Monday Morning Insights

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    Today’s Buzz:  Repent, Pastor Frank!; Kiwi on Vulgarity; Small, Rural Churches and More!

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    Repent, Pastor Frank!
    I agree with Perry Noble when he says that he doesn’t pay attention to his blog critics; but what if the blog in question is one that is specifically set up to bring down your church and your ministry?  How should you respond.  Case in point. What would you do if you were Pastor Frank?  Ignore?  Confront?  This type of thing is starting to do major damage in many churches.  Don’t underestimate the power of the rogue blogger.  (By the way, I don’t know any of the situation of this church, or this blogger… I just use this as an instance to make you think about what you’d do if this type of thing happened in your church.

    QUESTION:  If you were Pastor Frank, how would you respond?  Or would you at all?

    A Couple More Great Posts on Vulgarity
    If you took last week off, you might want to read through some of our posts last week about Chuck Swindoll and Vulgar speech.  There were a couple of new, excellent posts over the weekend that you might want to check out on the subject.  One is here from Parchment and Pen from a pastor who actually worked side by side with Chuck; and Andrew Jones (the tall skinny kiwi) has a post on language here.  They’re worth your time to read. 

    QUESTION:  Were there words you were not allowed to say growing up that are now common place enough that you AND your children freely use them?  If so… why is that?

    Washington Times Piece on Small Churches
    “About 52 percent of American churches are in rural areas. Yet more than half of weekly churchgoers attend services in places that are among the most populous 10 percent of congregations, according to the Hartford Institute on Religion Research. That leaves some of the estimated 177,000 rural churches scattered across the country with as few as two regular worshippers.” Interesting read.

    QUESTION:  Will there be little white churches still alive in rural America in ten years?  Why or why not?

    Nothing to do This Weekend?  Here’s an Idea...
    Balloons apparently were boring. A young man returning home from a church mission in Mexico found his family’s home completely wrapped in newspaper.
    “As soon as the headlights hit the house it was like, ‘What has happened?’” said Kelly Wigington, the father of Mormon missionary Brian Wigington. “I’ve never seen anything like this before.” The family returned from the Salt Lake City airport about 1:30 a.m. Thursday to find the unusual welcome home decorations. The pranksters were Brian Wigington’s friends, who volunteered to remove the newsprint. It took three hours to wrap the house. “Some of these guys have too much free time on their hands,” Kelly Wigington said.  SOURCE

    QUESTION:  What’s the craziest prank you’ve ever pulled?

    OK… that’s it for today!  Have a great one!

    PS—If you have something you think I should include in Today’s Buzz,

    It's Monday... you may have a critic from yesterday to contend with. But what if they call you to repentance... publicly... on a blog? How would you respond? We'll discuss this; as long as the plight of many small, rural churches, a couple of follow-ups on Chuck Swindoll and vulgarity; and an idea for you to do this weekend if you get bored. It's all in today's buzz...

    Comments

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    1. bishopdave on Mon, June 04, 2007

      Who is Pastor Frank, and what has he done that requires repentance?

    2. Todd Rhoades on Mon, June 04, 2007

      Uhhh… yeah, Bishop Dave… it does help when I link to the story, doesn’t it!?


      The link is now there; and you can actually read my ‘case in point’.


      Todd

    3. Peter Hamm on Mon, June 04, 2007

      If I were Frank, I’d respond from the pulpit, especially if the issues brought up were “impressions” that the blogger got from him rather than straight facts, as some might be here.


      That blog you linked is an unbiblical, uncivil, unloving way to respond to concerns. Wrong wrong wrong…

    4. Andy McAdams on Mon, June 04, 2007

      I read the things that Pastor Frank is being asked to repent of.  I suppose I agree with a few, but most sound like sour grapes from someone that may have been important at the church…and isn’t any longer.


      What amazes me is no matter how many times we are instructed in scripture on how to handle conflict and offenses of all sorts…it isn’t done.  Have we changed Matthew 18, Galatians 6 and other passages for, “go and create a web blog and post things that will rip your enemy to shreds? “

    5. don on Mon, June 04, 2007

      Wow! What an ugly blog. If I knew anything about judgement and touching God’s servants I would not want to be one of the bloggers friends. do you think he feels better after he spew’s this stuff?

    6. Leonard on Mon, June 04, 2007

      Great links on culture and language, thanks for the links.  As for Pastor Frank, this stuff is just going to grow.  As long as we let bitterness take root in our hearts, we will find ways to pass on the poison that grows from its plant. 


      BITTERBLOGGERS like this feed the bitterness of others, pour poison into the wounds of others and turn them bitter.  All the while they feel justified because of some voice they think sounds like God. One telling phrase was (“I plan to send this posting directly to Frank, so that those who are concerned about me gossiping behind someone’s back will have their concern addressed.)” 


      As though gossip only takes place behind someone’s back and as though saying something to someone’s face (not that he did this yet) is correct.  This is the convoluted world of BITTERBLOGGER’S.  Just crazy.


      11:00 am was the accepted time of church because it allowed farmers, ranchers and such to take care of their farms and still get to church.  Too many of these rural churches are holding on to traditions and the “Way we were” mentality to be innovative enough to fill their places again.

    7. reGeN on Mon, June 04, 2007

      i just posted a question on their blog about whether or not they have attempted to address their issues in person with the leadership rather than airing them out on a blog…i’m not comfortable with that at ALL…sometimes i get the sense that some christians believe Jesus cant read blogs (or hearts) when we post….troubling

    8. Johnpaul on Mon, June 04, 2007

      Hello all,


      As one of the founders of the City Business Church blog I just wanted to let everyone know that I appreciate their comments and can understand their position. Bitterness is very dangerous, and we must always be careful to not allow it to slip into our lives.


      For the record, I have had numerous meetings with members of City Bible Church (the church we critique). I have met with 3 different elders, a couple pastors, and a few of the teachers at the college there. In addition to that, I have sent letters and emails to Pastor Frank attempting to share my heart and to try and schedule a meeting with him (he refuses to meet…which is understandable considering the nature of my blog). We are not simply throwing stones from a distance, but have attempted to reconcile directly.


      All that being said, as harsh as our blog may sound to some…you should here the stuff that comes from the pulpit of this church. It is not a healthy environment for Christians to grow in. I know this personally as I spent 10 years attending City Bible Church believing what they taught. I thank God I was delivered from that place.


      I wish we didn’t have to have this blog, but someone needs to take a stand against the false doctrines of this church.  Until we came along, no one was willing to do that.


      -Reformed Pope

    9. Peter Hamm on Mon, June 04, 2007

      johnpaul writes [For the record, I have had numerous meetings with members of City Bible Church (the church we critique). I have met with 3 different elders, a couple pastors, and a few of the teachers at the college there. In addition to that, I have sent letters and emails to Pastor Frank attempting to share my heart and to try and schedule a meeting with him (he refuses to meet…which is understandable considering the nature of my blog). We are not simply throwing stones from a distance, but have attempted to reconcile directly.]


      Johnpaul, thanks for the update. I have one question. Did you attempt to contact and work things out with these folks and specifically Pastor Frank before or after you started your blog?


      Also… [I thank God I was delivered from that place.] Is it possible that if you are no longer a member of that church and in fellowship with them that you are not the one to do the criticizing?

    10. An Unscrupulous Man on Mon, June 04, 2007

      Yeah, that blog blows. It would be FAR BETTER for them to write their own book for inclusion in the Bible, where Frank’s sins could be recorded and preserved for THOUSANDS of YEARS. You know, like the account of Annanias and Saphira for lying to the Holy Spirit, Simon the Sourcerer for trying to buy the anointing from Peter, Paul’s dispute with Peter over having bacon breath and popping a handful of Tic Tacs whenever the Jews from James came calling, Paul’s dispute with the Judahizer’s who required gentiles to be circumcized ... surely it was bad form for those who wrote the scriptures to make a permanent record of those people’s sins.


      Yeah, ignore the scriptures concerning public rebukes, marking false brothers, etc. Just go on in blind ignorance. Yeah, that’s the ticket.


      Word.

    11. Peter Hamm on Mon, June 04, 2007

      Unscrupulous…


      In all the situations you described, the people who confronted were in ongoing community with those being confronted. This is not the case here, as JohnPaul has left that church. Also, in all the situations you describe, the opposition is personal, to the “face” of the one being opposed, that is also not the case here, as a public forum has been opened up.


      your examples are EXCELLENT. They show biblically how this SHOULD be handled, and I don’t see this situation as handling it this way. I shouldn’t, in my neck of the woods, know ANYTHING about that church’s conflict. It should be between the members of the church, not anybody who can navigate to it on the internet.

    12. Johnpaul on Mon, June 04, 2007

      Peter Hamm Says: Johnpaul, thanks for the update. I have one question. Did you attempt to contact and work things out with these folks and specifically Pastor Frank before or after you started your blog?


      The answer is No, and I will admit that it was wrong to have started that way (I have apologized for that, btw). We didn’t really think about much when we started the blog and we just went for it. Then it quickly became a big deal. 2 weeks later I met with Marc Estes, one of the elder’s at City Bible, to discuss things. The conversation was a waste of time. He didn’t listen to anything I had to say and threatened me 4 or 5 different ways trying to manipulate me into quitting. It didn’t work.


      I should have had that conversation before I started the blog, but I can’t change that. I have pages upon pages of emails between Marc and I that I would be happy to send you if you wish to see my attempts at reconciliation since then.


      Peter also says: Is it possible that if you are no longer a member of that church and in fellowship with them that you are not the one to do the criticizing?


      That may be the case, but don’t my ten years there give me the right to say something? City Bible Church does not allow anyone to disagree with them. If you do, you are quickly shunned from the church. It is very hard when you are inside the church to be able to say anything at all and often times you don’t realize how bad things are until you leave. That was my experience.


      The first week my wife and I were at our new church we were blown away by the teaching. It was straight from the Bible and completely centered on the Gospel of Jesus. I barely knew what that was at the time. Over the next couple of months we realized that this was the type of teaching we would receive every single week. Regardless of the topic, ever sermon is based on our need for the Grace of God in our lives. It is amazing.


      It wasn’t until then that I realized how bad things were at my former church. The constant teaching on self, image, and prosperity; the constant pleas to give them more money; and the complete lack of the Bible in their sermons are what led to our blog. Approximately 1 out of every 3 sermons given at CBC are based on giving them money so that you can get more in your life. That is wrong and it shows where their heart is.


      I wish someone within the church would be able to stand up against this, but it isn’t going to happen. Until then…we continue to blog.


      Out of curiousity Peter, do you have any connection to City Bible Church?

    13. Just Thinking on Mon, June 04, 2007

      As someone who reads only a select few blogs, I have learned that it is important to read many, many posts (and in City Business Church Blog’s case: many, many of the comments as well), to have a true understanding of the spirit and nature of a blog and the people who post/comment there. It is impossible to accurately assess someone (or something), based on one moment or one interaction with them. Even if you are a good judge of character, the dynamics are totally different when speaking to someone in person - watching them interact with others, mannerisms, small nuances of speech, movement, etc - than if you are simply reading their words, adding your own inflections and putting everything through your own filter while sitting completely detached from who that person really is. It takes a lot longer to have an understanding of someone or something in this particular dynamic.


      I guess I am just saying that before you decide that someone/something is “ugly” you should take the time to really get to know or understand that someone/something. Not everything is as plain or simple as it may seem.

    14. Peter Hamm on Mon, June 04, 2007

      I have NO connection or any real knowledge of City Bible Church. Never heard of it till today.


      Johnpaul writes “The answer is No, and I will admit that it was wrong to have started that way”. Then I urge you to cease immediately. Getting off on the wrong foot was the wrong way to go. The best sign of repentance of that would be to shut down the blog (It might even have an impact on those you are criticizing if you do). You have no moral authority here, and imho it taints the integrity (or outright invalidates your opinions and statements) of what you are doing.


      Also “That may be the case, but don’t my ten years there give me the right to say something?” imho, not necessarily, especially if the original “corrections” you have attempted were started in a wrong manner, as I feel you have volunteered that they have.


      “I wish someone within the church would be able to stand up against this, but it isn’t going to happen. Until then…we continue to blog.” With all due respect, you seem to be indicating that you are, “simply throwing stones from a distance”. You are not in fellowship with that church anymore. I don’t see where you have the authority to make the statements you are making, even if they are true. It is, fortunately, not your job, but the Holy Spirit’s to convict men’s hearts.

    15. An Unscrupulous Man on Mon, June 04, 2007

      > In all the situations you described, the people who confronted were in


      > ongoing community with those being confronted. This is not the case


      > here, as JohnPaul has left that church.


      Does the Church at large, i.e., Jesus Church, have any responsibility to communicate to the brethren, any warning about false apostles, false prophets, false brothers, false teachings? Or, can only the followers of the false ones try to bring light to the falsehood from within? That does seem to be the case you’re trying to make, Peter - that only a follower of Frank - someone who is a card-carrying Damazian, can confront Frank in his error / sin. Is that what you are saying?

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