Which is it? Church OR Business?
- Posted on July 18, 2005
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The press release was for Willow Creek's upcoming Leadership Summit (which I'll be attending by the way at their South Barrington Campus). Here's part of the press release:
More than 50,000 leaders and emerging leaders across North America are expected to attend The Leadership Summit 2005, an annual gathering of church and business leaders, Thursday, Aug. 11 to Saturday, Aug. 13. The Leadership Summit, now in its tenth year, will originate from Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Ill., and will be beamed live via satellite to 110 locations throughout the U.S. and Canada, providing inspiration and motivation for those with leadership -- or potential leadership -- abilities or responsibilities.
Sir John Templeton, regarded by Wall Street as one of the world's wisest investors, concluded in his extensive research that "the common denominator connecting successful people and successful enterprises is a devotion to ethical and spiritual principles."
In the midst of today's climate of corporate mistrust and people's seeking authentic connection, The Leadership Summit is perfectly suited for leaders wanting to build a culture of integrity, character, and effectiveness.
When the Summit began 10 years ago, it was attended almost exclusively by church leaders. As its transferable principles spread outside the walls of the church, companies began sending teams to the Summit and many continue to use it as one of their core annual training events.
So... which is it? Are business principles invading the church, or are biblical principles spreading outside of the church?
For those of you who feel that the church has taken on too many business principles, could you please list your top three examples? I think it would make for a good discussion. 
Just keep it kind.
Todd
One of the common complaints that get expressed in the comments section here at the MMIBlog.com website is people that say that the church is run too much like a business… that church’s now take as much guidance from the business world as they do the Bible. In some cases, I can see the point… but I found an interesting press release at usnewswire.com that put the spin the other way: Business leaders are starting to apply the teachings of the church and religion in their business practices…
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Rick on Tue, July 19, 2005
Whassup all-
This is a very good question and it seems that I have not read one person reply say - I have attended this so let me be the first- I attended last year and will be attending on Aug 11th-13th. First let me say that every day of the summit—prior to every session- the Summit opens with Contemporary Worship- Imagine 50,000 people throughout our nation worshipping together- that in itself was awesome and to know that a great deal of secular businesses are coming onboard makes it even a greater ordeal to see non-believers hear about the God we serve. The speakers last year were great speakers. Some of them do come from business points of interest but there is a ton to be learned from this. The majority of them come from business points of view and show how they have associated the Word of God to make there businesses prosper. There was no one selling anything so to say that any secular business is just doing it to reap christian business would not be true. If we can get businesses to treat people with Godly principles- our nation has to become stronger and closer in Unity. Be Blessed and don’t always knock something just from an Article you read in the paper-
Rick Courtney
Bruce on Tue, July 19, 2005
I’ve never posted here before but I try to read often. Not being a “church staff” person myself, although I’m exploring some possibilites, I’ve never felt like I should contribute to the discussions. And most of the time the comments stike me as dogs chasing their tails, never going anywhere but in circles. But the idea of the church taking on business principles, and business taking on Christian principles, is so needed today.
I’ve got a good friend who, when he went to college to eventually go into ministry, was told by his banker father to get a business degree because so many pastors and staff members are clueless about how to run a church. They go to a Bible college or private Christian university, major in religion, or history, or English, or philoshophy, or whatever, and then maybe go to seminary where they take more Bible, and religion and preaching. When I was in seminary, business practices were never even an optional class. And whether you are in a small church or a very large church, you still have budgets, and income and expense, and buildings (whether you are renting a theater or your church is a multi-building complex), and human resource issues, and supplies you need to do your “work,” and on and on. You get my point.
I agree with Anthony about project logs and basic project management. I’ve seen so many church staff people waste the resources that God has given them stewardship over, and the people in their congregations entrusted with them.
Didn’t mean to intrude on the conversation. I’m just tired of people saying the church today shouldn’t be run like a business. Like it or not, it is. And if the pastors and other staff people don’t know how to do it, or want to spend their time on more spiritual matters like when the apostles had to appoint men to handle the daily routine stuff, then trust those business people in your congregations who do.
Bruce
Gerry on Tue, July 19, 2005
11 years ago, when I was headed for divorce and had left a Bible College teaching position as a result, I found Willow Creek. There I found a safe, grace-filled place in which to heal and be restored. Business model? Perhaps. Humanistic? Absolutely not!!! God has used that place and its pastors to touch the lives of thousands of people. Therefore, I find some of the debate on this thread to be short-sighted, ill-informed, sad and regrettable.
janelle on Tue, July 19, 2005
I just completed reading most of this blog for the first time, hoping to learn from the original question posed: what are top three examples too many business principles in the church today? Can anyone respond to that question specifically? As a staff member of a growing and vibrant church that was in a state of chaos two years ago, primarily because growth had outpaced sound organization, I have been a vocal proponent of Godly excellence in organization, communication and leadership practice for many good reasons, among which are - 1. We are dependent on volunteers for the work of the church ( from evangelism to discipleship to ministry to worship)- though motivation first comes from the heart of a believer who desires to serve, poor organization can and does discourage people from volunteering at church; time is too precious to be wasted 2. in the 21st century, our lives are impacted by technology and dictated by a pace that requires the church to think about how it communicates to its members/congregation; people are looking for guidance in their Christian walk, the church provides that by being relevant and up to date in its practice and presentation; 3.churches are an organization; living, breathing, changing, driven by the Holy Spirit but run by people; effective organization helps working staff to align purposes and communicate timely information which ultimately impacts the lives of members, among other reasons.
Having said all that, I have been criticized for ‘too much business’ thinking in our church. When I probe for what those examples are, most people can’t really say, they just feel like it’s ‘too business like’. I think it’s just change. People have a hard time with change and when it involves faith in an unchangeable God , it’s even more difficult.
Anybody out there have examples? Thanks
bernie dehler on Tue, July 19, 2005
RE: “So… which is it? Are business principles invading the church, or are biblical principles spreading outside of the church?”
The answer is yes. We influence each other. We are to be salt and light to the world (which includes business). In addition, our Lord Jesus used priciples of the world to illustrate spiritual truths, such as Luke 14:28 (business analysis before building a tower).
I agree that it’s good to be on the constant look-out for ‘humanistic’ influeneces creeping into the church. It is anti-spiritual, as they reject anything spiritual as “unproven,” and thus, inapplicable to daily life. We, however, depend on faith, prayer, miracles, the power of God, etc. Our motivation is not “maximizinbg profit” as MBA’s are taught, but glorifying Christ.
...Bernie
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/247/
bernie dehler on Tue, July 19, 2005
Al says:
“The best model for “Business Principles” in a church is the Mormon Church!”
Why would you say that… just because they have lots of money? You’re church could do it also if you got into the “religion” business, such as demand a 10% tithe (if they don’t do it, don’t allow them to the most intricate parts of fellowship, as is Temple service/works for the LDS). The problem, of course, is that none of it is God’s will.
...Bernie
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/247/
Jeremy Harrison on Tue, July 19, 2005
With questions like: “So… which is it? Are business principles invading the church, or are biblical principles spreading outside of the church?” We are suggesting the following equation:
church = biblical, good
business = non-biblical, evil
This is understandable with scandals like Enron, WorldCom, Tyco, etc. However, God’s word has a lot to say about business principles, even though these biblical business principles are ignored by most businesses today. True biblical business principles would not be an “invasion” on the church.
Furthermore, I don’t believe that the church was immune to following basic business principles. The church regularly teaches on good stewardship, and the church is expected to be a good steward as well. The only way to do this is to handle its resources in a business-like fashion. In return, the church will be left with more resources for ministry.
I’ve seen many churches struggle because they get stuck in a philosophy that says “we don’t need to worry about these business matters in our church. If we have faith, God will provide for our needs.”
Well yes, He will provide, but He wants us to use what we’re given responsibly. He won’t just keep giving us resources if we keep squandering them away. The parable of the talents should speak to the church as much as it does to individual Christians.
rick on Tue, July 19, 2005
This is all so PAINFULLY simple from my standpoint of reading the scriptures. I think we have incredible freedom to do whatever it takes to preach the gospel and carry out the Matthew 28 mission.
The only parameters we have are these: Opreationally, the church should work like the body—this is the dominant metaphor used in the scriptures for how the church operates—and Jesus is the head, not the modern “Senior Pastor”.
Relationally, the church is a family—not a business, not a club and not a political organization. Once again—there is only ONE dominant metaphor for how the church relates to itself—family. This is where we get so messed up, I believe. If we’d act more like a family—even a disfunctional one would be better than what we have now—I believe we’d have more impact on our world. As it is…the “machine” becomes a distraction to authentic and vital relationships.
Plus…just my opinion, but nobody “fired” anybody in the early church. They confronted and if need be…they found a way to go separate ways where the Kingdom won—not one of the disputing parties (see Paul/Barnabas, Philemon/Onesimus).
I bristle every year I hear Hybels talk about having “courage” to fire people. You don’t fire your family…you find a way to live together or serve seperately in a way that’s acromonious and kingdom-focused.
Homer on Tue, July 19, 2005
As I read the original posting and question I formed a response on how the business drive to maximize profits had invaded the church. However as I began to write my posting I had a change of thought. Maybe (and I mean maybe) the church has failed to learn from the business world.
I cannot imagine a business that wishes to continue to say to new and potential customers that in order for them to receive the attention of the workers that they needed to make a change. They needed to learn an archaic language, dress in set and often peculiar clothing, keep quiet and not express ideas until they had shopped at the store for some given number of generations. I cannot imagine a business saying to a client that when they have been around here long enough you will understand how things are done.
This was brought home to me when I had the opportunity to hear Leonard Sweet talk about Starbucks and how they make it easy for the uninitiated to learn their language. They publish a handbook on ordering the product. They give out a language guide. After hearing this I asked my child who works for Starbucks if this was correct. She went and produced her guide to the products they served.
However when I go to church and ask how do we do things it is often impossible to obtain an answer to the question. When I have been there long enough then I will no longer care how things get done.
When I worked for a major retailer the understanding was simply every person who came into the store was the reason we existed, but in the church we exist to take care of people who are supposed to be helping carrying the load. In business we were kind to people because they were important, but in the church we break people into categories on how much they give, do they belong to the most correct family, or if they do not get their way they will leave and say bad things about us. In business they were people, but in the church they were giving units.
Maybe I missed the point of the question so I will recommend an old article found in the Leadership Journal 1992 Fall quarter pages 86-91entitled Moving in the Right Circles: Is the church a cause, a community or a corporation? Yes.
Peace
David Riley on Tue, July 19, 2005
Hello, all:
I’m a Realtor, and I used to be on staff as a Music Director at a church (hence, why I know of this site).
Being in the business world AND a Christian I see both sides. Doesn’t the scripture speak about staying away from anything that even “appears” evil? Is money evil? No; but the love of it is. This is now a question of the heart.
I find it funny to read the differences of opinion - especially among those that “serve” as Pastors on this type of topic. The general public views Pastors as money hungry, self-absorbed, and hypocrites. And, in some cases, I would agree. Pastors that have usually been targeted by these labels will readily refer to the scriptures that speak about Pastors equipping the saints to do the work of the ministry.
So, I have been burned - more than several times - by “Pastors” that are more centered on the Word than they are about the music part of the service. I, frankly, couldn’t care less about the Word being preached, as I read my own Bible and really meditate with God via His Spirit. Burned more specifically by trying to please the man of God rather than God Himself, which is my fault - yet expected at the church I was at.
There are a LOT of “theories” about money and how it relates to the church. Most churches that preach about the “love of money” also have stores within the church or are selling tapes of sermons. The only image I ever recall when I see this going on at the local church is Jesus going through His Father’s House of Prayer tipping over tables in the outer courts of the Temple. I think it would serve the ENTIRE church community to focus on money, but rather God who is always faithful to give us what we need - not what we want - within the local church!
The competition that is among Pastors - whether it be explicit or implicit - is appauling! It’s as though God is judging us on our effectiveness by how many people we have in our congregations… NOT!!! We cannot and SHOULD not be judging ANY part of the Church (it’s ministries or ministers) based upon anything as the world sees things. We are supposed to have been set free FROM this world - not to continually base everything by IT’s standards after we’ve been redeemed!?!
If you, as a human being, wish to enter into any business ventures (so long as they are God-pleasing and not man-pleasing) then I say go for it! But, if you aim to use your church as your marketing arm to sell tapes of your messages, etc. then I think there’s a LOT that’s in question and there’s a LOT of people - including me - that would not financially support a “ministry” like that! Keep the two separate: business and ministry (Church).
When it comes to running your church like a business, I don’t know, I suppose there a few things that we could learn from the world about doing things better. But we run the risk of a seriously slippery slope when we start down that road; where/when do you say no or stop?
The world should be coming to us for answers, not the other way around. For those of us that are Christian businessmen/women keep church services as far away from you business as possible! Pastors, and other ministry leaders, keep your focus on God and let Him provide “all your needs according to His riches in Glory!” Everyone sing with me: “Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you. Amen!”
The world’s paradigm for success is that what man sees; God’s paradigm for success is that which only He can see; this is why we are to pray in our prayer closet, etc. If you are really men of faith, you don’t need more money! If you need more money, then you’re in the wrong “business” if you aim to get it from the Church. How does this separate you from the Benny Hinn’s, the Robert Tilton’s, the Jimmy Swaggart’s, and/or the Jimmy Bakker’s? The world DESPISES these characters because of their hypocricy! Jesus was NOT a televangelist, and He wouldn’t be now if he were to have lived in this generation. He would be a traveling evangelist with a following, sure, but not the way most (if not all) others are going about it.
It is disgusting to see preachers and pastors modeling their churches after the world when we have a MUCH greater example: Jesus, and His ministry, who is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
For those who think I am being condescending or judgmental, maybe it isn’t me… maybe its the Spirit convicting you. The Church isn’t effective NOT because it doesn’t have a worldly principle to follow, but because it isn’t following its true leader: Jesus! And I am just as guilty as the rest of us!!!
After having seen MORE than several churches split up over STUPID things, there’s no wonder the rest of the world isn’t wanting to follow us. We’ve truly forgotten about the Beatitude regarding meekness. I know it isn’t a popular doctrine, nevertheless it’s one we should re-adopt!
There’s NO amount of money, treasure, wealth, or riches that could “lure” me into the ministry today. There are too many that are genuinely hurting, and the local churches are more concerned with their building programs than the widow, the orphan, etc. (which is TRUE religion I believe is how the Bible puts it), which is where I am putting my offering(s). When the churches start doing their job(s) then I’ll start contributing back to the local church. However, being that they’re not doing their job my wife and I shall continue to give to those that actually have need! The church needs to earning back the respect of those around us before we need another building program! And Jesus said, “Come into my home because of your lavish building program(s) at your local church! Well done thy good and faithful servant!” (I don’t think so!)
And before all of you Pastors out there talk about how I’m now not “tithing” in the local church, maybe you should first read the article at:
http://www.bible-truths.com - I am in NO way affiliated with the gentleman that owns and runs this site!
-David Riley, Shelby Township, Michigan
rick on Tue, July 19, 2005
David…really appreciate your thoughts/heart…but man…that web link is not your friend. There are many good articles on tithing not being a new testament practice (with valid argumetns)...but some of the other crazy stuff that the web site’s author says is just going to discredit your argument. Linking yourself with him is probably not a good move. Just my .2
Ricky on Wed, July 20, 2005
Rick:
“I bristle every year I hear Hybels talk about having “courage” to fire people. You don’t fire your family…you find a way to live together or serve seperately in a way that’s acromonious and kingdom-focused.”
Excellent point, Rick!
The problem is that because most pastors have a CEO mentality, particularly those who reign over large organizations where they have long lost touch with real people, there is no familial relationship, resulting in the coldness of the business.
Franklin Reeves on Wed, July 20, 2005
I have a degree in Business Management.
I have managed/led people in the military and buisness world.
The same problems in the buisness world that lead to ethical failure also posses a problem for church leaders.
When an organization decides one measurment is more important than others, by where they focus (rant, rave, discipline, reward) then the employees focus on that measurement and others are ignored.
The things that are easily measured and those the customers complain about are addressed quickly and lead to change. Even if it is clearly seen that it is not in the best interest of the customer or organization. (not always the case)
I have no problem with churches balancing thier budgets. I see no evil in business men turning to biblical principles. I think more christians would do beter today if they wold read Proverbs and apply their wisdom to thier lives.
I do have a problem when it seems that the major factor of focus with pastors is church growth. (I am not refering to focusing on seeking and saving the lost, but to seeking and saving attednance/tithes)
I can not touch on any specific business practice that is unbliblical that is being imported, other than pragamatism.
I would remind pastors that trusting in these models seem to be no different than Isreal trusting in chariots.
Pastors, does your congregation feel that they are just numbers to you?
Pastors, would you be willing to serve the Lord if you saw no visible result to put on your resume?
Pastors could you be content decrying the evils of this world and risk being stoned, laughed at, mocked, or have a major reduction in congregation?
Pastors if your memebers where sharing the gospel on a continous basis and those that where saved went to other churches, would you be happy or try to come up with a plan to redirect the new christians to your church?
I have no bone with Willow Creek, Rick Warren, or any other pastor. I just think it is important that we sometimes ask ourselves these questions.
Rev. Kev on Wed, July 20, 2005
I guess I could get all religious but I won’t. Religion is taking care of widows and orphans in their distress and keeping yourself from being polluted by the world (James 1:27).
I think we have forgotten everything we do inside and outside of the building is about people. We as ministers can have the greatest visions and ideas, but when it hurts God’s children instead of help them, I think it has the writtings of man’s idea.
We burn people out, use God’s money inappropriately, and say it is part of the vision. If they don’t like it they can leave is usually a good standard anymore.
This standard is what buisness has practiced and what church is practicing.
Use everything up and ask God to fill it back up.
If pastors would do their job, which is tending to the word, prayer, and being a true shepherd, we would not have some of the problems which has manifested in today’s church pews or theater seating.
Quit trying to make money.
Quit using and abusing God’s people.
Quit trying become a great CEO.
Put your efforts into becoming a great pastor and shepherd.
Anthony D. Coppedge on Wed, July 20, 2005
QUOTE:
“I bristle every year I hear Hybels talk about having “courage” to fire people. You don’t fire your family…you find a way to live together or serve seperately in a way that’s acromonious and kingdom-focused.”
That sounds great. Practically, how would you (realisitically) handle the following situation:
The Children’s minister, a staff member, isn’t good at delegation. Both staff and lay volunteers are frustrated because of the “control freak” mentality of the Children’s minister. Everyone likes the Children’s minister as a person, but the lack of leadership and awkward management makes for a difficult environment.
On several occassions, over the course of several months, the Pastor has had talks with the Children’s minister on how to delegate, offered free leadership and management development books and documented areas where the person needed to improve. Unfortunately, the Children’s minister is incapable of being a solid leader and, even through repeated attemps, just isn’t good with the volunteers in delegation or communications. In short, this person just isn’t able to handle the responsibilities of the job.
The Pastor has even offered to hire a new direct supervisor and reduce the pay of the Children’s Minister so that they can work under someone with more experience. The Pastor hopes that the Children’s minister would view this opportunity as a chance to be mentored and improve their skills.
The Children’s minister refuses the offer, citing the decrease in pay as being unacceptable.
Here we have a person, while possibly sweet and well-intentioned, who isn’t capable of peforming in the role. Staff and volunteers alike feel this person is harmful in their management role. What should the Pastor do? Let this person continue to harm the overall ministry? Force them to move to another area (and thereby force them, in essence to find another job that meets their salary requirements)? Ask them to move on (not firing them, so it’s only a request, not a demand)? Stop paying them so they get the message (not fired, but not paid either)?
You don’t really have to answer this: the point is simple - some people, no matter how much you love on them and pray for them, will not be able (or want to) step up to the role of responsibility that is required. If after reasonable attempts to help this person there is no change to resolve the issue, the person must be fired from their position.
Now, HOW this person is fired matters quite a bit. I have a friend in Nashville that was at a church for about 7 months, but who was wanting to do more than the church wanted to do, even though it is documnted that my friend was hired to do those very things. The church realized that they’d made a mistake in assuming they were ready to use someone of his talents and offered him a 4 month severance package to help him as he went to find a new job.
In one of my own circumstances, I had to sit down with a Pastor and show documentation of missed expectations I had for the ministry. They agreed, realizing that it was best that they find someone who would work at a lower level than I was hired to perform. I offered to help find my own replacement and continue working for up to 90 days as I also looked for a new position. On the Sunday that I left, my Pastor had my wife and I sit in the service. At the end, he had us stand up and told the church that we were following God’s will for us back in Texas, and I quote, “in all my years of ministry, I’ve never had a staff member leave more sweetly or helpfully than Anthony. I wanted us to send him out to accomplish his ministry with our heartfelt thanks.” He did this in all three services.
Firing isn’t fun, but it IS sometimes necessary. In other situations, such as mine, open communication, both parties can have the maturity to come to a concensus and agree to separate. But when that doesn’t happen, there’s nothing wrong with “shaking the dust off of your sandals and walking away” (paraphrased), as long as you made every attempt to try and work with the person prior to making the decision to fire them.
To view it super-spiritually is nice, but not practical. People will not always make the right decision or handle themselves well. In those unfortunate situations, you need to accept that firing is appropriate.
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