Which is it? Church OR Business?
- Posted on July 18, 2005
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The press release was for Willow Creek's upcoming Leadership Summit (which I'll be attending by the way at their South Barrington Campus). Here's part of the press release:
More than 50,000 leaders and emerging leaders across North America are expected to attend The Leadership Summit 2005, an annual gathering of church and business leaders, Thursday, Aug. 11 to Saturday, Aug. 13. The Leadership Summit, now in its tenth year, will originate from Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Ill., and will be beamed live via satellite to 110 locations throughout the U.S. and Canada, providing inspiration and motivation for those with leadership -- or potential leadership -- abilities or responsibilities.
Sir John Templeton, regarded by Wall Street as one of the world's wisest investors, concluded in his extensive research that "the common denominator connecting successful people and successful enterprises is a devotion to ethical and spiritual principles."
In the midst of today's climate of corporate mistrust and people's seeking authentic connection, The Leadership Summit is perfectly suited for leaders wanting to build a culture of integrity, character, and effectiveness.
When the Summit began 10 years ago, it was attended almost exclusively by church leaders. As its transferable principles spread outside the walls of the church, companies began sending teams to the Summit and many continue to use it as one of their core annual training events.
So... which is it? Are business principles invading the church, or are biblical principles spreading outside of the church?
For those of you who feel that the church has taken on too many business principles, could you please list your top three examples? I think it would make for a good discussion. 
Just keep it kind.
Todd
One of the common complaints that get expressed in the comments section here at the MMIBlog.com website is people that say that the church is run too much like a business… that church’s now take as much guidance from the business world as they do the Bible. In some cases, I can see the point… but I found an interesting press release at usnewswire.com that put the spin the other way: Business leaders are starting to apply the teachings of the church and religion in their business practices…
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Mark Pryor on Mon, July 18, 2005
The first thing that popped into my mind when I read this was that even Jesus said, “I must be about my Father’s business”.
David on Mon, July 18, 2005
Found it: http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=50141
BeHim on Mon, July 18, 2005
[usnewswire.com that put the spin the other way: Business leaders are starting to apply the teachings of the church and religion in their business practices.]
Which teachings and what religion? I will GAURANTEE they are not teaching THE Gospel (maybe “a” gospel) and there is no doubt they are not using Scripture for doctrine, correction and reproof.
[providing inspiration and motivation for those with leadership—or potential leadership—abilities or responsibilities.]
Is this THE Gospel or is it a gospel? Q: What are they “inspired” by and to do what? What is their “motivation”? We cannot worship both God and Mammon.
[Sir John Templeton, regarded by Wall Street as one of the world’s wisest investors, concluded in his extensive research that “the common denominator connecting successful people and successful enterprises is a devotion to ethical and spiritual principles.”]
“ragarded…. as one of the world’s”. That should say it all. Are we here for treasures? This is the point of the different gospels. Self!
[So… which is it? Are business principles invading the church, or are biblical principles spreading outside of the church?]
The question isn’t are people becoming better people (humans), this is humanism at it’s core! Come on pastors, you know good people, even great people, are going to go to hell don’t you?
This is about The Gospel of Christ.
Scripture isn’t profitible to become better people, it is profitible unto the saving of souls. For correct teaching of The Gospel and correct conduct as a servant.
Would business improve as Christian conduct permiates the organization? Yes. But this won’t happen by skipping first the Wrath of God, then The Gospel (THE Gospel) and going directly to “conduct”.
Todd Rhoades on Mon, July 18, 2005
Somehow, that’s what I thought you’d say, BeHim. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
You said, “Which teachings and what religion? I will GAURANTEE they are not teaching THE Gospel (maybe “a” gospel) and there is no doubt they are not using Scripture for doctrine, correction and reproof.”
That’s not what it said… ‘principles’ don’t mean chapter and verse. ‘Principles’ don’t mean necessarily salvation either. The point of the article wasn’t that some businesses are taking on the full armor of God and Christianizing their businesses. No… it was saying that some business owners are now giving biblical principles a try because their current business ethics aren’t working.
What I’m talking about here is Biblical leadership principles? Do those and can those apply to business? Absolutely. Honesty, integrity, relational skills and more can be learned from biblical principles. That’s all this was about.
I really don’t see where humanism fits in here BeHim. I know this is one of the things we disagree on… but is everything that doesn’t fit your mold ‘humanistic thought’?
Seriously… don’t read too much into this article… I just thought it was interesting that the tables are turned in this press release; and what many accuse the church of doing could actually be turned around the other way.
Todd
Ricky on Mon, July 18, 2005
Todd said:
“No… it was saying that some business owners are now giving biblical principles a try because their current business ethics aren’t working.”
And why, Todd, are businesses giving “biblical principles” (a very subjective phrase) a try?
Is it because they truly want to bring their businesses in line with Godly standards? Nope. I don’t think so.
Or is it because they see profits from potential customers that will attend this conference? Yep. I think so.
My view is if a business owner is a Christian then why should he/she need to attend a conference that will deal with ethical practices?
If he/she is not a Christian, then how would they understand and/or apply biblical ethics in their business?
I see this as another entanglement that continues to strangle the life out of the church.
BeHim on Mon, July 18, 2005
[That’s not what it said… ‘principles’ don’t mean chapter and verse. ‘Principles’ don’t mean necessarily salvation either. The point of the article wasn’t that some businesses are taking on the full armor of God and Christianizing their businesses. No… it was saying that some business owners are now giving biblical principles a try because their current business ethics aren’t working.]
Mixing (marrying - like Constantine) the world to the church is a good idea? It doesn’t matter how you say it, marry the church to the world or the world to the church, either way, they are married and this is NOT a good thing.
[I really don’t see where humanism fits in here BeHim. I know this is one of the things we disagree on… but is everything that doesn’t fit your mold ‘humanistic thought’?]
Humanism at it’s core is: Bettering SELF - “We can do it”… “you’re good, you can do it”… “you’re okay, keep going”. It is 100% about self. You see, the world is expected to seek self. The Church is NOT expected to seek self. It’s when they agree to seek self together that you can’t tell the difference (Tony Robbins - you can have your desires fulfilled here by believing in yourself - Joel Osteen - writes a book about ‘your best life now’ - Willow Creek inspires and motivates to improve your business by being [not saved] a good, ethical, honest, integrity, etc. person). You don’t see it as humanism Todd because you choose not to. What basis is this good? On what authority should we agree this is a good thing? or bad thing for that matter.
BTW. Todd, you’re the first one to throw a blow [“but is everything that doesn’t fit your mold ‘humanistic thought’?”] on your own blog after saying not to do it. Why do you feel the need to show contempt for me when I express my opinions?
If I’m wrong Scripturally, let’s go there and discuss it.
Deny self is present throughout Scripture. Sanctify from the world is throughout the Scriptures. Yet, this message (idea, concept, etc) is “it’s ethically good” so at least they’re using the Bible for something. For what? To improve humanity?
Al on Mon, July 18, 2005
The best model for “Business Principles” in a church is the Mormon Church! Is that what we want to become?
I can’t help but think of that rag-tag group of believers who met in homes and caves, lost their businesses, were tortured, were beaten, scourged, crucified, stoned and left for dead. Did not have the approval of the world, were despised and rejected, counted all they knew as rubbish compared to knowing Christ and still with a lack of: mega churches and programs and seminars and seminaries, and colleges and 401Ks and business principles and tax-exempt status and freedom of speech and laws that protected their right to worship – still managed to turn the world upside-down!
And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10 Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Corinthians 12:9-10 (NASB)
Todd Rhoades on Mon, July 18, 2005
BeHim writes,
Todd, you’re the first one to throw a blow.
First of all, I’m the one who wrote the rules AND the one who enforces the rules here. Again, please don’t bring that up in my face. I believe I’ve asked that before of you. That clearly wasn’t a ‘blow’ but an observation on my part. I in no way mean any contempt toward you personally (hopefully you know that by now from all our discussions).
My case in point… How many posts have you read here, and instantly declared ‘humanism’? At least four or five it seems that I can think of in the last couple of weeks. I know that you think that they are all truly humanistic; but I just don’t see it that way. Sorry.
Here’s the definition of humanism from wikipedia.com:
Humanism is an active ethical and philosophical approach to life focusing on human solutions to human issues through rational arguments without recourse to a god, gods, sacred texts or religious creeds.
I really think you need to be careful when you decry everything as pure humanism. I don’t mean to be technical here; but we are talking about God here too… and it’s the same God who wants us to excel and be the best we can be. I’m not at all advocating Tony Robbins or his ilk at all. If they deny God then it is humanism plain and simple… but I think to decry Willow or most of the other ‘innovative’ churches that we often discuss here as humanistic is wrong.
Really, we’ve had this arguement here before, and I’m not in a fightin’ mood http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
All I’m saying with this post is that if someone in the business world is seeing something beneficial that he can use from the church; that that is a good thing. (even if it’s something as insignificant as honesty, or integrity, or the way that you relate with people). I’d much rather see it that way than the other way around (which is where I think your real rub can be found.)
For what it’s worth.
Todd
Jan on Mon, July 18, 2005
Okay Todd, ‘fess up. You read the book of Proverbs too don’t you?
Todd Rhoades on Mon, July 18, 2005
Actually, Jan… the proverbs are a great example of what I’m talking about. Proverbs is chock-full of advice for living (and yes, even for business!) that applies whether you are a Christian or not. Promoting these principles inside and/or outside the church should not be seen as humanistic.
If a business owner does as Proverbs 1 starts out and puts Solomon’s advice “for acquiring a disciplined and prudent life, doing what is right and just and fair” then that’s a good business practice. And it’s good advice.
Does that mean he’s going to heaven? No. I don’t think anyone ever said that.
Steve on Mon, July 18, 2005
Can you believe I am afraid (of all people) to comment here at MMI? Yikes! You guys get pretty serious in here real fast. But I will give it a shot anyway.
I do think for the most part the American church model is run like a business. My top three (very vague) examples (without explanation):
1. Pastors as CEO’s and all of that.
2. Buildings, buildings and more buildings and the fundraising it takes to raise such structures.
3. Equating ministry success with numerical growth and other statistical data…numbers, events, budgets, etc.
Now, what do I think about this press release and the Leadership Summit? I think it is interesting to see business leaders actually attending a church conference to learn business principles…when most of those principles they will be learning are generally coming from the business world.
Warren, Hybels, Maxwell, et al are (without apology) taking a lot of what they do from the business world and applying it to the church. Niche-marketing, “purpose-driven”, Peter Drucker (Warren’s mentor)...all the church-growth guys use the business models and work it into their church. This is a fact and not an idictment - because some of it has proven useful to reaching people. Jesus also used common known things from the culture of his day to communicate with people.
But what I think is exciting about this is that there is a possibility that “far from God” people (some business leaders coming from outside the church) might be attending a “church event” for the first time. Having been to a Leadership Summit before, I know that they will hear about the life-changing love and grace of God. I don’t think that’s too bad…is it?
Ok…now I am going to quietly duck out of here…everyone remain calm! http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Anthony D. Coppedge on Mon, July 18, 2005
You know, healthy discussion that talks about pros and cons is what Todd is asking for here. Thus far, two argumentative (read: I-want-to-prove-my-point-and-not-have-an-open-dialogue) people have posted their one-dimensional thoughts while adding little to the conversation.
Look, we don’t all have to agree, but instead of typing in a rant everytime you post, please try to have an open mind about the post and add constructively to the conversation.
If you want to rant all the time, please make your own Blogs and do it there. I hope I’m not out of line with Todd, but the basic Netiquette tells us that being respectful and sharing our thoughts come before cynical/sarcastic rants.
To answer your question, Todd, I’ve answered this in a previous thread where Ricky went off on a rant. I pointed out that the business principles that can be applied to running the day-to-day business of the church are not inherently evil. Like anything, extremism can cause problems, but using project logs to hold staff and volunteers accountable is a good idea. I don’t see productino documents listed in Scripture, but that doesn’t mean it’s unwise to track time on projects and use metric system to qualify/quantify our time management.
So many of the business principles first appeared in God’s word as commandments or admonishments that we’re not following business as much as business has followed Scriptural mandates (even unknowingly) because they make sense.
To assume business leaders attend church leadership conferences because they want business from that core group is presumptuous, at least, and probably inaccurate.
- Anthony D. Coppedge
BeHim on Mon, July 18, 2005
[First of all, I’m the one who wrote the rules AND the one who enforces the rules here. Again, please don’t bring that up in my face. I believe I’ve asked that before of you. That clearly wasn’t a ‘blow’ but an observation on my part. I in no way mean any contempt toward you personally (hopefully you know that by now from all our discussions).]
I don’t mind pot shots or mild blows while you and I are discussing in private emails but when you’re trying to set the example, it looks like contempt. Don’t suggest you shouldn’t be held accountible just because you set the rules http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/wink.gif
[My case in point… How many posts have you read here, and instantly declared ‘humanism’? At least four or five it seems that I can think of in the last couple of weeks. I know that you think that they are all truly humanistic; but I just don’t see it that way. Sorry.]
Self is prevalent in almost everything “churchianity” Todd. The music, the worship style, methods, practices, etc. It’s so prevalent there is no real contrast by which to measure it unless one goes “outside” their regular belief systems (polor opposite in many cases). Acclaiming self (or a group of selves as is the case with this article) is taught more often than not in most churches. Consider the core message of the article: The world plans to attend The Church to apply Teachings to the world. That just doesn’t even sound right let alone be right.
[I really think you need to be careful when you decry everything as pure humanism. I don’t mean to be technical here; but we are talking about God here too… and it’s the same God who wants us to excel and be the best we can be. I’m not at all advocating Tony Robbins or his ilk at all. If they deny God then it is humanism plain and simple… but I think to decry Willow or most of the other ‘innovative’ churches that we often discuss here as humanistic is wrong.]
The core of humanism is self (or selves). That man is the ultimate sum of all things and we’ll use whatever we need (The Bible, God, Buddha, Mormonism, etc) to achieve our goals. So is your decree that willow or other innovative churches are not humanistic? I don’t mind when somebody believes the exact opposite of what I do… let’s “test” it.
FYI. These things I said in here are not a “rant” unless asking questions and making a statement is a rant??? We’ve all expressed our views and opinions on this and other blogs, no need for pot shots (on either side).
Todd Rhoades on Mon, July 18, 2005
BeHim,
Again on the rules, you managed to jab one more time. That will be the last time (seriously and honestly).
I’m sorry, but we just couldn’t see less ‘eye to eye’ on this if we tried.
No, I do not believe that Willow is humanistic (at least by the definition I gave above).
What is the purpose of Willow Creek then? In your opinion, does Willow Creek offer anything for the Kingdom of God? Are they reaching any true converts through their ministry? Or is Bill Hybels and WC simply a humanistic tool of the enemy to deceive and divert the public? Would it be better if Willow Creek was never planted?
Sorry, but I do agree with Anthony (and not just because he agrees with me)… you just come across as abrasive, BeHim… and that brings out the worst in others (myself included). I’m not calling names or giving pot shots. I hope you don’t feel this way. But your passion for the truth (as you see it) comes off brazenly to many others. Many have said that here.
Rather than argue humanism here (as we have in many previous posts even though it wasn’t the topic)… those of us who are interested in ‘innovation’ hopefully will be able to continue our discussions.
And I said I wasn’t going to argue this one. Argh.
Thanks everyone!
Todd
Dave Baldwin on Mon, July 18, 2005
This is a great question that probably will never be answered to everyones satisfaction. As a Sr.Pastor of a growing church in the 90’s I was amazed as the amount of business decisions that had to be made daily. I determined quickly that I was not a business man and surrounded myself with Godly men and women who advised in areas of business and I decipled them in Christian Living. This was a great help and allowed me to be about the Father’s Business. Prayer, study of the word and taking care of God’s people is our business as pastors. Believe me it is alot easier than worrying about a finacial report at the end of the quarter.
I recommend the Willow Creek Leader Creek Summit.
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