When can the Pastor fight back? Part 1
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Wed, January 17, 2007
- Viewed 118
- (16) comments so far
More pastors I know get the wind knocked out of their sails by people who speak without thinking. Many pastors wear out over time because of the church member(s) that constantly complain, criticize and gossip about the pastor. Is it ever okay for a pastor to respond abruptly and give a little rebuke? Can a pastor to be a little bit curt in their reply to the critical church member?
When can a pastor simply look at the gossip and say, would you just shut up? When can he look at the person who complains about the length of the sermon and say, “would you like to try it sometime?” Will you just say thank you for the hard work and keep your opinions to yourself. When can the pastor say to the person who complains about the cost of the pastor’s cell phone that the church could afford the cell phone if they actually gave their tithe or didn’t make a 500 a month car payment?
For discussion: Is a pastor ever justified in defending themselves from the verbal fists of the whiny?
How free is a pastor to run someone out of their office who is divisive? When can a pastor exercise the pastoral authority in the life a moaner and groaner?
TAGS: Church Leadership; Church Conflict
About the author: Leonard Lee a regular commenter here at MMI. He is also a church planter and a veteran of over 25 years of ministry. He is married to his best friend and they have two awesome kids. He currently pastors Bayside of Central Roseville and loves to hunt, fish and play.
How nice does a pastor have to be? How much does a pastor have to endure from his or her church when it comes to the people who have been gifted to OBSERVE. You know the ones of which I speak. They are the people who feel compelled to instruct the preacher about the perfect length, style and tone of every message ever preached. It is the person who knows more than the worship pastor about how music should be sung, the volume at which music is best heard and the era all songs should come from. This is the entitled person who believes their tithe gives them the right to dictate. It is the individual who knows the best way to reach everyone, the most effective use of money, why every pastor should be always accessible but not have the luxury of a cell phone.
Comments
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drbob on Wed, January 17, 2007
HERE,HERE! This is a topic I can really identify with, especially from a music stand point. I consistantly receive notes or emails from members about the songs, “use hymns”; I use hymns, a little upbeat, “no, we want to sing from the hymnal”; so I include the hymn no. in the bulletin. “We want you to call it out”, or “I saw the title and number, and was so excited, but it was not the version of the hymn that I know”. Then there is the ever present “take a poll of the congregation”. What does the word leader mean? We are to take these dumb sheep and lead them to a closer relationship, to be more like Christ. Didn’t Paul tell Timothy that “all scripture is inspired for the rebuking, reproof, and instruction. Of course not every complaint is of a biblical nature; sometimes these sheep just like going to familiar pastures, and aren’t used to grazing for long periods of time, or only like certain kinds of grass. Go ahead, set them straight in Jesus’ name!!!
Jade on Wed, January 17, 2007
How about respectfully disagreeing. “Pastor I thought you sermon was a little long.” You say, “I thought the length was good, I am glad we can disagree and still get along. I was not aware that you took classes on sermon preparation. That is good to know. Oh you didn’t?” Pastor I thought the music was loud this morning.” You say, “I thought it was just right I enjoyed it, though if I had a complaint about the music I would go to the music pastor rather than the pastor. I am sure he would like to hear your ideas since I don’t pass them on to him/her! Course First Baptist down the road is awful quite you could see if you like there service….infact I will drive you there glady every Sunday”
Having a little fun! Ok so Maybe a little sacastic!
Jade
revvedup on Wed, January 17, 2007
Prov 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.
Sometimes is best to say something in response. If the person is out of line sometimes they need something to jar them out of their box. We can’t be so afraid of the complainers. Let them complain some where else. It might make them think before they say something the next time.
I_am_not on Wed, January 17, 2007
From a non-pastor’s perspective…
Is a pastor ever justified in defending themselves from the verbal fists of the whiny?
Ever justified? Probably so, but each and every situation is so subjective, there’s really not a silver bullet answer. It might sound cliche, but maybe internally asking the question “how would Jesus respond to this?” before responding to “the whiny” would be the wise thing to do.
How free is a pastor to run someone out of their office who is divisive?
Guess from a practical standpoint, it depends on who the person is and what the reason is. Could result in one of those stiuations where the pastor wins and loses at the same time.
When can a pastor exercise the pastoral authority in the life a moaner and groaner?
This is a slippery slope. Make sure your interpretation of “pastoral authority” doesn’t equate to being a rancher rather than a shepherd.
Ken Sutton on Wed, January 17, 2007
I believe that we are dealing with two issues here…
I think that criticism is par for the course in the ministry. I get criticized daily, people in America are very opinionated and critically minded…It is the consumer mindset. With criticism we have to have the fruit of the Holy Spirit developed in us as Ministers…Love, kindness, longsuffering and self control all come to mind. It is difficult to have a persistent critic or many of them in the church…Yet we have to get used to it. Jesus had them and we all have them.
Yet the second issue is related to gossip and I have to admit that I am a little taken back by the question as to whether a pastor can tell someone to shutup. The answer to that is a resounding YES! Infact I will take it a step further and say that if we do not tell people to shutup when it comes to gossip then we are not good pastors. I know that their are many who would like to see the pastors role diminished to the point where he has no authority whatsoever but we must take Pauls admonitions seriously as well as James…It is actually our job to protect the church from the sin of gossip, which can kill a church. It takes courageous leadership but the church will be better off in the long run.
Rev JEFF on Wed, January 17, 2007
I think the key issue for me is to “Speak the TRUTH in LOVE…” I have shot back over the years, and regretted it. I don’t regret it becasue I am now living elsewhere, but because I know it was not the response that showed that person Jesus’ love through me.
SOOOOO how do I TRY to respond now? PRAY for the _________ who make those comments, then confront them in a calm and controlled manner with the TRUTH. Then move on with my day, ministry and family and sleep well at night not worrying about their “giving, gossip, perceived power…. as much as is possible with me I have tried to live at peace… and that is a two way conversation which often means confronting them in love.
Peter Hamm on Wed, January 17, 2007
EASY question.
When the person’s feedback is NOT supportive of the mission of the church, then the feedback is useless, and we will gently tell them that. For instance, our motto and mission is expressed “Reaching People, Changing Lives”. If someone says to me “I want to hear more hymns” I say buy a hymns album. Most of the people who are our guests who are “pre-believers” don’t like the old hymns, so when I do them, I dress ‘em up in new clothes. It is because of the mission I do this, so if you want to hear more hymns, this might not be the church for you. We tell people this ALL THE TIME!
Here’s what’s cool. The older people who you think wouldn’t “get that”? They are EXACTLY the ones who DO! They are in our church because they got tired of being in a church where the lost are not reached with God’s Good News, so they came here. Every now and then I get an older person saying “The music was a little loud today, but I understand why.”
If you are a church that targets people who don’t know God yet, make the mission your whole mission, and you will always have that to fall back on.
The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing…
Bruce on Wed, January 17, 2007
Good subject.
In the latter years of my ministry I took the “I won’t fight” approach. I have often wondered if this was best because it resulted to 2 short term pastorates (I resigned both times)
I simply have no stomach for Church fighting. It is ugly. I hate it.
Congregational rule is part of the problem with many Churches. As a Baptist we give each person a vote. In the Southern Baptist Church I pastored a person could vote IF they attended at least once in the past year. You end up with carnal, unspiritual people making decisions. (and yes the pastor can be carnal and unspiritual)
In every Church, at the end of the day, someone has to be the final decision maker. We can have boards and Church meetings, but it in the end the buck stops somewhere with a person. In most Churches that place is with the pastor.
Let me give a personal story.
Not too many years ago I pastored a Southern Baptist Church in Michigan. It was a dying Church on life support. I looked at it as a Church plant. (and I thought the Church did too) I worked full time with the Church for a part time salary, with my wife working to make up the difference.
The Church building was 6,000 sq feet of mess. The Church had 25,000 in the bank they had been sitting on. I suggested we clean up and remodel the building. 100% vote YES. So we started in. We had meetings, meetings, meetings. Everything was approved.
Things went along fine until we got to doing the nursery. I have very high standards of how nurseries should be. I’ve seen far too many nurseries I wouldn’t put a flea infested dog in. The Church had that kind of nursery. Filthy, dirty toys, dingy, donated broken furniture, exposed electrical wire, and half the floor was concrete.
We successfully remodeled the nursery. Then trouble showed up. A woman (who had aspiration to preach) took it upon herself to furnish the nursery with some junk (and I mean junk) from her garage. Without talking to anyone she brought it in and put it in the nursery. I called her and said I did not want the stuff in the nursery…...............the stuff was not suitable for the nursery and some of it down right unsafe. So we moved the stuff out of the nursery…....War ensued.
She called a Church meeting. I told the Church that I was not going to fight over this (and reminded them that they had entrusted me to make these types of decisions). Some insisted on a Church vote. I reminded them that I told them when I came I would not “fight” with them. So, I resigned.
At the end of the meeting….......here was the most telling comment…..a retired preacher’s wife said “Bruce, this was YOUR vision. It never was OUR vision.” Keep in mind we had meeting after meeting, voted on everything, and had the “vision” issue mapped out, defined, and settled.
After 30 years of ministry I am at the place where I will think twice, I mean 25 times, whether or not to pastor a Church with congregational rule. Too many variables for me. Too many feelings to constantly soothed. Too many ______to kiss. (insert John Piper bad word)
Now I certainly do not think autocratic one man rule is the answer either…...a plurality of elders? Perhaps.
Just one story of many…........
Jan on Wed, January 17, 2007
Is a pastor ever justified in defending themselves from the verbal fists of the whiny?
Yes, especially if they continue to tear down the mission and vision of the pastor and the church.
We’ve had the woman who “prays more than anyone else. so you should do what I say.”
Hmmm?
The disgruntled ex member who has told others how mean they were treated by the pastor. And so now we have the other disgruntled member who now that he doesn’t get his way has decided “Yeah that pastor is really mean!” SEE I’m justified there’s TWO of us!
How free is a pastor to run someone out of their office who is divisive?
I think there is definitely a time to say enough is enough. God did not call us to give into the bully and stop running the race, so that they can have their way. These are people who can easily distract us from “the prize” . Do we believe in our vision? If so, then we have no choice but to lay aside what ecumbers us and to press on. Unfortunately, sometimes these are God’s people.
I think the key is Patience with a capital p and love. Checks and balances don’t hurt either. Have a witness on hand when you finally “get” it. I have a woman that I make sure I am NEVER alone with. She is out to get me. So, I’m wise as a serpent and less target practice for her.
When can a pastor exercise the pastoral authority in the life a moaner and groaner?
I think that’s hard to answer… when they start to hinder ministry, when they begin to take their moaning and groaning to others to sway opinion and caucus for their personal issues, when they begin to accuse and point fingers.
When God tells you enough is enough.
Camey on Wed, January 17, 2007
One time when it is especially worth the pastor fighting back is when it is happening at inappropriate times.
Case in point: A hospital waiting room full of people - say 100 or so. Some from the pastor’s church is there to be with the family of a man having surgery - the others complete strangers with the potential of listening in and watching with their own eyes. The pastor is unable to be there due to a conflict in schedules. A couple of people take it upon themselves to talk not only negatively about the church but in particular about the pastor to the man’s family. “He should really be here especially given who your dad is in our church. Why doesn’t he know what all your dad has done for the church? It wouldn’t be the church it is today without your dad and the pastor should be reminded of that.” WHAT??? Sorry….. my dad was not Christ.
I talked with the pastor about what happened that day in the waiting room because it broke our hearts. It not only made us uncomfortable while waiting for word on dad but also made several others that way too who had come there to support us. For those who I could tell were listening who were not a part of our church….. I cannot imagine what they were thinking. I do not know that I want to. The pastor asked me for names - I gave them. He then talked with those individuals never saying it was me that told him. Just that it “got back to him by an offended party”......
Leonard, looking forward to Part II.
Mark on Wed, January 17, 2007
Another option is to hand the member a little card with “Philippians 2:14” printed on it. Tell them that you think they’ll find great comfort and wisdom in that scripture. They can look it up in their Bible later. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/wink.gif *wink*
Pastor Al on Wed, January 17, 2007
Mark,
In all these years on ministry I have never thought of that? At least putting on a card, I think I will use that.
I also tend to believe that 99% of all “concerns” are born out of the simple condition that people expect others to solve their problems.
For instance if a member comes up and says, “The music is too loud” I would respond, “That might be, but what can you do to prepare yourself for loud music in the future?” Them: “Well, you should turn it down.” Me: “Well, if that doesn’t happen what could you do yourself to alleviate the loudness?” Them, “Well, I could bring some ear plugs.” Me: “That sounds like a good solution; I hope that works out for you.”
Blessings,
PA
Leonard on Thu, January 18, 2007
Thanks so much for the interaction. I can read between the lines and know each of us has a story or ten to tell. You have demonstrated great class and wisdom in these posts as well as in your ministries. I salute your Jesus whom you represent so well!
Mark Jackson on Thu, January 18, 2007
When we “roll over & play dead” in the face of rude comments, gossip & other verbal garbage, our example teaches our congregations that the “Christian response” is to pretend that those kind of sins don’t hurt people & churches.
To quote the noted theologian, Spiderman’s uncle, “With great power comes great responsibility.” We who have been given the “spotlight” should use it wisely to kindly & firmly call people to account for their actions.
In my own church, I’ve instructed our worship pastor to ignore anonymous notes & gripe-y comments about our music choices. OTOH, I’ve told him that a soft-hearted comment about a song/hymn (for example, “Pastor, I really miss singing Victory in Jesus… it reminds me of the night I gave my life to Christ”) should be rewarded - use the chorus as a bridge between songs, or do the whole thing on a week where it fits with the topic.
As the senior pastor, I’ve chosen to ask people who want to gripe to do so in the right forums… one gentleman likes to “score points” off of me & other leaders by asking nasty questions in front of crowds of people. (He doesn’t care about the answers - he simply wants to make his rhetorical “score” and move on.) He’s pretty much stopped since I chose to ask him to take this up at an appropriate time with me in my office… when he started in again 5 minutes later, he made a joke about “being in trouble with the pastor.” I turned and said, “Yes. I asked you to bring that up with me later. Why didn’t you choose to respect my request?”
We have to teach our people to look at the examples of Scripture - those in leadership REGULARLY call people out - sometimes in pretty tough ways - for stuff that is destructive to the church and/or to themselves as individuals. Nathan, Samuel, Paul, Peter, Jesus… this is a line of leaders we should be standing in!
layne on Thu, January 18, 2007
The comments are creative, instructive and helpful. It seems to me that we as leaders in the church need to appropriately call out those who would do damage to the kingdom. I find that I have to challenge myself constantly on right response as well as is this a battle which I need to engage in. Sometimes I need to just let it go, othertimes I must confront it, this is not an easy decision.
I have a suggestion for a card (just a thought) First Corinthians 10:10, whatya think?
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