Monday Morning Insights

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    Today’s Buzz:  Sex Sermons, Controversial Churches, Narking on Adulterers, and Blue Like

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    Sex Sermons by… John MacArthur?
    Well, it seems that Granger and other innovative churches are not the only ones preaching on sex.  The difference is, I think, mainly in the titles.  Here are John MacArthur’s titles on sex:

    Sexual Purity, Part 1 (1 of 2)
    Sexual Purity, Part 1 (2 of 2)
    Sexual Purity, Part 2 (1 of 2)
    Sexual Purity, Part 2 (2 of 2)

    Here are John Piper’s:
    Sex and the Supremacy of Christ
    Avoiding Sexual Sin, Part 1
    Avoiding Sexual Sin, Part 2
    The Enthronement of Desire
    Satan Uses Sexual Desire
    Sex and the Single Person
    “This is the Will of God for You: That You Abstain from Sexual Immorality”
    “It is better to marry than to burn with passion"—What does this mean?

    And Mark Dever pushed the limits with: 

    Christian Hedonists or Religious Prudes? The Puritans on Sex

    “The Enthronement of desire"… (I’m blushing)…

    A couple of things I wonder about… is much of the controversy over sex mostly because of the intended audience?  The above titles sound great as sermons for Christians; but not for people who don’t know Christ yet.  (Come to church with me, Sunday… we’re talking about “Sex and the Supremacy of Christ!") And… for all the controversy over the different sex series many churches are doing these days, I’ve yet to hear one comment from someone about how against scripture that actual message on sex was in any of these series.  All of the controversy has to do with the titles/marketing around them.

    You can see more ‘appropriate’ sermons on sex (if you’re into that kind of thing)… here.

    Should the Church Be Controversial?
    I guess this story fits really well with the first one.  Should the church and its ministers be controversial?  Here’s part of the article:  “No matter what you say or write, there is no controversy until someone does not agree with you. To that person, what you are saying or doing becomes controversial. You can often get some idea of whether you are right or wrong simply by who agrees and disagrees with you. When a person, by what he believes, speaks or writes, leads others to debate, argument, disputation and disagreement we quickly label him as being controversial.” I’m not sure the article really gives any answers, but it’s a good question to ask. 

    So… how controversial is your church?

    OK… Here’s one for Discussion:  Should You Publically “OUT” Sin Confessed in Counseling Sessions?
    I’d really like to hear from everyone on this one:  The Texas Supreme Court has made a mockery of professional standards for licensed counselors by dismissing a woman’s negligence case against a pastor who disclosed her extramarital relationship to church members.  The case focused on the “conflicting duties” of C.L. Westbrook, who is both a licensed professional counselor and pastor of an evangelical church in Fort Worth. He disclosed Peggy Lee Penley’s affair after she confided it to him in a counseling session.  While Penley based her negligence claim on the secular duty of confidentiality that a counselor owes a client, Westbrook invoked the constitution of the CrossLand Community Bible Church, which requires church elders to discipline members whose conduct “violates Biblical standards.” In unanimously siding with Westbrook, the Supreme Court deferred to “the autonomy of a church in managing its affairs and deciding matters of ‘church discipline ... or the conformity of the members of the church to the standard of morals required of them.’”

    More here...

    So… what is most important:
    1.  Confidentiality of a counseling session
    2.  Confession and repentance
    3.  Church Discipline
    4.  Restoration

    How would you/have you dealt with this kind of situation?

    Blue Like Jazz:  The Movie!?
    The author of Blue Like Jazz, Donald Miller writes at his blog:  “Steve Taylor and Ben Pearson have been in Portland for the past week and we’ve pretty much completed the screenplay for Blue Like Jazz the movie. We’ve been working on the script for about a year, either with me flying to Nashville for a week at a time to sit around a table and hash out the story, or with Steve and Ben coming to Portland to stay at my house. When studios became more excited about the screenplay, we felt the need to wrap it up, and in the last few days we’ve pretty much done so. And I dont know if I’ve had more fun, or been more challenged, with any other writing project. I’m excited to see how the guys end up shooting the story.  To say we’ve given the book a Hollywod treatment is an understatement. The book itself would be, of course, difficult to turn into a movie, and so we took creative liberties. But in my opinion, the movie will be infinitely better than the book. Essentially we’ve taken the major, real life characters from the book, and gave them a story all their own. The end result is provactive and humorous and in my opinion quite moving. I cant wait for people to see the film.”

    That’s it for today!  Have a great one!

    Todd

    Would you go see "Blue Like Jazz": The Movie? How controversial is your church? And John MacArthur's creative titles for his own sex series. These are just a few of the things we'll talk about in today's buzz...

    Comments

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    1. Another Jeff on Thu, July 05, 2007

      Regarding the pastor who disclosed the affair:  I guess it depends on what other cirucmstances occurred.  I mean, did the counselor tell her to end the affair and she chose not too.  In that case her refusal to stop sinning would warrant the discipline.  Personally, church discipline makes me uncomfortable.  I understand the biblical references for it.  I get that.  I also think of the lady caught in adultery and Jesus’ response to her.  My hang-up with church discipline is my gut feeling that the people doing the discipline may not be in a position to offer that up….not unless they’re without sin.

    2. Wendi on Thu, July 05, 2007

      Sex sermons – Good point Todd.  I think that the content of these sermons is irrelevant to those who have found fault.  They are opposed to doing anything (like choosing a sermon title) to appeal to the “seeker.”  These folks make the leap, without any supporting evidence, from trying to reach seekers with (among other things) the title of a series, to bad message content.  Heaven forbid that someone seeking answers to their messed up relationships should find their way to our church because their interest was piqued by the title of a message series.


      OUTing confessed sin – I agree, the supreme court did make a mockery of professionalism in counseling, and contributed to making Christians look stupid.  This woman DID have a case against her pastor.  In our cultural context, it is appropriate for pastors who provide counseling submit to the “laws of the land,” which were quite reasonable in this case.  And the playing of the biblical rule card, IMO, doesn’t work here.  According to Matt 18, informing the congregation is the very last resort and the goal is always restoration.  Since this woman confessed, I’d guess that restoration was quite within the realm of possibility without having to “go public.”  I’m not sure how much time should be given for the HS to work before resorting to the public tactic, but my experience has been that sometimes it takes years. 


      Blue Like Jazz – I’m having trouble imagining Donald Miller’s musings (which I really enjoyed reading) as a movie.


      Wendi

    3. Leonard on Thu, July 05, 2007

      I think I disagree Wendi.  The rest of the article did not indicate she was repentant and while the article does not go into great detail about the process it sounds to me as if Matthew 18 was sited and followed. After many years of pastoral counseling I find that confession and repentance do not necessarily go hand and hand.  In a pastoral setting often confession is a look for affirmation.  “Please tell me God will be okay with my decisions” The reality is many people who come to a pastor for counseling do not seek to be restored through repentance but rather given the green light, God will forgive you so do what you want anyway speech.  Many people have left my office angry because I did not give the okay.  Most of those leave the church.


      Jeff, the story of the woman caught in adultery is IMO not really a guide for this kind of thing.  If it were there would be no spiritual authority to deal with sin in accordance with Matthew 18.  Matthew 18 tells us that when we follow its process that the Presence of God is there…Where ever 2 or 3 are gathered there I am… the 2 or 3 are the required witnesses and God said when you go through this process.  The requirement is not being without sin but being a witness.  He also says that the authority to restore and not restore are given… Whatever you loose or bind on earth will be loosed or bound in heaven. 


      Having been in the position to discipline people in the church, I will say that this is something we should enter with a broken heart not a powerful disposition.  It is something we should do for the sake of the body, for the sake of the sinner and for the sake of God’s honor amongst the people.

    4. dpastordan on Thu, July 05, 2007

      1.  People do want to know what the pastor is preaching on.  I know some like to use titles as a marketing tool.  But when I was younger, when I was inviting folks to church I was often asked, “What is the pastor preaching on lately?”  I would often keep it simple:  finances, family, forgiveness… It was easier to remember than some of the sermon titles.  Simple is better.  Sometimes the pastor would preach through a book of the Bible and I would say, “Ephesians and there is a lot meat there.  Have you ever wanted to understand the Bible?”  That did bring a few folks to church as well.  Keep it simple.


      2.  Outing Sexual sin?  If a person requires more than six sessions with me, I send them to a licensed Christian counselor.  Jesus lays out the procedure in Matthew 18 which I have found to be quite useful.  The key is to instruct the person involved in sin to stop.  That means a recognition of accountability, responsibility to confess, repent, seek reconciliation with others, and be restored.  Done at the lowest level, there should be no need for “outing” when the person stops.  It is not about “OUTING” sexual sin…it is about “OUTING” an unrepentant soul.  That is why Jesus has the other two steps.  I have found this to be my best counseling technique.  Those who did truly repent have become stronger Christians and members of the church.  Those who refused to repent generally remove themselves.  In 14 years of ministry, I have only had to go the the second step twice and the third step once.  Meeting with a person early on “nips sin in the bud” and saves a lot of trouble.  About 80 percent were actually relieved when I gently confronted them and they repented. 


      3.   Haven’t read the book yet.

    5. Peter Hamm on Thu, July 05, 2007

      I wanna see “Blue Like Jazz” really bad myself…


      Also, I’d be VERY careful about “outing” sin. VERY careful indeed. maybe if we had more sermons on sex we’d have less of these problems… http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/wink.gif

    6. Another Jeff on Thu, July 05, 2007

      Thanks for your insight Leonard.  I appreciate it.  I do think that the key is in whether or not the person in question is truly repentant.  If not, that’s the issue that should be dealt with, not the sin itself.  I believe that’s what pastordan is saying as well.

    7. Leonard on Thu, July 05, 2007

      Peter, Matthew 18 is careful. 


      I think we have to be careful about the language of outing as it is more than likely a secular or hurt description to a biblical process.

    8. Josh R on Thu, July 05, 2007

      Seems to me that privacy is more of an American value than a biblical value. As Christians, I think we should walk in the light.

      I would think pastors should be very clear about which value system that they are working under when they counsel somebody to eliminate any confusion about the confidentiality or lack of confidentiality of the discussion. If they are being forced to neglect their biblical duties in order to conform with secular law, then they should not try to fill both roles.

       

      Church should be controversial, but not in a political sense.  The controversy should come from advising it’s members to live lives that are contrary to social norms, and having their lives transformed through obedience to God’s Word.  I don’t think controversy is of much value unless it is transforming at the same time.

       

    9. Dave on Thu, July 05, 2007

      I know of two churches that had to deal with a staff member caught in an affair.  Both churches announced to the congregation why the staff member was stepping down.  Both times the final outcome seemed good.  For one thing, gossip was stopped in it’s tracks.  Truth was known to everyone, so gossip had no foothold.  That’s huge.  I’ve seen gossip destroy a church.  Also, I was surprised how supportive people were to all parties, those who sinned and those who were hurt by it.  I don’t the final outcome at one of the churches, but at the other, the staff member, after following through with counseling and other steps outlines by church leadership, was eventually restored to a ministry position. 


      This situation is a little different because the individuals did not confess in a counseling situation, but were caught.  Also, they were staff, so they betrayed not just their own families, but the entire church, so an announcement to the entire church seems appropriate.  And the outcome was good.


      Dave

    10. Nathan on Thu, July 05, 2007

      I certainly hope they don’t talk about porn in this series:


      “Should pastors address porn? No, not from the pulpit. What is left of the innocence of our children today, thanks to Hollywood, shouldn’t be taken by the pastor on Sunday, with huge posters around the church announcing his “Porn in the Pews” sermon series.”


      http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?p=343


      And it would be a tragedy if they actually advertised these sermons:


      http://mondaymorninginsight.com/index.php/site/comments/in_defense_of_sex_sermons/


      Gotta love those arbitrary standards http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/grin.gif

    11. shadowette on Thu, July 05, 2007

      Wendi,


      I would highly recommend reading the opinion of the court.  I have read through page 4 and concluded that the court was correct.  The history of this situation shows that the plaintiff was well outside of a formal counseling session when she revealed her affair.  This is not a mockery of professionalism, but a good call based on factual evidence presented to the court.  It appears as though, she was embarrassed by what she had done, and decided to “punish” someone for it.  Originally, she had sued the entire church, elders, and Pastor Westbrook, but when the lower court dismissed the cases, she decided to only sue Westbrook.

    12. Camey on Fri, July 06, 2007

      Forgive this being off topic especially if it posts twice.


      JULY 6th, 2007


      URGENT REQUEST! Our church is in need of vans for 40 individuals in Kentucky. If you can be of any help in regards to this.. please contact me directly at [removed]
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      Thanks…

    13. Joann on Fri, December 14, 2007

      Good article, Todd. Thank you for sharing it with us. The story about the woman confessing to her pastor about having an affair, only to find out that it wasn’t kept in confidence, reminded me of what just happened to me last week: On Friday, I confessed to my group at my weekly Kinship Meeting that I was having negative and very destructive thoughts, and I asked for prayer in overcoming these unwanted thoughts. Well, it turned out that someone from the group had spilled to our pastor that I wanted to hurt myself, who then spilled it to my dad as he was cleaning our church building the following Saturday morning, who then spilled it to my mom when he returned home, who then told me about it later that day. Well, this wasn’t at all true, as I have no desire whatsoever to commit any kind of harm to myself in any way, shape, or form (it was my fault, though, that I didn’t explain to the group more clearly what was really going on). What was really going on was, I was feeling somewhat violent and destructive for some reason that I cannot explain, and my destructive thoughts were simply targeting a favorite non-living object of mine that I recently purchased and received online about three months ago (by the way, I did receive prayer, and so far, I am learning to take responsibility by not allowing myself to do anything stupid that I might later regret. In other words, prayer works, and God’s grace has taken hold). Anyway, I was very upset that I couldn’t trust anyone from my group not to let anything about me leak to my dad, as he is a shame-based, legalistic control freak who won’t give me the freedom to do anything that I enjoy, and he never listens to anything I say, anyway (I have to stay with my parents until I can move in with a close friend of mine because I am developmentally disabled and require living assistance). He completely misunderstands everything I say, plus he used to sexually molest me, plus he and I are too much alike in temperament so we just don’t see eye to eye anyway, so I obviously do not want to trust him with anything, ever. However, I did get the problem resolved with two of my group members last Sunday in church, so everything is back to normal now. So, what’s my point? My point is this: Sometimes it is necessary to make it everyone’s business in church that you are involved in something that isn’t right, especially if it is having a negative impact on your spiritual growth, and you aren’t disclosing the full story, no matter how upset about it you are. There is always someone there to love you, support you, and help you with your problem, even if you need to be lovingly disciplined or maybe even disfellowshipped. After all, if you don’t want it to be anyone’s business, then just use the old “don’t ask, don’t tell” rule that was favored during the Clinton Administration over the gays in the military issue: Simply don’t say anything at all. However, it is upsetting when you can’t trust anyone, not even your fellow Christians, with anything, especially just weeks after a discussion about what is said in the room, stays in the room, during a Friday evening Kinship Meeting with your group. I am no longer going to spill any more of my secrets in a group setting. Instead, I will speak only one-on-one with a close and trusted friend, and make sure I make everything clear to her so that I do not get reported, and my parents never find out. The woman who confessed to having an affair probably should have kept quiet also, especially since she wasn’t going to repent of her sin. Sad, isn’t it?

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