.

    Leaving the Church
    Craig Groeschel continues his series:  “The church I came from years ago was sort of like the movie The Firm. Once you were in, you could never leave–at least not without controversy.  If you left the church, many people thought you were:  1) Betraying the pastor 2) Abandoning your friends 3) Disobeying God.  After someone left, they were treated like they were leaving Christianity. That’s a tragedy… Read more here at Swerve.

    That’s it for today… make it a good one!

    Todd

    Al Mohler says that "99% of all doors of ministry in the Southern Baptist Convention will be closed" to anyone who drinks alcohol. Hmm... where would that leave Jesus? Meanwhile, in the UK, you can attend a beer festival sponsored by a church. (Wonder which event Jesus would probably attend: a potluck at the local SBC church or a beerfest in the UK? Just wondering... I'm kinda funny that way.) Plus, a giant cross in Nazareth; a huge hymn sing; leaving the church; and more!

    Comments

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    1. Peter Hamm on Tue, July 17, 2007

      My favorite hymn… “One Bourbon, One Scotch, and one Beer” by George Thoro—oops… oh HYMN, I’m sorry.


      Tied for my fave are two “Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing” and “Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee” (possibly the most amazing melody of all time…)


      Alcohol is not a big deal in our church, we’re not very legalistic, and yet it is important to note that like many other things, without moderation… bad, very bad… I have, like Dan says in his post, seen a lot of destruction result from Alcohol abuse in people’s lives. But I’ve seen people ruin their finances with an ebay habit, or gambling addiction (I’m a little legalistic on the gambling thiing, I admit…), or food…

    2. JHPW on Tue, July 17, 2007

      Regarding Alcohol—


      This is a non-issue in our current church.  Some drink, some don’t.  Since scripture does not command against drinking (only drunkeness), we take the same approach.  In the Presbyterian church I was raised in, alcohol was not prohibited.  In the churches I was involved with in my early adulthood (Assembly of God, Foursquare) drinking was not acceptable.  Interestingly, here in my little corner of Texas, where it seems like there are only about 9 of us who are not Baptist, many of the Baptists I know drink socially.  So I guess Jesus could pastor here in North Texas!

    3. Dan on Tue, July 17, 2007

      Todd, have you seen [url=http://www.riverbrew.com]http://www.riverbrew.com[/url]?

    4. JHPW on Tue, July 17, 2007

      Forgot to mention my favorite hymns.  My top 3 are:  Amazing Grace,  Holy, Holy, Holy   and Christ the Lord is Risen Today

    5. Ken on Tue, July 17, 2007

      The real problem regarding rules against alcohol is those rules add to scripture, something Jesus criticized the pharisees for, because it created a stumbling block for people to find God.  That hasn’t changed.  Many people still view the church as a place with a bunch of pious rules.


      Having been a S. Bapt most of my life I would say that most people in the pew do not agree with Dr. Mohler. 


      I also think that the IMB has a perception problem in many places around the world on this issue.  I have seen it first hand in Europe.  It puts their missionaries in a tough position.

    6. reGeN on Tue, July 17, 2007

      i wholeheartedly agree with ken…what i find interesting is that mohler did not include another “sin”: gluttony…i grew up baptist and i cannot tell you how ridiculous i always thought it was for a 500 lb. pastor to deride anyone who drank as being alcoholics and addicts when his own “addiction” was quite obvious…the Word is clear that drunkenness is sin…but telling folks that having a drink is the same is somewhere i’m not willing to go—-and i speak as a person who struggled with bing drinking for a few years before finally being delivered 13 years ago…

    7. Sam C on Tue, July 17, 2007

      Hymn: Be Thou My Vision


      On the alcohol issue I personally refrain.  I have known quite a few people who have gone through Teen Challenge for alcohol among other addictions.  I would not want to hinder my testimony or cause someone to stumble by being forceful in saying there is no problem with having a drink.  Would it hinder my testimony to be opposed to alcohol (ie people thinking christianity is lame because of it)?  I don’t think so…in fact I think people are more likely to admire someone who stands by their values (not rules) than someone who has no bounderies.  that’s just me though http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif

    8. JMc on Tue, July 17, 2007

      Problem is the Bible is not opposed to alcohol, it is opposed to drunkeness.  In order to be consistent you would have to be opposed to sex, prescription drugs, making money, and eating.  All of those things are potential pitfalls if used inappropriately.  Why are you choosing to single out alcohol?  I have never drank for the same reason I’ve never sewn, no real need to do so.  Casual drinking is not taboo in many cultrues around the world, i’m not sure it is taboo in ours anymore.  If Mohler would have just said “anyone associated with drunkeness”, I would be on board.  I have been SBC all my life but they have once again thrown the proverbial baby out with the bath water.  At the very least this did not need to be a public statement.  The message sent is that people who associate with alcohol have no hope or place in the “kingdom of god” (read SBC).  From my reading of the story, Zaccheus was not told to quit being a tax collector, he was convinced to quit being a crooked tax collector.


      Hymn: Be Thou My Vision & Because He Lives

    9. Rob Grayson on Tue, July 17, 2007

      As a Brit who loves classic hymns as well as contemporary worship music, I couldn’t resist answering the question about favourite hymns. Choosing one is tough, though. I think my top five would be And can it be, O for a thousand tongues, Crown Him with many crowns, Great is Thy faithfulness, and When I survey the wondrous cross.


      Compare some modern worship songs with hymns like these and you will find that they are lightweight to say the least. I am thankful for a recent trend in pentecostal/charismatic churches in the UK whereby old hymns hauseve been resurrected and reset to contemporary accompaniment - either a modern arrangement of the original tune, or occasionally a new tune altogether. This has helped make the heritage of hymns accessible to countless younger people.


      Final comment - I’m also a big fan of the likes of Stuart Townend and Keith Getty, many of songs may be described as modern-day hymns (e.g. How deep the Father’s love for us, Oh to see the dawn, In Christ alone).


      Rob

    10. brett maxwell on Tue, July 17, 2007

      “From what I’ve heard, beer was a big part of some American churches in the early years as well; that is, until the temperance movement.  Am I wrong?”

      You are very much correct.  Check out the Church & Beer article we have at RiverBrew.com

       

    11. Derek on Tue, July 17, 2007

      I think Al would be a bit more relaxed if he would pop the cork on a nice Merlot or Cabernet a couple of nights a week. I find it funny that churches still have discussions about alcohol. Isn’t the Scripture clear (as JMc noted) that drunkeness is a problem not alcohol itself?


      I am not much of a beer drinker, but red wine is a must. I only drink in my home or when I go out to eat in a resturant in a different city. I don’t drink in public in my town in order to apply the “don’t make your brother stumble” principle. Red Wine is what Jesus drank. Paul told Timothy to save a little wine for your stomache’s sake. Medically, red wine is good for your heart.


      Derek

    12. reGeN on Tue, July 17, 2007

      indeed red wine is great for the heart—-except when the heart is hardened with legalism and religion…

    13. Brandon on Wed, July 18, 2007

      In the Bible, there is a wine that is intoxicating and a wine that is not intoxicating.  Proverbs 23:31 says, “Do not look on the wine WHEN it is red, WHEN it sparkles in the cup, WHEN it goes down smoothly.”  The Hebrew word “when” indicates that there was a time when it was fermented and there was a time when it was not fermented.


      There are four words in the Bible that are used for “wine”:


      SHEKAR – always referred to as strong drink.  It referred to any kind of drink that could intoxicate and it is always condemned in the Bible (except when used as a narcotic to ease pain).


      TIROSH – translated in the Bible as either “wine” or “new wine” (i.e. “thy presses shall burst forth with new wine.”  Isaiah 65:8 called that which was in the cluster of grapes new wine.  You will not get drunk on that!  This was a type of beverage the ancients could make so that it didn’t ferment.  There has to be a mechanical process in order to get grape juice to become intoxicating.  Historical evidence shows that the ancients drank TIROSH just as much as we drink water.


      YAYIN – may mean intoxicating or not intoxicating depending on the context.  It’s just like the word “drink” we use today.  If a person were in a bar and he were offered a “drink” it would be assumed that the drink he is being offered is alcoholic.  If he were at a Baptist potluck and someone offered him a “drink” it would certainly take on a different context.


      The Greek language only uses one word for wine which could mean either YAYIN or TIROSH.  So did Jesus serve “strong drink” (alcoholic) at the wedding of Cana?  No.  Don’t you think Jesus knew the verse that said, “Woe unto him that giveth his neighbor a strong drink”? 


      What about when Jesus served wine at the last supper.  Was that alcoholic?  It couldn’t be.  He served the fruit of the vine (the cup) and he used unleaven bread because leaven had yeast in it which was symbolic of sin.  Alcohol has yeast in it.  When Jesus took that cup at the last supper, Jesus said that these things represent his body and his blood.  If we assume that the wine Jesus served was alcoholic wine, we are saying that Jesus’ blood was tainted with sin. 


      MY POINT: When we mention the word wine which was used in the Bible we are not necessarily talking about that which was intoxicating.


      A report from the American Medical Association says that there are 17 million alcoholics in our country.  Their study showed that 2 out of every 5 people who pick up a drink for the first time will end up with a serious alcohol problem.  When you pick up that first drink, it’s like playing Russian Roulette—you’ve picked up a gun with 5 chambers and there’s a bullet in two and you’re pulling the trigger—gambling that you won’t develop a serious problem.  The Japanese have a proverb that says, “First the man takes a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes the man.”


      Yet you might say, “Well, I can drink and not be affected by it—I drink but don’t get drunk.”  It is the person who can socially drink and not get drunk that encourages the other person to drink.  If a frat boy in college sees his mother and father drink, he will think it’s all right and he may even become an alcoholic. Moderation is not the answer to the alcohol problem—in most instances it is the cause of it.  It is the moderate drinker that encourages other people to drink. 


      Going back to Proverbs 23:31—when the Bible says, “Do not look on the wine…” that phrase “do not look” means don’t lust after it, don’t desire it, simply leave it alone!


      To wrap it all up—I think Abraham Lincoln had a great point: “Alcohol has many defenders [including those within the Christian faith] but alcohol has no defense.”

    14. Peter Hamm on Thu, July 19, 2007

      Brandon, I’m following much of your argument. Did Jesus serve non-alcoholic wine at the last supper? Very likely, if not definitely.


      Did he change water into non-alcoholic wine for Cana? I’ve heard that, and I’m sorry, based on what we know of the culture of the time and what the Bible record itself says, the only way you can believe that is if you go into the text wanting it to say that. The argument just doesn’t hold water, pun intended.


      And I’ve known plenty of top cardiologists (in a former work life) who would argue that the health benefits of having a glass or two of red wine every day are significant.

    15. Daniel on Thu, July 19, 2007

      Brandon—perhaps you could explain this passage then:


      “When the head steward tasted the water that had been turned to wine, not knowing where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), he called the bridegroom and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and then the cheaper wine when the guests are drunk. You have kept the good wine until now!” Jesus did this as the first of his miraculous signs, in Cana of Galilee. In this way he revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him.” (John 2:9-11, NET)


      If the guests are getting drunk on the wine… wouldn’t that usually imply it’s a little more potent than grape juice??


      My two cents.


      -Daniel-

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