Which is it? Church OR Business?
- Posted on July 18, 2005
- Viewed 732 times
- (56) comments
The press release was for Willow Creek's upcoming Leadership Summit (which I'll be attending by the way at their South Barrington Campus). Here's part of the press release:
More than 50,000 leaders and emerging leaders across North America are expected to attend The Leadership Summit 2005, an annual gathering of church and business leaders, Thursday, Aug. 11 to Saturday, Aug. 13. The Leadership Summit, now in its tenth year, will originate from Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Ill., and will be beamed live via satellite to 110 locations throughout the U.S. and Canada, providing inspiration and motivation for those with leadership -- or potential leadership -- abilities or responsibilities.
Sir John Templeton, regarded by Wall Street as one of the world's wisest investors, concluded in his extensive research that "the common denominator connecting successful people and successful enterprises is a devotion to ethical and spiritual principles."
In the midst of today's climate of corporate mistrust and people's seeking authentic connection, The Leadership Summit is perfectly suited for leaders wanting to build a culture of integrity, character, and effectiveness.
When the Summit began 10 years ago, it was attended almost exclusively by church leaders. As its transferable principles spread outside the walls of the church, companies began sending teams to the Summit and many continue to use it as one of their core annual training events.
So... which is it? Are business principles invading the church, or are biblical principles spreading outside of the church?
For those of you who feel that the church has taken on too many business principles, could you please list your top three examples? I think it would make for a good discussion. 
Just keep it kind.
Todd
One of the common complaints that get expressed in the comments section here at the MMIBlog.com website is people that say that the church is run too much like a business… that church’s now take as much guidance from the business world as they do the Bible. In some cases, I can see the point… but I found an interesting press release at usnewswire.com that put the spin the other way: Business leaders are starting to apply the teachings of the church and religion in their business practices…
Comments
if you want a Globally Recognized Avatar (the images next to your profile) get them here. Once you sign up, your picture will displayed on any website that supports gravitars.
rick on Wed, July 20, 2005
Anthony…I understand your scenario, but your scenario is the minority.
“The Children’s minister refuses the offer, citing the decrease in pay as being unacceptable.”
That statement right there tells me that there is no dialogue on her part (I assume). At this point, it’s become a spiritual issue because of her refusal to take a pay cut (ie love of money). Perhaps pride, arrogance or whatever is involved as well. This simply is not like most scenarios I’m aware of.
Your story about the 7 month situation is really good—and I’m serious about that. It sounds like that was a Paul/Barnabas like agreement. I applaud everyone on that front. However…
“To view it super-spiritually is nice, but not practical.”
Statements like these are just unhelpful. There’s nothing “super spiritual” about being familial first. It’s dimply spiritual…nothing “super” about it. Placing qualifiers like “super” on the front end of thngs are a subtle way of trying to discredit the word it qualifies. That may not have been your intention, but that’s what we do in our society (ie far-left, far-right, radical left, radical right).
Think about this, Anthony…many Pastors are going to be called into account for things they’ve done for “practicality” sake. God is not always practical…that’s why the Gospel and His church is sometimes messy and not easy for leaders. Relationships should never be slaughtered on the alter of practicality.
I hate to say this, but this takes me back to my theory about today’s leaders. I hear a lot of talk about courage and diligent leadership—but I see alot of laziness. It’s easy to fire/hire—it’s hard to find solutions, relationally. It’s tough…it’s messy and it calls into question whether we’ve led well—forces us to point the questions back at ourselves, which is a healthy thing.
Today’s pastors seem to default to business/technological/practical solutions rather than the relational one. Once again…I think that’s sad. It wasn’t practical for Jesus to have Judas as one of his disciples…or any of those guys for that matter…but it served the will of God.
rick on Wed, July 20, 2005
I am soooo sorry to post again…but Anthony. A pastor friend of mine has a GREAT policy where confrontation over job performance is concerned. Before he has any “conversation”, he asks if the person has felt loved and valued by him. If not…the conversation is put on hold and he apologizes and tries to relationally connect with that person again.
Sometimes confrontation is a good place to find out whether the real problem involves our lack of relational involvement with people. I think the “lovecat way” that Tim Sanders speaks so well of is a good starting point for those interested in this way of leading people.
bernie dehler on Wed, July 20, 2005
Anthony asks:
“You don’t really have to answer this: the point is simple - some people, no matter how much you love on them and pray for them, will not be able (or want to) step up to the role of responsibility that is required.”
As Rick said, the church should be a family. Your wife also has roles and responsibilities. What would you do with her if she couldn’t do them? Divorce her? You’d be as creative as you can, yet accept them for what they can do, I hope.
I think as a “manager” you shouldn’t have put a person in a position until they were ready for it, which implies you know them pretty well, which implies promotion from within.
If you think of the relationship as more intimate, as a marriage, then you’ll make a more thorough attempt of determining a person for the job (and pray alot about it). You wouldn’t marry a women you’ve only met a few times, or for a few weeks (Rick’s point). However, if they are just a hireling/worker, then yes, be brutal like the world, and toss them out. Don’t worry about it, and hire someone else to push around until they satisfy you (or toss them too).
...Bernie
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/247/
BeHim on Wed, July 20, 2005
For those of you who feel that the church has taken on too many business principles, could you please list your top three examples?
1. Marketing: We’re not in sales. Q: If you present the Gospel to someone and they don’t accept it, do you believe in considering another way you could have presented it or saying it would have made a difference?
2. Hierarchical structure: Boss, Managers, Staff, blue collar. The Biblical view is Believers to deacons (as called) to Elders (as called) to pastor (as called). The pastor is an elder with a “title” so people know who “the leader” is. Today we “hire” instead of train/disciple.
3. Fix these two and much of the others go away.
To Anthony D. Coppedge
[If I may make a strong suggestion, I would recommend that a rule be made that topics should be answered as on-topic as possible. Furthermore, because there’s just a core difference in our viewpoints, I think it best if people like pdl, behim and ricky find other blogs to post to if they can’t come in and add TO a discussion rather than foisting their discussion upon us readers.]
Anthony, why do you attack me personally? Am I not allowed to present my statement (it IS “on-topic” just not answering the questions - at this point)? I understand we have “a core difference” in our beliefs but please don’t attack me personally, this is how “rants” begin.
[We would all win if we agreed to disagree and go our separate ways. I say that in love and kindness, not out of a hard heart.]
Should we disagree about The Gospel? Can there be two or more gospels (for us as “believers”)?
Anthony D. Coppedge on Wed, July 20, 2005
BeHim, my statement wasn’t an attack. I apologize if you took it that way. My piont is that instead of us going round-and-round with very different viewpoints that will never agree, why continue the spiral? It’s not my blog, and I was only making a suggestion so that the intent of the dialogue is kept around the core topic and not changed to humanism at every chance.
I love you in Christ, BeHim, and I think we can each reach people for Jesus in our own spheres of influence. My recommendation was to create a situation that let’s us work through the topics without the spiral into the humanistic viewpiont time after time. We’re not going to agree on that, no matter how eloquent our arguments, so let’s stop wasting blog space and time trying to prove a point and just stick with the original intent of the post.
My 2 cents,
BeHim on Wed, July 20, 2005
If your intent is to keep the topic from “spiraling” then why make the suggestion for me/us to “find other blogs to post to if they can’t come in and add TO a discussion”.
This added to the discussion, maybe not a discussion you would want to be involved in but hey, I don’t think your “scenario” is any more off topic than my statement was and I definately would in no way suggest you should find another blog to post on.
I love you in Christ too Anthony. So please keep your personal comments to yourself about who should post here and who should not and why. k? http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/grin.gif
Todd Rhoades on Wed, July 20, 2005
Enough.
As the blog owner, I believe I have some say about where we go from here…
We’ve been here before and this is it. Anthony has suggested no more (or anything different) than I have here before.
Here’s the bottom line… If you think that we preach a different gospel here (as you’ve said on numerous occasions), BeHim, than it would be best (as I also have suggested before) that we call it a day and move on. There’s really no point in continuing on with all the back and forth… it’s getting to be a waste of time.
Here are a couple of resources for you:
1. Free Blogger accounts: these are free from google and get you essentially the same thing as what we’re doing here. Post your blog with topics you think the church needs to hear about. I’ve told you that I’ll point people your way (and even post on your blog). That’s a win/win really. We can discuss the topics we want to here; and you can make an impact by controlling the discussions and facilitating change with your own blog. Sounds like a great idea (if I say so myself). http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
2. There are other blogs at which you can discuss your view of the church as pragmatic, humanistic, and businesslike. Just do a search at technorati.com for any of these topics and you’ll find other communities that will probably fit your idea of the gospel better.
Here’s the other option: if you truly believe we’re brothers and both in the kingdom of God; then let’s discuss with a clean slate. At this point, I’m just not sure that this is possible, because the way you word things really tends to incite people. :(
It’s been real, and it’s been fun… but it hasn’t been really fun. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Todd
Daniel on Wed, July 20, 2005
I engage in this only because I think it is critical to the church.
The Church is above all else a spiritual family, not a business. But, just as it is with a family, there is a business side to the church. I too will be attending the Willow Leadership conference as I have for the past several years. As a Pastor I need to take care of business in the church but I want to do it within the context of beinig first and foremost a spiritual family.
rick on Wed, July 20, 2005
Ditto, Daniel. I too enjoy the Summit. It’s a great conference of diverse thoughts on leadership. It’s always funny to see several speakers contradict one another…which forces you to think through what each has said. Hybels should get props for having Bennis, Lencioni and McManus sharing the same stage.
Thomas Neff on Mon, July 25, 2005
I’d like to take the opposite approach. I believe too many churches are run like hobbies vice businesses. In my book, a business is one that espouses these (and possibly other) practices:
- Before we hire someone we search for the BEST candidate (not the best one that we know or that lives in our town).
- Before we hire someone we do a background check on them. I’ve been in a church where this was NOT done and within 2 years a new youth pastor was in jail for inappropriate actions with some of the youth and adults.
- Before we purchase something, we look for the best value. We get at least 3 bids. Of course, we try to build it if we can because of the buy-in value we get from those that help. It also gives our people a sense of belonging (look at the church WE built).
- We strive for excellence in all we do. How many churches settle for “we’ve always done it this way”? The world is not static, neither should be our programs.
- We need documented procedures. How many churches run on “oh everyone knows how to do that!”? Then you get a new person who does NOT know how. They do it differently and get chastized for doing it wrong. If you have documented procedures, it allows you to move efficiently and quickly.
- We need (and follow) a strategic plan. God sees WAAAAAAAY into the future. Surely we can at least try to see several years into it. Sure, we might have to modify the plan but at least we know where we’re going. How many churches have an annual calendar and THAT is their only strategic plan? You need to be watching the newspapers to see what’s going to happen in your community that will impact your ministry. If a 500-home housing division is going to be built immediately next to your church, wouldn’t it behoove you to consider what you would do with the added parishioners? It doesn’t mean you need to start building but you should at least put together a plan that would account for adding more seats in pews.
- We need to reach our future clients (yet-to-be-saved community members). We can’t live with the status quo. God told us to go into the world to spread the Gospel. He didn’t say to wait for them to come to us. What are you doing at the County Fair this year, as a church? How often to you make some sort of presentation (drama, singing, etc) at a local Mall?
I’ve been a member of too many churches where the pastor figured he was the only person who had a direct link with God. Only the pastor knew what was best for everyone. However, he’s only 1 person and can’t do everything so he would contract out all work (didn’t have time to organize a men’s work day), he did all the hiring and firing (oh he might tell the board what he was doing but he didn’t need their approval or advice), ... You know this pastor, you went to that same church at one time.
A pastor that has a vision and is willing to make it a long term vision, complete with intermediary goals and the gumption to sell this vision to the entire congregation is the type of pastor that’s running this church properly (you MUST get Bruce Wilkinson’s “The Vision of the Leader”). People will be on fire. They will know what’s expected of them. They will have buy-in because they are involved. These are solid business practices. They also apply to a church.
Yes, a church is a busines, albeit a special, very important business. Not ALL the business rules apply but most do. I guess it really boils down to your personal definition of “running a church like a business”.
Thoughts?
Tom Neff
Lay leader
LeVaN on Thu, November 02, 2006
http://www.seks-amator-penis.toyt3.com ^^^ http://www.mannlig-purk-ejakulasjonen.toyt3.com ^^^ http://www.inchiodare-fighette-gruppo.str0nz0.com ^^^ http://www.codardo-americano-masturbate.str0nz0.com ^^^ http://www.stota-pattar-porn.pul4.com ^^^ http://www.strimma-bikinins-historia.pul4.com ^^^ http://www.fitta-bbw-genomtrangande.pu1a.com ^^^ http://www.flickor-nakna-vagina.pu1a.com ^^^ http://www.hauskempi-tarjoilijatar-aasi-naida.huor4.com ^^^ http://www.outo-opiskelija-aasi-jotta-kita.huor4.com ^^^ http://www.laatoittaminen.hu0ra.com ^^^ http://www.epatavallinen-nuori-kusi.hu0ra.com ^^^ http://www.amore-ragazze-pompino.fott1.com ^^^ http://www.fair-giovane-figa-fotti.fott1.com ^^^ http://www.buono-cameriera-spogliarello.f0tti.com ^^^ http://www.nonsensical-cameriera-maledica.f0tti.com ^^^ http://www.fittagammalhand-fetis.sexsipillu.com ^^^ http://www.siitin-opiskelija-seksi.sexsipillu.com ^^^ http://www.lesbisk-ruska-flickor.sexknulla.com ^^^ http://www.flickor-kissar-remsa.sexknulla.com ^^^ http://www.deilige-vate-fitter-sex.sexfitte.com ^^^ http://www.kort-tittehull.sexfitte.com ^^^ http://www.ridicolo-lesbiche.sessololiti.com ^^^ http://www.fetish-kata-ftv.sessololiti.com ^^^ http://www.bukkake-viejitas-putas.sesso-loliti.com ^^^ http://www.emotivo-nere.sesso-loliti.com ^^^ http://www.hard-porn-bilder-sex-pupper.toyt3.info ^^^ http://www.dristig-student.toyt3.info ^^^ http://www.corto-ubriache.tettin3.info ^^^ http://www.retiring-nonne-urinate.tettin3.info ^^^ http://www.sconfinato-ma.tett1ne.info ^^^ http://www.amatoriali-scambi-coppie-rilasciare.tett1ne.info ^^^ http://www.lesbica-fotos-raperos.tard0ne.info ^^^ http://www.leccare-figha-lesbe.tard0ne.info ^^^ http://www.adatto-bionde-spogliarello.t3ttine.info ^^^ http://www.culitos-colombianos-perverse.t3ttine.info ^^^ http://www.forskremt-tenaring-puling.t0yt3.info ^^^ http://www.filmer-penest.t0yt3.info ^^^ http://www.gros-nibards-fist-#######.sl3tterig.info ^^^ http://www.cul-sauvage-teens.sl3tterig.info ^^^
Page 4 of 4 pages « First < 2 3 4
Post a Comment