good post.  the big issue at my church is, “Do we give everyone who thinks they can sing/play a chance on Sunday mornings?” or, “Do we protect the quality and use mostly our most talented people?” I seem to be in the minority when I think that quality matters and if that means putting your best foot forward on a Sunday than I say, do it.  Not to say that people can’t be trained, encouraged, and mentored.  But someone who is tone deaf doesn’t need to let us all know that they’re tone deaf on Sunday morning.  Quality, quality, quality.

This is interesting. Last night in our Bible study at church we looked at principles of “corporate worship” from Deuteronomy 12 (we are going through a systematic study of Deut.) We found 8 principles embedded in this chapter in regard to what pleases God in the church worship setting/meeting. I’ll list the first two of them:
1. Worship with First Love...v.v.1-3 command a tearing down of idolatry in our hearts and lives.  We qualify as worshippers only if we come to Him completely purged of love for anything that steals His glory from our lives...This truth should always be our emphasis!
2. Worship with Propriety...v.4 and 29-31 God distinctly reveals that He does not want worship offered to Him in pagan/worldly ways.  Here He says, “be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying,’How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.’ You MUST NOT worship the Lord your God in their way...” This call for propriety is echoed in the N.T. in First Corinthians 11-14. The American gods are materialism and hedonism.  Our culture expresses worship to these gods through rock-n-roll and rap music. I wonder when worship leaders tell us “style does’nt matter” to God.  I actually believe God is offended when we offer worship to Him in worldly ways--rock-n-roll/casual shallow lyrics/man-centered-flesh-pleasing styles that fail to honor the distinction that God seems to want in our expressions and acts of worship to Him.  If we are taking our cues from American Idol where does that leave God in our attempts to worship Him?

pdl writes [Our culture expresses worship to these gods through rock-n-roll and rap music. I wonder when worship leaders tell us “style does’nt matter” to God. I actually believe God is offended when we offer worship to Him in worldly ways--rock-n-roll/casual shallow lyrics/man-centered-flesh-pleasing styles that fail to honor the distinction that God seems to want in our expressions and acts of worship to Him.]

As cultures have emerged over the past few hundred years, the styles of music and art that emerged have very quickly been put to “non-God pleasing” secular use. Lots of classical music has been written to celebrate very anti-christian views. Lots of folk music, jazz, even “gospel” styles have as well. Photography, when it first appeared, was IMMEDIATELY used as an avenue for pornography, the same for film.

David was pretty roundly criticized by his wife (and probably a few others) for dancing like an idiot in worship before the ark of the covenant, and we know how that panned out.

Let’s be slow to judge.

Peter

PDL said: “I actually believe God is offended when we offer worship to Him in worldly ways--rock-n-roll/casual shallow lyrics/man-centered-flesh-pleasing styles...”

There was a time in the not too distant past when Pianos were considered the “Devil’s Work” then they slowly became accepted, then the Organ was used by those liberal folk to lead the people astray, then they were accepted, next came the guitar, and the drums and the keyboard and the… get the point!  When are we going to wake up to the point that it isn’t the sound as much as were our hearts and minds are during worship?

If you go to church because the “band” or “worship team” is good, I really don’t care, if they are lifting up Christ and the message is Christ centered, you know, before long God is going to talk to you about where you put your affection.  I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit knows how to do his job!  I would rather have someone come to church because the music is “good” then stay home and not have their souls fed with the Word of God. What is more important here people? Keeping our “religious format” or reaching people with the Gospel?  Seems like a pretty easy choice for me.

Blessings,
Pastor Al

pdl says [What if we started with the question: “What pleases God in worship?” Would rock-n-roll emerge as the preferred style from that question.]

Well, why not? It’s a great way to worship God with your whole heart soul mind and strength in my opinion. It’s a very authentic way to worship, imho…

Right On! Authenticity, character, and quality allows for all to worship in spirit and truth.

While we are on music let me just say I am loving Matt Redman’s “Blessed Be Your Name” What a great song.  Get it if you haven’t already.

Sorry Todd I couldn’t help it!  It is such a great song!

Well,

I thought the post was fantastic. I’m going to agree with both Todd and Peter Hamm on their point of views. I have watched both programs and have argued this very point that the musician who is real and connects with what they are singing/playing is how you reach people with music. I was very blessed to sit under a director who has taught me that very thing. Oh, and by the way Ben E., I loved your comments. Life is always about balance. Balance in the sense that what we are giving people musically is really coming from the heart and not our desire to satisfy ourselves. For example, The blonde girl(INXS sorry forgot her name) was always challenged to a singing dual but instead of complaining about always being chosen, she rose to every performance like it was her last. Now I watched that show several times and I have to rant that she didn’t win. Again, bad with names but the pretty boy didn’t connect with his audience like she did and it was very unfortunate she wasn’t selected. We connected with her every time she sang and she did it with style and passion. In a world of entertainment the ones who last are beyond talent but are able to connect their message(in this case usually bad) to their audiences. That’s how music is supposed to be done. Not disconnected and selfish, but personal, meaningful and vunerable. How many times are we guilty of missing the point that God has given us everything we have and talent is a gift that we use for His glory. With that said, I agree that we must be excellent. Our strive for perfection should refect our desire to give God our best. Not so that we can say, We’ve got it goin’ on in our churches. I’ve had the privilege to work with some incredible talent and been part of some amazing musical events. They didn’t get the exposure that they deserved but none the less, it was top notch stuff. However, God would have rather taken some of our events to even farthur places but people and their big egos got in the way. It really saddens me when people try to replace God’s spotlight with their own. Simply put, I believe God wants our best and we all need to give it, no matter what it is. Not for us, but for Him. Its a personal thing. We must check ourselves. Only we can know who we’re doing it for. I hope this gets us back on track Todd. God bless.

Christian rock is a disputable topic.  Personally, Christian rock, for me, has been a major element in my spiritual growth.  I highly recommend it.  I think a lot of it depends on what generation you come from.  I’m only 43.  What should it be: “Turn down that noise!” or “Make a joyful noise unto the Lord!”

King David was also (unfairly) put down for his worship style:

2 Samuel 6
12 Now King David was told, “The LORD has blessed the household of Obed-Edom and everything he has, because of the ark of God.” So David went down and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-Edom to the City of David with rejoicing. 13 When those who were carrying the ark of the LORD had taken six steps, he sacrificed a bull and a fattened calf. 14 David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might, 15 while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouts and the sound of trumpets.

16 As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, she despised him in her heart.

17 They brought the ark of the LORD and set it in its place inside the tent that David had pitched for it, and David sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings [f] before the LORD. 18 After he had finished sacrificing the burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD Almighty. 19 Then he gave a loaf of bread, a cake of dates and a cake of raisins to each person in the whole crowd of Israelites, both men and women. And all the people went to their homes.

20 When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, “How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, disrobing in the sight of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!”

21 David said to Michal, “It was before the LORD, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the LORD’s people Israel—I will celebrate before the LORD. 22 I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor.”

23 And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.

It seems to me that one can be “real”, “authentic” and WRONG!

There is a man called Saul that was “real”, “authentic”, “passionate”, “driven”, and even “commissioned”.  Seems to me that he was struck blind and brought to his knees (or is it the other way around?).

I have never been moved to take a cup of cold water to a thirsty person because of a song, regardless of how “real” or “authentic” the singer or song writer was. 

I have been moved to take a cup of cold water to another person because of the grace and kindness that has been shown to me.

It seem like it is easy to lose sight of the purpose of any action.  This becomes evident in music too. 

Look at what happened with Elvis Presley or many of the “Rock and Roll greats”.  They left their humbleness for the bright lights and destroyed themselves and their careers.  (Then were placed, in some people’s minds, as gods.)

I pray that this is not what happens in your churches.  (Been there, seen it happen too many times.)

Billy,
I do not want to read too deeply or mis-characterize your remarks but taken on face value, I find them somewhat unkind.
Yes, there are “local churches” who are all too willing to except mediocracy.  They’re fine with the unremarkable and perhaps even awful and have no desire to change it.
I’ve worked at one or two and they drove me nuts and they felt the same towards me. Even the most minor of efforts to raise the quality or deepen their understanding of worship had me labeled as “arrogant” and a “know it all.”
And yes, there are those with those same quailities (or lack there of) who think too highly of themselves and will push to be in the spotlight at these excepting churches.
I’ve also tolerated some exceptionally talented people who were also the biggest pains in the butt I’ve ever met AND I’m sure there are a few who might say the same about me!
But at many “local churches,” what you or I or American Idol might label as “unremarkable” stands above the average.
I in no way wish to promote mediocraty in worship at my church. I’m as picky as I can be with the gifts I have to work with. But if there’s one thing that holds true, it’s that time and again I find myself humbled by an unremarkable voice that comes from a heart that only desires to bring their best to honor God.  With that criteria in mind, I will readily give them 3 or 4 minutes to share.
Again, I apologize if I’ve read too deeply or wrongly into your comments but I’ve been in the “big show” with high standards and a host of quality talents & gifts and please understand that I’m not knocking it.  But right now, from where I’m honored to serve, I’ll take my small local church any day.
God Bless
Ben E.
Oh and Mike, these people I speak of sing from hearts that consistantly put roofs over heads, clothes on backs and food on the tables of people who “thrist” for such “cold cups of water.” Their simple songs sung with unremarkable voices touch my heart and move me to serve the same.
Once again, God Bless.

Gentlemen,

You missed my point.  I don’t believe in “bad music” in the church (see psalm 33:1-3). It should be done skillfully, joyfully and authentically...but it should flow from what pleases God and not what pleases man.  I am contending that rock-n-roll in the church starts with the notion of what attracts unregenerate man (seekers/post-moderns) into our church.  My question--which nobody dealt with--is: Is that the proper starting point of what style of music should characterize our worship of God.  I maintain that God desires distinction between HOW we worship Him and HOW the world “worships” its gods (see my original post on this subject).  And, yes, I do know how each generation has wrangled over instrumentation and style etc.  But my point is not so much about those things, but WHY does rock-n-roll rule in so many churches.  What is wrong with making a clear distinction between how the world chooses to express its rebellion against God in its music and how the church chooses to express its worship to God through music. Why do we associate the Hymns with “bad” “unauthentic” expressions of praise.  Again, I believe it is because our basis for our music choices in worship have flowed from our desire to please unregenerate flesh rather than to please God first…
pdl
ps. Todd, I won’t post again on this if it upsets you so bad where you feel you need to mock my well-intended comments...let me know if further comment is welcomed on this subject!

Peter,

Here is my question. Should we make a distinction between HOW (style) we worship God and HOW (style) the world expresses its rebellion against God?  Rock/rap is at this moment in our culture the preferred musical vehicle of rebellious expression against God and truly aids the unregenerated in his service to other gods.  Thus, the style itself carries with it a message of rebellion! Should we then take this vehicle and employ it as our mode of expression of worship to God. I am saying that in that light (as seen in Scripture--see my original post on this subject) God does make a distinction on HOW (style) we must worship him.  I find an unwillingness for many worship leaders to deal with this specific question. The overriding assumption is that style doesn’t matter. It does!  By the way, I used to lead my own worship band and even wrote a lot of songs to boot...but then conviction of the above principles began to change my approach to style and content of worship music.  I actually believe that it honors God if the church’s music is distinct in style and content from the world’s music.  Such a distinction is good, called for and in keeping with the message of the Gospel which exalts God and convicts the world of is need to repent.  Also, I like different styles of music ( I play sax and happen to love jazz), but again that is not a proper style for worship of God for the reasons I have stated.

pdl