Which is it? Church OR Business?
- Posted on July 18, 2005
- Viewed 730 times
- (56) comments
The press release was for Willow Creek's upcoming Leadership Summit (which I'll be attending by the way at their South Barrington Campus). Here's part of the press release:
More than 50,000 leaders and emerging leaders across North America are expected to attend The Leadership Summit 2005, an annual gathering of church and business leaders, Thursday, Aug. 11 to Saturday, Aug. 13. The Leadership Summit, now in its tenth year, will originate from Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Ill., and will be beamed live via satellite to 110 locations throughout the U.S. and Canada, providing inspiration and motivation for those with leadership -- or potential leadership -- abilities or responsibilities.
Sir John Templeton, regarded by Wall Street as one of the world's wisest investors, concluded in his extensive research that "the common denominator connecting successful people and successful enterprises is a devotion to ethical and spiritual principles."
In the midst of today's climate of corporate mistrust and people's seeking authentic connection, The Leadership Summit is perfectly suited for leaders wanting to build a culture of integrity, character, and effectiveness.
When the Summit began 10 years ago, it was attended almost exclusively by church leaders. As its transferable principles spread outside the walls of the church, companies began sending teams to the Summit and many continue to use it as one of their core annual training events.
So... which is it? Are business principles invading the church, or are biblical principles spreading outside of the church?
For those of you who feel that the church has taken on too many business principles, could you please list your top three examples? I think it would make for a good discussion. 
Just keep it kind.
Todd
One of the common complaints that get expressed in the comments section here at the MMIBlog.com website is people that say that the church is run too much like a business… that church’s now take as much guidance from the business world as they do the Bible. In some cases, I can see the point… but I found an interesting press release at usnewswire.com that put the spin the other way: Business leaders are starting to apply the teachings of the church and religion in their business practices…
Comments
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Al on Mon, July 18, 2005
Todd,
I apologize if my first response seemed like a rant or one-sided opinion. My attempt, however romantic, was to call our attention to those who have gone before us, who managed to increase the church in spite of the lack of all we have. One might wonder, with all the gifts, talents, ministries, programs, knowledge and freedoms we possess as a church that we are not as spiritually successful in percentage to how the early church was?
Hey, I am not pooh, poohing the conference, I hope it helps a lot of ministers to increase. I just have a feeling that the end of all this business training the only place it will lead us to is our own version of “Enron.”
pdl on Mon, July 18, 2005
Todd,
Did you ever listen to or read the sermon “Ten Shekels and a Shirt” (I suggested pastors on this blog to do so when “humanism/pragmatism” was an issue weeks ago)
Read it here:
http://www.firesofrevival.com/shekels1.htm
Hear it here:
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=282
You don’t see to see how “humanism” can morph from its dictionary definition into the real life of the church at the expense of Biblical truth and the leading of the Holy Spirit…
pdl
Ricky on Mon, July 18, 2005
Al:
“I just have a feeling that the end of all this business training the only place it will lead us to is our own version of ‘Enron.’”
“The Church of Enron”
Has a nice, relative, “down to business” sound to it, doesn’t it?
Todd Rhoades on Mon, July 18, 2005
pdl,
Yes, I have listened to it; and sure… I think it can happen; I would call that liberalism (now that’s a word that has a whole different meaning to every person) http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
But seriously; yes, it can happen… but I’m not on a spiritual witch hunt against humanism. If a church or pastor preaches Christ crucified, risen and coming again; and that His blood paid the sacrifice for my sins, then count me in with them. That’s my standard.
Todd
Todd Rhoades on Mon, July 18, 2005
Haven’t we already had our Enrons? The PTL scandal; Jimmy Swaggart and his prostituional escapades; and some think soon the TBN situation (and yes, Ricky, I don’t forget John Hagee).
This type of leader scares me much more than a Rick Warren or a Bill Hybels. But that gets back to a lost sense (or no sense) of accountability. (And that’s not what this post is about). http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Todd
Kevin on Mon, July 18, 2005
Todd, I do think it is interesting that people send their leaders to the conference. I wonder if they go willingly or because the boss says so. Hopefully they will come out of it with more than just some good business methods. I also think that perhaps people should actually go to the conference before saying they know what its all about. Maybe it is humanistic after all, but I don’t think you can say that until you are there or atleast listen to the audio messages or something. Thanks, Todd, for this post and for putting stuff like this on here, knowing that you’ll probably get some negative responders.
pdl on Mon, July 18, 2005
Todd,
Colossians 2:8 actually tells us that we SHOULD go on a “spiritual witch hunt” against humanism…read it, what do you think?
pdl
Todd Rhoades on Mon, July 18, 2005
pdl,
Our versions of “hollow and deceptive philosophy” are different. What you see as “hollow and deceptive philosophy” I do not.
It’s a difference of philosphy; and a difference in beliefs; and I really don’t see that anyone here will change their mind.
Meanwhile, we spin round and round in circles getting nowhere; when there are more important fish to fry.
Why can’t we leave it at this… make sure you’re doing exactly what you think God has called you to do; and leave the willows and fellowships and others to do what they feel God has called them to do (and they DO think that God has called them to do something). Believe it or not; there are some deeply committed Christians involved in these churches that are just as deliberate and ademate at winning souls for Christ as you and others who constantly run the ‘humanism’ flag up the flagpole.
Again, just my own 2cents.
Todd
pdl on Mon, July 18, 2005
Todd,
“...hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.” is not my “version”...Scripture is plain on these issues: If one’s guiding philosophy of ministy does not depend on Christ, but leans upon business principles (in this case) it is an example of the church being “taken captive”. I am not spinning around in circles. The church is drifting farther out into the sea of pragmatism driven by the ever changing winds of fad…rather than staying the course of God’s Word. Staying true to the Word of God in how we relate to our culture is a pretty big fish to fry in my opinion.
pdl
Todd Rhoades on Mon, July 18, 2005
Exactly pdl… I can’t even use the right scripture version for you (I quoted the NIV).
I’m glad I didn’t use The Message:
Watch out for people who try to dazzle you with big words and intellectual double-talk. They want to drag you off into endless arguments that never amount to anything. They spread their ideas through the empty traditions of human beings and the empty superstitions of spirit beings. But that’s not the way of Christ.
Actually I kind of like that one.
Todd
pdl on Mon, July 18, 2005
Todd,
huh?...actually I was also quoting the NIV behind you ie. finishing your incomplete quote…if by quoting The Message you were trying to jab at me in some way…well, that is between you and the Lord. Anyway…I stand by my comments in my previous post.
pdl
pdl on Mon, July 18, 2005
Todd,
oh…I see, by “version” I was refering to YOUR comment on our respective versions on what “hollow and deceptive philosophy” means… I was not refering to Blible versions…I think you misunderstood?
pdl
Todd Rhoades on Mon, July 18, 2005
Yes… I did misunderstand. I thought you meant you didn’t agree with the version of Scripture I was using (the NIV). Sorry, it’s late. No potshot meant… and yes, we differ on what we think “hollow and deceptive philosophy” is. If the goal was not to lead people to Christ; and the gospel they preached was Christless, I think we would agree.
Time for bed,
Todd
Anthony D. Coppedge on Tue, July 19, 2005
Todd, et. al:
If I may make a strong suggestion, I would recommend that a rule be made that topics should be answered as on-topic as possible. Furthermore, because there’s just a core difference in our viewpoints, I think it best if people like pdl, behim and ricky find other blogs to post to if they can’t come in and add TO a discussion rather than foisting their discussion upon us readers.
I thoroughly enjoy Monday Morning Insight, but find reading through one-dimensional rants from well-intentioned people who are only going to bring strife, not value, to these discussions.
To pdl, behim and ricky: God bless you in your efforts to raise the flag on an issue you see as hyper-important. May God use you in your spheres of influence to reach people for Jesus! But, please, consider spending your energy working towards what God has called you to do and not spend it against what we (also believing we hear God’s call, too) are trying to do/learn.
I enjoy thought-provoking dialogue as much (probably more since I enjoy spirited debate) as the next person, but these three individuals, in particular, inevitably spiral the discussion out of context and out of control nearly (if not) every time.
We would all win if we agreed to disagree and go our separate ways. I say that in love and kindness, not out of a hard heart.
Todd, if as a guest this post is takes too many liberties, please feel free to remove it.
pdl on Tue, July 19, 2005
Anthony,
Here was the question on this topic:
So… which is it? Are business principles invading the church, or are biblical principles spreading outside of the church?
I answered the question on point. Sorry that you did not like my answer, but please don’t presume to lable the convictions of others as a rant. I was engaging Todd, the leader of this blog, directly and respectfully on the question he asked and in answer to his responses. BTW, I agreed with your initial comment on this subject regarding the day to day administrative business of a church. You showed insight with a caution not to judge the motives of those who would go to such a conference.
pdl
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