United Methodists and Satan
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Mon, August 11, 2008
- Viewed 399
- (27) comments so far
And not only do Methodists avoid talking about he-who-must-not-be-named. They don’t sing about him either.
C. Michael Hawn, professor of church music at Perkins School of Theology, says United Methodist churches are prone to lop off the last few stanzas of Martin Luther’s hymn, “A Mighty Fortress is Our God,” to protect unsuspecting worshippers from having to sing the third stanza, with its references to “this world, with devils filled” and “the Prince of Darkness grim.”
“Most of the discussions of evil in mainline Anglo churches,” said Dr. Hawn, “are not anthropomorphic in nature—references to a physical being called Satan or the Devil—but theological or much more general.
“Regretfully, many United Methodists don’t even want to discuss sin, let alone the devil.”
So why all this “denial” about the devil?
You’ll have to read on here to find out!
Hey… we have a good amount of UMers here… what’s your view on Satan?
I just read an interesting article over at the UM Portal. Here's part of it:
Though Methodism founder John Wesley talked about Satan in his sermons, the United Methodist Church has no official doctrine on the devil or the demonic. Few Methodist ministers in the U.S., it seems, preach about Satan as a personal being active in the world today...
Many United Methodists, for instance, gasped during the 2008 General Conference when an African delegate on the floor argued that homosexuality was “of the devil.”
It wasn’t just his position on homosexuality that drew the offended gasps, says Jerry Walls, who taught philosophy of religion for 21 years at Asbury Theological Seminary. Adding the devil to the conversation made it a “double offense” in the minds of some delegates.
“Bringing up the supernatural reality of Satan is enough to make a typical United Methodist go into conniptions,” he said...
Comments
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Matthew Johnson on Mon, August 11, 2008
I’m a UM pastor. Do I believe in the reality of Satan and hell? Yep. Am I going to preach with either or both as the center? Nope - for the same reason I don’t engage in what some people call “spiritual warfare”, binding demons and whatnot. Who are they compared to Jesus Christ, crucified and risen? Dr. Hawn mentioned the lopping off of the third stanza of A Mighty Fortress, something I’ve never seen or experienced in a UMC, but Luther got it right “We will not fear, for God hath willed His truth to triumph through us.”
And Satan? “One little word shall fell him.” Speaking the name of Jesus Christ in glory and praise through our worship and praise is as though we are nuking hell.
Ray Reavis on Mon, August 11, 2008
I am a United Methodist pastor, and I discussed Satan in my sermon yesterday. Satan wasn’t the focal point, because as the first commenter pointed out, Jesus Christ overcomes all evil. I think Satan certainly has a role, and I try to underscore the fact that we are all prone to temptations by Satan. But I also don’t believe in elevating his powers too highly by making the devil the focal point of the sermon.
Pat on Mon, August 11, 2008
To the first two commenters, is it true that the UMC does not even have a doctrine on the devil? I’m a Quaker and in our book of Faith and Practice, there is actually a section on Satan that describes our denomination’s stance—who the devil is, how he rebelled, that his power is limited and how Christians, through power of the Spirit, can resist him and have victory over him. There are also a number of Scriptures for reference.
While I don’t believe in glorifying the devil, I do think it is important that people are aware of who he is and the promises that are available to them in overcoming him.
Howard Porter on Mon, August 11, 2008
I am a Lay Speaker in the UMC. Whether talking with others or speaking from the pulpit, I do not hesitate to speak of hell, Satan or the power Satan wields in this world. To deny the existence of Satan or hell denigrates the power and purpose of Jesus Christ. Ignoring the obvious presence of evil in the world is an act of political correctness that has had serious repercussions.
Helen Betz on Mon, August 11, 2008
Matthew Johnson wrote:
“I’m a UM pastor. Do I believe in the reality of Satan and hell? Yep. Am I going to preach with either or both as the center? Nope - for the same reason I don’t engage in what some people call “spiritual warfare”, binding demons and whatnot. Who are they compared to Jesus Christ, crucified and risen?”
They are nothing compared to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ…That doesn’t mean we aren’t supposed to deal with them. They didn’t stop existing and working when Jesus went to Heaven. Jesus bound them and cast them out because he was showing US how to do it. Believe me, I shied from this as well. It’s not a pretty area of the journey. But The Lord has shown me that this spiritual war is real whether I like it or not.
I attended a UMC church that I loved dearly but was unwilling to deal with this aspect of things even though there was spiritual damage happening right in our faces. The Lord led me to a place that equips believers to walk in everything Jesus gave to us when He took back the keys to the Kingdom. (and no, it isn’t a weird backwoods cult). If we as followers of Christ do not do what Jesus called us to do (all the things he did and more) under His sovereign leading then the devil has that much more of a chance to gain footholds in this world - he would like nothing more than for Christians to be neutered in their effectiveness and walk in defeat, relying on their own “understanding” of things.
Does this mean we seek demons under every bush or look for a fight with the demonic? No…And shame on the people who turn it into a show. But we also should not sweep the whole issue under the rug because it’s messy and not fully understood.
The war is won but the battles are still to be fought…Paul tells us as much in Ephesians 6:12: “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”
Was he just talking pretty? Do we think that this battle somehow went away in our human intellectual/psychological/medical enlightenment? Hardly…
We are not powerless in the face of evil. We Christians MUST stop living as if we are. Jesus will not do for us what He has equipped us to do for ourselves. And while psychology and medical knowledge is a great blessing there is a whole other battlefield in which to fight.
It is important to cultivate our relationship with Christ and learn to hear His voice so that we are ready to deal with these things as they arise.
CS on Mon, August 11, 2008
I was a member of the UMC for some time, and I can’t remember any sermons during that time that focused on the devil, but I go recall a few in which he was mentioned. Then again, our pastors were pretty “with it” when it came to explaining the full gamut of theology.
It’s silly to think that the devil is not a real being whose influence still affects men today. Every believer should have some knowledge of the tempter, how he works, his motives, techniques, and ultimate demise. Does it need to be mentioned regularly? No. But can we just put our heads in the sand and pretend he doesn’t exist, as many in the UMC do? No.
—
CS
Mark Babb on Mon, August 11, 2008
I, too, am a United Methodist clergy. I believe in Satan, but I think for many of my UM brothers and sisters, they tend to say “evil, the devil, Satan—wherever you are in your faith journey.” The church is attacked daily by the forces of evil, whatever you wnat to call them. I am a middle-of-the-road theologian, much as the Wesleys were, yet I am very socially progressive. Evil is real, but to call our fellow humans of the devil is wrong. The Gospel of Jesus calls us to love and accept people where they are, and to help them find God in their lives. Jesus comes to us in many ways, as does Satan. I agree with Dr. Soles who said we need to pay attention once again to the Screwtape Letters, and learn to be a community of Christ to be recloned with.
Gary Sweeten on Mon, August 11, 2008
I agree with Matthew that we ought not overemphasize the devil. However, as a therapist I also see a need to assess the issues facing us.
For example, if one of my parishoners or clients is depressed I have one kind of intervention. If the person is addicted I have another. If we cannot even mention depression or anxiety or alcoholism how can we best intervene?
In my thirty years of counseling I have met many Christians who refuse to believe in depression or addiction. They say every problem is a demon. They cannot “name the problem of mental illness or addiction” and thus have no good intervention. Those who refuse to mention evil, Satan or sin have no ready intervention because there is no accurate assessment.
When Martin Luther wrote, “One little word shall fell him” about whom was he speaking? Was he speaking about depression, anxiety, mania, addiction or adultery? If we refuse to mention the problem how can we know the solution?
Martin Luther also knew about depression and he did not try to cast out a demon in every depressed person. He knew how to do a differential diagnosis but I am afraid some modern Believers have thrown out some of the most important diagnostic categories with their baptism water.
CS on Mon, August 11, 2008
Mark Babb:
“Evil is real, but to call our fellow humans of the devil is wrong. The Gospel of Jesus calls us to love and accept people where they are, and to help them find God in their lives.”
You’re right, God does call us to love people where they are and to preach the Gospel to them so that they hopefully repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ. Yet God, through John, called people, “children of the devil,” in 1 John 3:8,10, to show their sinful nature.
—
CS
Helen Betz on Mon, August 11, 2008
Very well said, Gary…We have to rely on the Holy Spirit - the most wonderful gift that Jesus has given us (next to salvation itself) - to lead us in discerning what we are dealing with. There are often many layers to an issue. We are, after all, made up of body, soul and spirit. There is a lot of overlap.
Not every case of depression or other illness is demonic at its root. As one who deals with OCD I can attest to this. Medication did wonders. In addition, standing against a generational bent toward depression and anxiety that runs through my family has also helped. I have now come off one of my 2 medications. I have learned to recognize and stop agreeing with the lies that I was encouraged to believe in my illness.
I agree with Matthew that Praise and speaking the name of Jesus are wonderful ways of sending away evil from our presence.
Shoring up and closing doors so that he doesn’t return are additionally helpful.
Lee on Mon, August 11, 2008
I am a UM pastor who just finished a sermon series on sin, which I find very rarely with many of my fellow pastors. We want to protect and encourage our self-worth instead of pointing out the worth that is given through Christ. As a whole the world has moved away from accepting our faults and have laid all the blame on others; eg. my parents made me like this, I am a product of my environment. When we can admit we are in spirtual warfare with Satan and rely upon the power of the Holy Spirit , we will come to a true chaging of our lives.
James Cooper on Mon, August 11, 2008
I’m not a member of the UM clergy(!), in fact I’m a Baptist from the UK. Among my Christian friends there seems to be a real ‘gap in knowledge’ about Satan/The Devil, angels and ‘spiritual beings in general.
I run the site whyangels.com to hopefully put across some information about these matters in a Biblical and easy to understand way.
I’ve done a page on the evil side as I think it’s important to know what we’re up against (and have victory over!). http://whyangels.com/devil_demons.html
Pat on Mon, August 11, 2008
Helen, congratulations on your victory over OCD!
Helen Betz on Mon, August 11, 2008
Pat,
Thank you!! To God be the glory as we say! http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif He showed me everything I needed to fight the battle. It’s nice to have peace in my head.
Daniel on Mon, August 11, 2008
What I wonder is: what difference does it make?
Obviously there are tales of the demonic in the New Testament, and obviously the early Christians talked about ‘the satan’ as a way to name the non-human forces of evil at work in Rome and in the world. But if we assume that ‘Satan’ as a personal being is ‘the’ view of the early Church, we miss all the biblical ambiguities surrounding (for example) Paul’s use of ‘principalities and powers’ language (on which, see Wink)—which seems to fuse political and spiritual realities (leaving it ambiguous whether the spiritual could exist ‘on its own’).
The key point is this: evil is parasitic and embodied. Disembodied evil could never harm a fly. Rather, it is the grip of demonic forces on the mind and on social institutions that cause havoc, and it is these which we resist by thinking on whatever is good and pure and true, and by conforming our behavior to the enemy-loving pattern of Christ.
Evil is evil, but I’m not convinced we need an expansive ontology (with hierarchies of angels, and pseudo-divination about demonic names) to tell a compelling story about the world we live in.
My two cents.
-Daniel-
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