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    United Methodist Pastor Reinstated as Pastor Drew Instead of Pastor Ann

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    Neal Gallico lives next door to the Charles Village church and says, “It makes more sense to me if you arrive at that juncture in your life and you make that decision that you’ve been in the wrong body for this number of years than it’s a good step and it’s a mature step.” Max Berest agrees adding, “It’s all about if he inspires people and if his congregation is comfortable with it, it doesn’t really matter.”

    However, some conservatives in the group United Methodist Action were appalled releasing a statement saying, “Someone struggling with sexual identity issues needs the ministry and guidance of the Church. But the Church would be wrong to bless a so-called sexual identity change, with or without surgery.”

    It is unclear if the Rev. Pheonix has had an operation but admits to seeking medical attention. The Reverand was greeted with open arms as he asked for an official name change before the Church’s Regional Conference in Washington, DC.

    The Methodist Church bans openly gay clergy, but has no rules about transgender pastors.

    SOURCE:  ABC2News.com
    More here at the Church Report...

    FOR DISCUSSION:  This is at least the second transgender pastor I’ve read about in the past six months.  How should the UMC respond?  How should UMCs who oppose this direction respond?  What will or should be the last straw?

    Rev. Drew Pheonix says he has had a "spiritual transformation" that apparently is a sexual transformation. In the past year, Rev. Ann Gordon has changed identities to become Rev. Drew Pheonix. The congregation of St. Johns United Methodist Church on St. Paul Street supports the pastor. In fact, in the five years the Reverend has ministered at the church membership has more than tripled.

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    1. Daniel on Tue, May 29, 2007

      This is a difficult question. We live in a broken world and sometimes things go dreadfully wrong.  Surely we can affirm that God’s intent is that our brain structure match our anatomy, but perhaps we can agree that this isn’t always necessarily the case. In general, I don’t think there should be ‘rules’ for these kinds of scenarios, but rather they should be treated on a case by case basis. The Church needs to exercise discernment, without blanket condemnation (though individual yes’s and no’s will of course be appropriate at times).


      My two cents.


      -Daniel-

    2. Keith on Tue, May 29, 2007

      Sigh….  Call me old fashioned, tell me how it is this verse appears in a list of dietary restrictions, or that our culture has “moved beyond this now because women wear pants….


      But just look how simple it would be if we just read and follow the Bible….


      A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.  - Deuteronomy 22:5


      This most recent perversion is just another example of how confused people are. If the church leadership cannot discern something as simple as this and make the right choice, why would the world EVER look to us for answers?

    3. C Fontenot on Tue, May 29, 2007

      Daniel,


      What happened to H-O-L-I-N-E-S-S?  How can any Christian excuse debauchery, willful sin, and abominable lifestyles and still be considered a true Christian?  Jesus calls us to a sanctified life and a mind of Christ so I “discern” that Jesus would never have excused or accepted this person’s decision to follow the temptations he/she followed.  He would call it what it is!  SIN! 


      “...without blanket condemnation…”?  The Word of God says they are condemned already because of unbelief.  I have no desire to condemn this person but to lovingly tell them the truth that if he/she dies in their sins they will suffer eternal judgment.  This person is a product of the modern Gospel presentation t of “God is love” and that He wants to make you happy.  God is love and He is just.  His Word says He will not clear the guilty.


      This person needs church discipline, Daniel, not a sappy tolerance in the name of the “love” of God.

    4. Daniel on Tue, May 29, 2007

      Keith, I whole-heartedly agree with you that men should wear men’s clothing and that women should wear women’s clothing.  I’d perhaps take issue with grounding this in Deutoronomy, since common sense is all that’s necessary, but whatever.


      The issue here is whether or not our sibling in Christ is a man or a woman, not the kind of clothes he or she should wear.  Usually looking between the legs is enough, but sometimes, because we live in a fallen world, there’s more ambiguity than we’d like.  Some people are born with one ovary and one testicles.  What kind of clothes should they wear?  Some people are chromosomally male (XY), but because of non-traditional hormonal flukes at puberty, look (from the outside) like women.  You’re welcome to research intersex if you’d like more information.


      Granted, not every transsexual is intersex, but it’s a possibility—which is why I’m (still) against blanket condemnation.  We have <u>no details</u> about the specifics of this situation.


      Our world is broken, complex, fractured, and so I insist that the Christian thing to do is to use discernment on a case by case basis.


      Fontenot, do you know something about this person that I do not?  Why the hurry to damn them to hell?  We know nothing about their ‘lifestyle’, and nothing about their sanctification.  All we know is that there was a name change.  I firmly believe in the just judgment of God (which will be applied to ALL of us, by the way), and I firmly believe in the calling of the Church to be ‘set apart’.  But is it that “sappy” to suggest that because we aren’t omniscient, we should hold our tongues?


      May we all grow in patience, love and discernment.


      -Daniel-

    5. bishopdave on Tue, May 29, 2007

      Todd’s question: What will or should be the last straw?


      Boy if this isn’t the last straw, I’m switching to alfalfa. We talk about standards sinking lower, I wonder if the pit is in fact bottomless.


      Sorry, I’ve just got to ask:  Does “Rev. Drew” enjoy Chuck Swindoll’s preaching or find it offensive? The group that ousted Chuck from their network would say, “This (Drew Phoenix) is exactly what we told you would happen for tolerating all that worldliness.”

    6. Todd Rhoades on Tue, May 29, 2007

      That’s quite a jump… from me saying the word “crap” to deciding to become of “woman”… but I would guess you’d be right… they WOULD say that.


      Todd

    7. dpastordan on Tue, May 29, 2007

      There is not enough information in this article to discern if this person was born with elements of both sexes.  It does happen.  I believe the term is hermaphrodite.  If this is the case, surgery and other medical treatments are possible so that person can be one or the other sex.  Still, being a hermaphrodite does not exempt the person from living a holy life. 


      A person with a brain of one sex in the body of the opposite sex is harder to prove or discern.  Celibacy may be an option for such a person who engages in religion. 


      Too me, this person should not be ministering but ministered to.  There is obviously something going on in this person’s life. 


      I know the article mentions how this person has inspired the congregation and it has grown.  So?  I know of a universalist fellowship that has grown as well.  Not all “growth” is of God but often, even in Christian churches, the result of human effort.

    8. Daniel on Tue, May 29, 2007

      Dpastordan, just as an FYI ‘hermaphrodite’ is a mythological term referring to someone who has the (fully functional) organs of both sexes.  There is no such thing as a true hermaphrodite (and intersex people do not refer to themselves as such). 


      I’m curious… how is one person’s gender problem “the last straw”?  The last straw to what? of what? for whom?  Unless there’s an argument to be made that trying to deal creatively with a sexual abnormality is sinful, and that this sin is only one in a long line of sins… I’m not sure why this would break the proverbial camel’s back.


      Anyone care to enlighten me?

    9. Keith on Tue, May 29, 2007

      Daniel,


      Thanks for your “wisdom” on this, but actually I had a college course in Human Genetics. We covered “mutations” and hermaphrodites were covered, along with pictures!  I’m well aware of the physical abnomality.


      What you apparenlty missed, however, was that this does not appear to be a case of a “wrongly diagnosed at birth” sex of the child, raised as teh wrong sex issue.  In fact, if you do a web search with the correct spelling of the name…  Drew Phonex” you’ll find their entire congregation is at the center of “pushing acceptable, scriptural boundaries in relationship to sexual practices.”  I quote from another news source…..


      “The United Methodist Church has no explicitly stated, official policies regarding sexual identity changes or sex change operations, but does officially disapprove of homosexual behavior. Rev. Phoenix’ congregation supports the “Reconciling” movement within United Methodism, which campaigns to overturn the church’s official teachings on marriage and sexual ethics. “


      RE: “ground this in Deut.” well Daniel, I’m a person of the word AND “common sense.” While there are other scriptures that clearly teach a man is supposed to dress and act like a man, and a woman is supposed to dress and act like a woman… I felt it was good to show that answers to what GOD THINKS about this kind of crap is found clealry in the word.


      For those who like to dabble in contextual issues too… you might be interested to know that Canaanite religions often practiced transgender dressing.  Furthermore confusion of the sexes and homosexual or beastial sexuality seemed to be themes that the God of the Old Testament was very interested in distancing himself AND his people from.


      But again, thats just the Bible, and you know, its full of dietary regulations that have no place in our lives…. (sarcasm here for those who have trouble discerning it.)


      K.

    10. Daniel on Tue, May 29, 2007

      The correct spelling is “Drew Phoenix”, of course (typos are everyone’s bane).


      It may well be that this particular individual’s gender re-assignment is suspect (though again, I don’t know Drew, so I’m still not comfortable making hasty judgments).  My point has never been that people should be allowed to pick and choose their gender and dress however they choose.  My point has simply been that we live in a broken world where things sometimes go weird.  Given this fact, we should be slow to roll our eyes in deploration of ‘how far’ the United Methodists have gone.


      That’s enough for me today.

    11. C Fontenot on Tue, May 29, 2007

      dpastordan,


      Great point!!

    12. PastorTroy on Wed, May 30, 2007

      I think that almost every post in this thread has missed the point, or what should be the point.  I realize that we live in a fallen world with all kinds of brokennesses.  We must use the Bible, wisdom, and discernment to deal with these issues.  True, we don’t have enough information in the article to know if this person is living in a sinful relationship or not.  I do have a problem with a person making a sex change, however.  I don’t think God has given us the liberty to do that.  The real issue I see is that this person is a pastor.  Pastors are real people with real issues, BUT an issue of this magnitude would seem to disqualify said person from the pastoral ministry.  Is he/she living a life above reproach and being the exemplary type of person that all should follow?  I hope no body answers in the affirmative on this one.  I could never put myself under a spiritual leader who had such issues.  Neither the growth of the church, nor the affirmation of the congregation validates the position of this person as pastor.  That, I think, is the real issue here.

    13. Rev K on Wed, May 30, 2007

      As a female minister, I am going to tread these deep waters with you gentlemnen.  I have read the Christian Bible over and over.  I read of many miracles and healings.  However, I never read where God of the OT, nor Jesus of the new NT performed a sex change.


      I am bi-vocational.  As a nurse I work with the Mentally Retarded/Developementally disabled population.  The males engage in homosexual activity because they have developed this life style and know no other. Judgement= homosexuals by ignorance.


      Trandsgender or sex change.  Judgement =homosexual by choice.


      Case and point.  The problem is yes Pastor Drew needs ministering to, and should not be pastoring to the poor in spirit or to others seeking sound christian doctrine or spiritual guiandance. My favorite scripture where God’s word addresses relationships for human beings comes from Mat 19.4-5.  Haven’t you read the Scriptures?” Jesus replied. “They record that from the beginning ‘God made them male and female.’*  5.  And he said, ‘This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.’* NLTV


      The hermaphrodite or intersex issue raise a candid question.  Are these people in one gender and knowingly having sex with the same sex person? Or are they mentally challenged.  If they are the first or latter let us pray for Spiritual leaders who are designed after God’s design in Mt 19.4-5 for image of a a husband and wife.

    14. DanielR (a different Daniel) on Thu, May 31, 2007

      Keith,  Deuteronomy 22:5?  Aren’t pants men’s clothing?  Are you saying women who wear pants are being unbiblical?  Clearly men should be men and women should be women but I’m not sure how you would apply Deuteronomy 22:5 in today’s world.


      Right, wrong, whatever, I’m not sure how Rev K arrived at “mentally challenged”? 


      I think the point here is that whether Rev. Ann/Drew’s decision and “transformation” is acceptable to some in his/her church, it is obviously something that is going to be unacceptable, or at least a challenge, to many in the church and is something that should not be forced upon them.  This is obviously a very personal decision for this person and should be undertaken in private, not in the very public eye of the church. 


      If a Pastor is going to make a decision like this, or divorce or any number of things that would be a challenge to a congregation, he or she should resign first.  Do what you have to do in your life, but do it in your life not in the life of your church.  Go thru it hopefully with the love and support of your church, but not as the leader of your church.


      A congregation should not be put in the position of either accepting something that would be such an obvious challenge and arguably unbiblical / unacceptable to Christ, or leaving the church if they cannot accept it.

    15. Poyeye on Thu, July 30, 2009

      As Popeye was fond of saying “I yam what I yam.”  Thus this icon of American animation speaks with a wisdom that fails the bleeding hearts today; those who are speaking with great ambigutiy while secretly “inebriated with the exuberance of their own verbosity.” Plainly—they are fasinated by the sound of their own voice, their many words about as substaintial as the bubbles in a glass of champain. The perversity of the many “isms” of our time are easily seen in the light of an honest view of biblical morality, and by the light of conscience which even a child understands. Even a cartoon character has more widsom than man leaders today.

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