Monday Morning Insights

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    Today’s Buzz:  Tommy Newsom, Pastoral Ethics, a Fundamentalist Turncoat, & John Stott

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    Tommy Newsom Dies
    Remember Tommy Newsom from the old Tonight Show with Johnny Carson?  He was the back-up to Doc Severensen that Johnny always called “Mr. Excitement”.  Well, Tommy died earlier this week at age 78.  Not sure why I share that here.  It really has nothing to do with church leadership… just something I remember from growing up.  ALthough I’ve seen my share of flamboyish Doc Severensens and borish Tommy Newsoms in worship leader roles in churches. 

    QUESTION:  Is your worship leader more of a Doc Severensen or a Tommy Newsom?

    Pastoral Ethics
    My friend Tommy Mitchell over at Rurban Church has posted his own personal pastoral ethics code.  You can see his post about this, and his rationale behind it.  Then you can download the PDF here.

    QUESTION:  Do you have some written code of ethics that guides your behavior?  (I know, I know… the Bible.) But I mean a short code of ethics you can pull out and measure your self with?  If not, do you need to take time to develop one?

    Fundamentalist Turncoat
    Here’s an interesting new website from Dr. Joseph Zichterman.  He evidently has turned from a leader in the fundamentalist realm to take a, well, less-fundamentalist view… even joining Willow Creek Community Church. Zichterman writes, “I have been involved in many different religious groups from Catholic to Quaker, from Presbyterian to Southern Baptist. Several years after committing myself to Christ, I was persuaded by very sincere Christians to become an independent, separatist fundamentalist, and ultimately I ended up speaking at churches and conferences as a church growth antagonist. After many years of contemplating fundamentalist theology, coupled with a series of life-altering events, I finally decided to forsake my separatist roots and reconcile myself with the rest of the body of Christ...” I haven’t listened, but his audio presentation sounds interesting:  “Why I Joined Willow Creek Community Church”.  It’s supposedly his refutation of the fundamentalist movement.  (Of course, being raised in fundamentalist circles, I find this interesting).  You can visit his website here...

    QUESTION:  How many of you have taken a similar journey… being raised in fundamentalist circles, only to leave that world for where you are today (reading MMI!) It seems that many I know actually grew up in fundamental, independent Baptist churches.  Which tells me one thing… there must be a lot less fundamentalist baptist churches today (or else they’re just full of young people who haven’t left yet!) What’s your take?

    John Stott Decides to Retire
    World renowned theologian and evangelist The Rev. Dr. John Stott has made the decision to retire from public ministry at the age of 86. Stott, who has been called by the Rev. Billy Graham “the most respected clergyman in the world today,” will formally retire after fulfilling one final speaking engagement in July 2007, according to an announcement made by John Stott Ministries (the U.S. movement of the Langham Partnership International), the ministry Stott founded to equip churches around the world.  He will be moving from his flat in Bridford Mews, London, where he has lived for more than 30 years, to a retirement community for Anglican clergy in the south of England which will be able to provide more fully for his present and future needs. John has made this decision with the strong belief that it is God’s provision for him at this stage.

    QUESTION:  Has John Stott influenced your ministry?

    Neighbors to Ohio Church:  Shut up Already!
    Neighbours of Worshippers of Christ the Warrior King Church have petitioned the city, saying screams and sounds of glory and praise coming from the building are a nuisance. But church members contend they’re being harassed because of how they worship. “Sunday morning is God’s day of worship,” Rev. Troy Sowell said. “I’m not going to tell this congregation, ‘You’re being too loud.”’ Sowell says he’s open to finding a solution but is not going to forfeit his right to worship God. Police responded to noise complaints three consecutive days during a revival last year, after the congregation moved in. “They have a sound system over there that is very loud,” said neighbour Reginald Winters. “I’m in my house with the door shut, and literally, my windows are vibrating in my house. ... This year, it’s started right back up.” The church closed its doors and windows, but the complaints have continued, said Jerena Copeland, associate pastor.

    QUESTION:  At my church, it’s the people in the seats that sometimes complain it’s too loud… How do you handle complaints about sound issues?

    OK… that’s enough for today.  I’m off for a short trip to San Diego later today.  Hopefully I’ll have time to keep up here at MMI as well during my trip.  Have a great day!

    Quite a variety of things on my mind today... Tommy Newsom, a REALLY LOUD church, John Stott, a helpful resource on pastoral ethics, and a fundamentalist turncoat? All in one post? Are you kidding? How does he do it?!! Well... let's just say I'm kinda scatterbrained.

    Comments

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    1. Brad Raby on Wed, May 02, 2007

      I grew up in the old school fundamentalist movement.  Hyles, Hudson, Rice, Roberson - They all came to my church.  I surrendured to the ministry in those days.  Went to Tennessee Temple (Now Liberty South).  The Whoke nine yards.


      I had a curious mind - that would be the ultimate componet to my departure.  I didn’t invite many of my friends to church as a teenager because they would feel very awkward in their normal clothing attire. 


      2 things led to my departure. 


      1.) As a youth group we were going to a college basketball game.  Naturally, I invited the basketball players form my school (I was the athlete type) In the dead of winter the girls naturally wore pants.  However, our girls were in coulottes (sp?) and long shorts.  My friend looked at them in amazement and said “How can you wear shorts in this weather?”  Then our youth ministry’s young ladies, embarrased beyond belief, informed her they were required to.


      2.) I asked my Pastor for a KJV only defense.  He gave me a book that was full of cartoon illustrations!!  I read the arguments and actually looked up the ‘missing verses’ in the NIV and such, only to find that they weren’t missing.  I began to investigate outside my church culture.  First came Adrian Rogers and David Jeremiah.  Then Moody guys.  Next thing you know I am at Andy Stanley’ conferences with Rob Bell in my CD player.  No Ipod yet, sorry.


      Long story short I brought my entire family and my entire wife’s family over to the MMI side of life.


      These days if you are a member in my church and you see me in a suit it is really good news OR really bad news, because I am either at your wedding or funeral.

    2. Todd Rhoades on Wed, May 02, 2007

      ‘the MMI side of life’.  I love it!


      Great story, Brad. 


      I remember my pastor calling me into his office after I told him I was going to Cedarville.  He told me that God told him that I needed to go to Bob Jones.  I just laughed and said… evidently God is telling you something different than he is me!


      Who knows what would’ve happened if I’d attended Bob Jones.  I’d probably either be leading hymns in some baptist church somewhere or be a total ‘back-slider’.  http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif


      Todd

    3. David Morris on Wed, May 02, 2007

      John Stott has had a huge impact on my ministry.  As I look over at my book shelf I see the classic “Basic Christianity” along with some excellent commentaries on Acts, Romans, Ephesians, 2 Timothy….  His book “Christian Mission in the Modern World” radically challenged me and my view of evangelism’s intersection with social action.  In 1981 I read these words, “Evangelical Christians are now repenting of the former pietism which tended to keep us insulated from the secular world, and are accepting that we have a social as well as an evangelistic responsibility.” (p. 31)


      I am grateful for his years of faithful service and the incredible impact he has had on the world for Christ.  I just cannot quite get the picture of Rev. Dr. John R. W. Stott showing up for Wednesday morning bingo with his fellow Anglicans!!!

    4. Bart on Wed, May 02, 2007

      Todd,  Had you gone to Bob Jones instead of Cedarville you would probably be serving God in some way just as you are today.  Tread lightly here.  I grew up in the idependent Baptist type church, have moved and attended several other Baptist and EFree churchs, and now am a pastor at an independent Baptist church (second career, long story).  We use the NLT Bible a lot, are not at all separatist, and are active with the other churches in town.  I have a great respect for the people in these independent, fundamentalist churches, just like I have a great respect for the people in some Lutheran, Presbeterian, Methodist, and other “liberal “ churches that are great at social justice but never preach the gospel.  I have great respect for the people in Pentecostal and Assemblies of God churches that shout and speak in tongues.  I don’t agree with them, but repect their commitment and dedication.  When God said there were many parts to the body, he stressed that we would not all appreciate the other parts.  Slamming other churches is just like all the posts ranting about the evils of Rick Warren, Willow Creek, etc.

    5. Todd Rhoades on Wed, May 02, 2007

      Hey Bart,


      Please don’t take my post as a slam on anyone.


      Truth is… If I’d still be in the “Bob Jones” fundamentalist camp, I probably would be a ‘minister of music’ in a conservative, fundamentalist ‘BAPTIST’ church.  There’s nothing wrong with that.  I do think that there is a good chance that I might have also fallen by the wayside and not be serving God at all these days.  And the only reason I say that is because it seems that many of the people I grew up with in that type situation have not kept the faith long-term because they’ve been turned off by much of the legalism that sometimes accompanies that.


      Of course, I wasn’t dissing ‘baptists’.  I grew up baptist; and still identify with that upbringing in many ways.  And, of course, MANY of the readers of MMI are, actually, baptist.  (Some proud baptists, some not).  http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif


      I, for one, am very thankful for my past.  It gave me a great faith base as I was growing up.  As with many movements, there were excesses… legalism being the one prevelant in my past.


      Of course, you know as well as I do that attending an EFree church, or using an NLT bible (or, for that matter, not being a separatist) will get you ostricized from many of the churches I was trying to describe.


      As a side note, I think it’s also interesting that you urge me not to slam other churches, and still you say some ‘Methodist’ churches are great at social justice, but never preach the gospel.  Yes, some… but not all.


      We all come with certain presuppositions and opinions.  And if I implied that I put all fundamentalists OR baptists in the same basket, that’s surely not what I intended to communicate.


      Todd

    6. Leonard on Wed, May 02, 2007

      I too was a fundie.  My mother had been divorced so we were black sheep fundies.  My brother rebelled and it was not until he was 30 that he actually surrendered to Christ.  By that time he was no longer welcome in the fundie world.  I went to a fundie college, to become a fundie preacher.  I was excellent at the rules too. 


      My departure stated when Billy Graham came to my city and I was forbidden by my pastor to go.  I went anyway and some of my friends became Christians.   I started working with YFC and the doo doo hit the Rotary Oscillator then.  It was then that I realized we just couldn’t get people clean enough to be accepted in my fundiworld so they could be accepted by God.  In college I worked on Skid Row for a year and God broke my heart, my pride and I left fundiland for good.


      I appreciate the respect my heritage gave me for the word of God and obedience to God.  I am indebted to my heritage for my passion for holiness (even though fundies would disagree).  I am so grateful for the disciplines of faith I learned in study, memorization, prayer, spiritual formation and in respect for the church.  These were anchors for me as I sorted out the journey of faith I took from fundiland.   I will never go back but I am not bitter or wounded either.

    7. Todd Rhoades on Wed, May 02, 2007

      Leonard wrote:


      “I appreciate the respect my heritage gave me for the word of God and obedience to God.  I am indebted to my heritage for my passion for holiness (even though fundies would disagree).  I am so grateful for the disciplines of faith I learned in study, memorization, prayer, spiritual formation and in respect for the church.  These were anchors for me as I sorted out the journey of faith I took from fundiland.   I will never go back but I am not bitter or wounded either.”


      Wow, Leonard… that’s exactly what I was TRYING to say.  I am so thankful for my heritage and at the same time so thankful to be freed from certain aspects of it.


      Todd

    8. Leonard on Wed, May 02, 2007

      I think what I was trying to say is that in Fundiland I felt there was no room for someone with the gift of evangelism unless it involved sanctifying them a bit before they God saved.  That in essence is what opened the door for me to leave not a sense of being wounded.  It is not just the gift of tongues that struggles to find a place in fundieworld.

    9. REvJEff on Wed, May 02, 2007

      Growing up baptist, I was TAUGHT (they actually did say it) that the catholics and Lou-thrins (that’s how they said it in my ‘hood)  were all going to hell - “quickly.”  Imagine my surprise when as a freshman at a secular university I met people who loved Jesus and were’nt baptists!?!?!?!! 


      One of my best friends was used to teach me that God has called out some to be Christians despite their denominational luggage.  Rumor has it that even some from my baptist churchheritage will be in heaven.

    10. fishon on Wed, May 02, 2007

      I must say, listening to you all talk about your experiences growing up in “Fundie” churches almost makes me glad I was NOT exposed to ANY religion until I was 33. Heck, listening to you all talk makes me think I, maybe, would have never become a Christian if I had been around those “fundie” folks.


      fishon

    11. kent on Wed, May 02, 2007

      In my senior year of college at North Park John Stott spoke at the seminary and somehow I went and listened to him,, and it was during his sermon I heard God call me. I am absolutely sure he had been calling for a while but I am notorioulsy deaf, but in Dr. Stott’s message I knew. and I obeyed.

    12. Camey on Wed, May 02, 2007

      Our Minister of Music and Worship is new as of January. His first Sunday out of the gates, he told this story: “One Sunday I was leading ‘I Surrender All’… I wasn’t. I couldn’t go on with singing a lie. I stop singing and sat down.” Spoke volumes to me.. still does even thinking about it. Gutsy move. He’s more familiar with hymns but is making a great transition between all three of our services (tradition, contemporary & blended). He’s somewhere in the middle of those two.


      Yes, I do have a written personal code of ethics. Just got smack up side the head with it today in fact. I called someone else out on something to then not more than 30 minutes later to do the same thing myself. OUCH!!!!!  Of course, the other person involved laughed and commented yet again about my not being perfect. lol


      “the MMI side of life” - that helps explain some of my story… heh heh I’ll put it this way. I have always been a part of a particular denomination. I’m just not into name dropping. lol No, seriously. I’ve found out the older I get (39 yrs and counting) that being a “this or that” denomination does not necessarily mean squat. People get tied up about it and can lose focus. I stopped saying, “Hi. My name is Camey and I’m a _____.” Yes, I am still a part of a denomination but that doesn’t mean it is who I am first and foremost. (hey, I’ve just come back from a field trip with a bunch of 3rd graders. Maybe that explains my mood.) Fundies? Nope. Have not been a part of that camp. Most who I know have been have left or are starting to consider it.


      Complaining about the sound….. “It’s too loud.” “It’s too quiet.” Funny enough? Our youngest son said the first and my mom the later. lol Just goes to show…...... We’re getting a new sound board and speakers. I think this speak volumes about the first part of my comment as well. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/wink.gif

    13. Peter Hamm on Thu, May 03, 2007

      Sorry, I was never a fundamentalist, although many of my friends were, and they weren’t very excluvisit, so my experience was good there. I grew up Catholic, but when I was a teenager, my spiritual formation started in the hands of a bunch of Catholics who were the “real deal” and really loved Jesus.


      In short, I’ve spent some significant time in every branch of Christianity it seems, and I haven’t had a really bad experience yet… Lucky me.


      If your sound system is disturbing your neighbors enough to make local news then 1.) You are damaging your and your congregation’s hearing and 2.) You are decidedly NOT doing your best to live at peace with everybody. I’ve gotten a few complaints when the sound was too loud. (I can’t tell, I’m almost always on stage and wearing in-ear monitors). I respond graciously and really listen hard to those people. Sometimes they are right, and I fix it.

    14. Brent on Thu, May 03, 2007

      I love the line, “I finally decided to forsake my separatist roots and reconcile myself with the rest of the body of Christ.”  That’s how I feel after coming out of the IFB movement, like I’ve finally hooked up with the rest of my family.  I suppose I get a little bitter whenever I stop to consider what I came out of, but most of the time, I don’t even think about it.


      I went to the DREAM conference at Church on the Move last week.  10 years ago, it would have freaked me out to be surrounded by so many charismatics.  I’m glad to say I actually had an awesome time!

    15. Leonard on Thu, May 03, 2007

      Someone once asked me what is a Fundamental.  I said sound it out. 


      Fun is what they are against


      Da is what they say


      Mental is what they are. 


      Fun-da-mental


      I guess you now know the real reason the baptists kicked me out.  (smiley faces all over this page)

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