Quote:

“The most disturbing thing to me about this entire article is that she said that she does all of this (sing-along, offering, listen to monologue) in order to grow spiritually. Is that what we have reduced spiritual growth to? It’s an empty used-car-salesman-type promise. ‘Come sing along with us, give us money and listen to an inspirational message and you will grow spiritually.’

I think the reason people leave our churches is because they are bored out of their minds...the weekend services don’t fill the spiritual void that so many people are living with.
Are we mis-representing Christ?”

Brilliant and honest observation, MountainGirl! 

Sadly, like most things the institutionalized church undertakes, discipleship has been relegated to nothing more than a few classes (not surprisngly, one of which always teaches submission to a local organization/pastor), and we wonder why the spiritual state of the American church is so pathetic.

It’s called “dumbing down,” which doesn’t help anyone but rather builds a welfare mentality in the “disciples” that leads to utter dependence upon that organization/pastor. 

It’s sickening to behold the number of “spiritual abortions” that occur when these unbeknowing “disciples” are released to real life situations.  The revolving door is alive and well.

As you stated, MountainGirl, people are looking for life, as in a living, breathing warm Body of believers who face the same trials but seem to make it and are learning what it means to be like Jesus.

Unfortunately, instead of a living organism the Church really is, these hungry souls are introduced to a mannequin.

Quote:

“I will say this, if you want to teach and preach in your local church whatever it looks like you need to be trained in Bible study/interpretation. Without training in hermenutics most if not all will not have an abilty to correctly understand the scriptures. It is silly think that you can interpret ancient literature without intense study. Yes we have the Holy Spirit to guide us but He has given us an intellect and expects us to use it.”

Spoken as a true seminarian!

One problem with your premise, Dan: that same mentality, emphasizing spiritual education over spiritual maturity, would disqualify the likes of such stalwarts as Peter, James, John, Matthew, et al, who were “unlearned men,” and yet turned the world upside down.

Paul, a highly educated former-Pharisee (interesting that all Pharisees were well educated in the nuances of “knowing God"), counted all of that as “dung,” stating that knowing Christ is all that is necessary in life and in sharing Christ. 

In fact, no where does Paul encourage believers to attend seminaries, which are filled with men’s versions of God’s vision for mankind, stating that love, God’s love coursing through us is what changes us and those we meet.

Paul also says that “knowledge makes arrogant,” as it puffs the mind up to think more of itself than it should.  Unfortunately, those who adhere to formal spiritual education can’t seem to understand that.  I wonder why?

As one who has earned a degree from a bible school, I can tell you that most of what is taught has little to nothing to do with meeting real people and introducing them to the real life found in Christ.  It has more to do with administration and ruling over an organization than it does with learning what it means to be a part of an organic entity.

Worse, it showed me the prejudices that instructor have in teaching THEIR version of what God meant.  While most instructors are good and decent, all they are accustomed to do is disseminating the erroneous doctrines that have been taught to them.

Thank God that He doesn’t qualify us based upon our education.

Quote:

“But have you ever been in a meeting or group that had “no one” in charge? Eventually, in my experience, someone steps forward and leads, either because they are a situational leader or a habitual leader. And yet STILL they may each have a gift to give, or something to add, even if there is a leader. Groups with NO leadership simply don’t continue. Either someone takes over because it’s their giftig (or ambition) or nothing happens and it falls apart. There is CLEARLY leadership described, expounded, and prescribed in the New Testament. Pastor Dan already quoted enought scriptures to make that point. (Thanks, Dan!)”

Well, Peter, I suppose one reason someone “steps up” in a small group is because we’ve been indoctrinated to believe that one person is the leader and all else are spectators.

This is what I call “ministry by the SELECT rather than by the ELECT,” which is completely without biblical foundation.

I’m convinced, as evidenced by the Scriptures and history (at least until about the second to third centuries), that when believers come together to GIVE instead of to RECEIVE, that the Spirit of God is the One who leads and guides the group. 

It is the mature believer who knows that in order for younger believers to grow they need to be free to express themselves, however messy it may become.  That is spiritual parenting: letting the growth process take place without our having to feel the need to intervene.  Believe me, it’s those elders’ joy to encourage ALL believers to participate and not be dominated by one person.

As for leadership in the Body of Christ?  There is plenty.

He’s called Jesus Christ and the rest are all servants.

Ricky…

You misunderstood what I was saying.  I believe many churches and organizations have gotten out of balance in regards to laity involvement.  However, you took it to the other extreme and implied that there was no place for pastoral leadership or organization and accountability.  There must be balance.  To clarify a few things,

1.  Authority - God has ordained roles of authority in our lives, primarily civil (Acts 23:5, Rom 13:7), social(boss at work - I Tim. 6:1,2), parental, and church. 

1 Thess 5:12-13 - “And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you and to esteem them highly in love for their work’s sake.”

As for Pastors - No, I am not saying that only pastors have the authority to speak and edify other believers, but they do have the responsiblity to care for, defend and guide those under their leadership.  I pastor a church and all of our people are allowed to share and speak about what God is doing in their lives, but the primary responsibility for overseeing, caring for, teaching and equipping of the saints is mine as the lead pastor. (Eph 4) There is God given spiritual authority there that must be humbly and prayerfully accepted and exercised.  It’s a servant position, not a dictatorship.

2.  We have small groups that encourage discussion and sharing.  I am FOR small groups, not against them. 

3. You wrote..."One problem with “small groups” is that most of them are nothing more than an extension of the “mother organization,” whose strangling tentacles make sure that those in the group don’t think for themselves but march lockstep with the organization’s “spiritual authority.”

You sure you don’t have a problem with spiritual leadership?  That sounds like it.

You wrote..."And why can’t the “totality of the church” (whatever that is) be expressed in a small group? How many people constitute a “church?”

I said the totality (meaning the full expression and purpose) of the church could not be expressed in one hour, whether a small group or not...The church functions 24/7 as believers seek to authenticate their faith in their daily lives.

4.  The NT church had prayer, fellowship, teaching, accountability, etc.  We need to pattern ourselves after that, no matter what form it takes...small group or otherwise.  But, the early church also had leadership, pastors and apostles who helped guide the churches as well as offer edification and correction.

Ricky, my intent was not to offend you, just to discuss this.

Ricky,
You make me laugh.  You just love to argue don’t you?  I bet you argue with your own shadow.  Honestly man you are wrong on this one I am sorry.  You can see it or not, but you do not have scripture to back up what you are saying.

“If you can’t get ten people to agree on this thread, how could you possibly get them to agree in an “un-organized church”?”

The “church” is split on many crucial issues.  In my seminary class, American Christian History, we just learned how the slavery issue split churches North/South (the Presbyterians, Methodists, and Baptists (the three biggest denominations), SPLIT over it).  Since then, the Pres. and Methodists re-joined…

Man - I didn’t get all the way to the bottom of this but basically, from what I did read… aren’t we all supposed to be Christ-like and isn’t there a scripture about not wasting your time arguing doctrine??? Basically if you’re on this thing getting all heated, what is it that you’re supposed to be doing that is being neglected?
Well, I’ve got work to do!!

Pastor Dan:

Quote:  “Without training in hermenutics most if not all will not have an abilty to correctly understand the scriptures”

With all due respect, this sounds very familiar.  In fact this sounds like the early Roman Catholic Church that didn’t allow the common person to read the Bible.  Only clergy, trained in Latin, could read the Bible and the would then interpet it (according to them) what it meant for the common man.  This is one of the main objections Martin Luther had with the Roman Catholic Church.

I am shocked that a man of God such as yourself would make such a statement.  On the other hand, I do believe that you are being more honest than most pastors.  Most pastors believe like you do (that only the educated elite can properly read and interpet scripture), the only difference is they won’t admit it.

Thank you for opening our eyes to the hidden truth that you share with your self titled brethren.