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Brian McLaren:  “I am Completely Orthodox in all my Beliefs about Christ”

Orginally published on Thursday, January 31, 2008 at 8:23 AM
by Todd Rhoades

Recently, the Charlotte Observer sat down with Brian McLaren and interviewed him over his new book "Everything Must Change: Jesus, Global Crises, and a Revolution of Hope". In the interview, McLaren articulates pretty well what he thinks about numerous topics. It's worth the read...

Q. Let’s start with the title of your new book, “Everything Must Change.” Everything?

Well, hyperbole is one of the most common literary tools we use. So, obviously, I don’t think the laws of gravity should change. Or the size of the earth or anything.

But the title really is trying to emphasize that the change we need is not just cosmetic. It really goes deep. The title actually comes from an interaction with a woman in Burundi, East Africa. When you think about the kind of world that about a third of our planet experience, you realize that for them everything must change.

Q. You say that many Christians should start by replacing the idea of getting themselves and others “saved” so they can go to heaven—the evacuation plan, I think you call with—with this idea of getting out there, in the here and now, and healing the hurts of the world. So when Jesus said, “As the father sent me, so I sent you,” he was talking not really about conversions but about tackling the world’s crises—Is that right?

Actually, I would put the two together. If we keep recruiting people to evacuate the earth, then every person who gets saved is, in some ways, taken out of the action. It’s like going to the bench of people who want to play in a football game and trying to recruit them to leave the (stadium) altogether.

A better image would be: What Jesus is asking us to do is go into the stands and recruit some people to come on the field and join us to play. The recruiting of new disciples is really connected to wanting to make a difference in the world.

Q. You’ve said that the “WWJD: What Would Jesus Do?” model is too simplistic. How would those people who get out of the stands proceed? What I want to say is that we have to listen to Jesus’ teaching. If “What Would Jesus Do?” means “How can we live our lives in a way that’s pleasing to Jesus?” then I think that’s a great question.

The problem is, we have to account for the differences between the first century and the 21st century. So if Jesus went from one place to another, he would walk and take a donkey. We take a bus or a plane, maybe.

Then we have to deal with other differences in context. For example, Jesus lived in a monarchy; we live in a democracy. So, Jesus never voted. But I think if he were here, he would vote. And Jesus never really talked about elections, because there weren’t any. But if he were here today, he might talk about that.

Q. You want a deeper reading of the Gospels…

Exactly. One of our problems is that some people don’t take the Bible seriously. They just dismiss it. And then other people claim to take the Bible seriously, but they read it in a very simplistic way. I think what we need to do is have people read the Bible with maturity and depth. And take it seriously.

Q. Have we domesticated Jesus because we don’t like the sting of his real message? Loving your enemies, for example. The title of Peter Gomes’ new book is “The Scandalous Gospel of Jesus.”

I think this is exactly right. It’s not that individuals intentionally try to domesticate Jesus. It’s that we have centuries and centuries of traditions and traditional ways of reading the Bible that keep us from seeing certain things.

The net result is that the Jesus in a lot of our churches has a lot of bad things to say about other people’s sins but not about our own. And he challenges other people to change, but kind of pats us on the back.

Q. Poverty—particularly this gap between the rich and poor—is certainly something Jesus talked about in his time. And it’s still with us, as he predicted it would be. And yet, a lot of Christians today seem to want to focus more on other things: homosexuality, abortion, evolution. Why?

This is really an important question in an election year. I think there’s a kind of a collusion—whether it’s intentional or accidental, I don’t know. But it’s a collusion between political parties and religious communities. So that religious communities end up emphasizing issues that political parties can exploit to divide an electorate and win elections.

As a result, we make a big deal about issues that Jesus said absolutely nothing about. And we say very little about issues that Jesus said so much about.

Q. But some Christians may see the title of your book and worry that you’re saying that what also needs changing is some basic doctrine. For example: Jesus’ divinity. Is that negotiable?

I affirm in the book that I am completely orthodox in all of my beliefs about Christ. I affirm all the ancient creeds.

But here’s where we have to face some deeper issues. The creeds teach us to affirm the deity of Christ. But then we have to say: What does it mean to live out the belief that Jesus was really the word of God incarnate? If we really believe that, then we’ll take very seriously what he said about how we treat our enemies. Instead, we often affirm the doctrine in our words—we can say “Lord, Lord”—but then we don’t actually do what he said.

The change I’m interested in is helping us flesh out what it means to affirm the ancient creeds and historic faith.

Q. You call yourself an evangelist. A fisher of men and women. Who are your fish in the “emerging church” conversation you talk about?

First of all, I was a pastor for 24 years in a neighborhood here (in Maryland), just between Washington and Baltimore. When I was a pastor, the people I worked with, they had never heard of “emerging church” or any of this stuff.

They were people who were truck drivers and construction workers and lawyers and teachers. The reason they came to the church had nothing to do with whether I wrote books or not. It had to do with whether the church really brought them good news and helped them get in touch with God.

So, my interest has always been people outside the church and helping them get connected with God. Really, since I began as a pastor. And that’s continuing now.

I get a lot of really encouraging emails and letters and sometimes people send me CDs. What really means the most to me is when I hear people who say, “I have never been a Christian. I’ve been turned off to Christianity. But your books are really making me interested in Jesus and helping me believe in God.” Or people say, “I got turned off to the church when I was a teenager. I haven’t been back in 20 years. But you’re making it possible for me to kind of re-start my search.”

Q. So you’re tapping into a hunger out there for something more honest?

I think so. Especially among our younger generation, there’s a feeling that a lot of our churches in America have lost their way. They’ve gotten completely preoccupied with money. They’ve gotten so infatuated with numbers. They have made unholy alliances with political parties.

So there’s a good bit of disillusionment out there. But, yet, there’s spiritual hunger. People don’t just want to walk away from God and be atheists or agnostics. They want to find a way to have a real relationship with God, but not feel they’re being dishonest or immoral in the process.

Read more of this article here...

QUESTION:  What, if anything, in this interview causes you alarm?  With all the controversy centered around Brian McLaren, do you think it’s all justified?

Todd


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  There are 10 Comments:

  • Posted by kent

    We keep asking this question whether it to Bill Hybels or Rick Warren or now Brian McLaren, are they orthodox? Do you truly believe in Jesus? Is your doctrine and faith pure?

    Okay they have answered the question, are we willing to take them at their word. Or because they do not focus on the same issues we do are we going to keep trying to see if they have slipped of into some heretical area. Brian is passionate about dealing with the macro issues of the our world, extreme poverty, human trafficing and other social justice issues he sees as absolute necessities of faith. he does not focus on abortion or the gay agenda as other would do. That does not make him less orthodox than any of us.

  • McLaren has been formative in my faith development, and so I’m loathe to say anything negative about him. And he is a very kind and caring person (which IS important--he bears the fruit of the Spirit’s work in his life). Further since he is in fact thoroughly (almost boringly!) orthodox, I’m frustrated with all the bad press he gets from (certain kinds of) Christians.

    The only thing that I disagree with in this interview, assuming I’m understanding him correctly (which I may not be), is that Jesus came to fix all that’s wrong with the world. In a certain sense, that’s of course true, since he came to manifest and announce the kingdom of God, which is God’s dream, God’s will, for the world. At the same time, I would suggest that Jesus’ primary task was the re-formation of a people around himself who would, through his faithfulness to the point of death, inherit the promises made to Abraham, thus becoming the new ‘Israel of God’.
    So then the piece I think is missing from Brian’s theology (or at least from this interview) has to do with the relationship between the Church and the Kingdom.

    There’s always a risk he’ll be misunderstood as ‘just’ a plain ol’ social gospeler unless he clarifies that relationship.
    Otherwise I think many of his insights are very helpful.

    My two cents.
    -Daniel-

  • Posted by

    daniel, how are we the new israel of god? i do not understand.

  • Posted by Peter Hamm

    Brian is the most misquoted Christian writer/speaker/thinker I’ve ever encountered. I’ve always thought he was orthodox in his beliefs.

  • Nothing in THIS interview causes alarm.  I am curious, Todd, as to why you asked that question in that way?  wink Hmm....

  • Posted by

    Rich -

    Can’t speak for Todd, but I think he was calling us to read this interview and in it look for something . . . anything . . . that would cause our brothers and sisters who consider him a heretic.  I think it somewhat of a rhetorical question.

    McLaren makes a great point when he says:

    “The creeds teach us to affirm the deity of Christ. But then we have to say: What does it mean to live out the belief that Jesus was really the word of God incarnate?”

    Why isn’t it considered heretical to believe something intellectually but resist the transforming power that belief should realize in our hearts?

    Wendi

  • Posted by Randy Ehle

    Like Rich said, “Nothing in THIS interview causes alarm.” However, I’ve been concerned in the past by things I’ve read from McLaren, and just him saying “I am completely orthodox in all of my beliefs about Christ” doesn’t wipe out those concerns.  In fact, that could be a loaded statement with very subtle undertones, much like the distinction between
    “inerrancy” and “infallibility.”

    Still, we (I) need people like Brian McLaren, Tony Campolo, Shane Claiborne, and others to help us (me) reconsider our lives in the light of our doctrine.  Despite the fact that orthodoxy and our orthopraxy are two sides of the same coin, most of us probably have a hard time giving the two sides equal focus.  We evangelicals (especially I) have probably overemphasized orthodoxy without really giving enough thought to how those beliefs ought to work out in the day-to-day of life; hence our focus on homosexuality and abortion, for example.  I’m glad I read the entire interview; it gives me hope!

  • Posted by Daniel

    Deaubry, “Israel of God” is the apostle Paul’s designation for the Church. The New Testament univocally describes Jesus as a reform prophet within Israel who reshapes Israel around himself. Because he makes himself the faithful Israelite and inaugurates a new covenant in his self-sacrificing blood, those who are baptized and united to him (be they ethnically Jew or Gentile) inherit in him the promises made to Abraham. This is why the Church is ‘the new Israel’. Baptism also marks off the believer as one who pledges allegiance above all to Christ and his reign (above our allegiance to this or that country, this or that political party, etc.).

    Sorry, this is kind of tangential to the post about McLaren.

    The crux of the ‘orthodoxy’ issue is who, and on what basis, you let define orthodoxy. Brian whole-heartedly suscribes to the traditional Christian creeds. But he’s certainly not orthodox if the person defining the ‘orthodox’ is, say evangelical Reformed (for whom so-called orthodoxy requires a post-creedal specificity of belief which McLaren I’m sure would reject).

    Cheers,
    -Daniel-

  • Posted by

    While Brian claims to be orthodox (and probably is), it is possible to read and agree with everything he writes in ‘Everything must Change’ without accepting the deity of Christ.  The picture of Jesus presented is (deliberately?) one sided. 
    Jesus as teacher and prophet, but not necessarily as son of God.  It is the mirror image of those Christians (the evacuation plan types) whom Brian criticises.  They emphasise his Lordship, but ignore his teachings, while Brian emphasises his teachings and ignores his Lordship.
    There is then a further problem with what Brian refers to as the ‘simple reading’ of the gospel.  Some will disagree with his take on how or whether the words of Jesus need to be ‘updated’ for modern ears.  For example, Brian presents alternate metaphors for ‘Kingdom of God’ that he assumes might be used by Jesus now (to avoid the militaritsic connotations of ‘Kingdom’).  But it may well be that those militaristic connotations were actually part and parcel of what Jesus meant (not that I think they were). 
    Be Blessed,
    Trent

  • Posted by Alan Nelson

    I just got back from McLaren’s “Deep Shift” conference.  (Don’t say that one too fast from the pulpit.) I got to spend some time with Brian along with an interview for Rev! Magazine.  I think it’s a lot easier to criticize people when you don’t know their heart.  Anyone who’s spent some time with Brian can be convinced of his tender spirit and resolute desire for good things to happen in the church.  I’m still grappling with some of the event content, but fully embrace the need to wrestle.  We need prophets like this out there, willing to stir the pot.  I fear those who reject such stirring and who are intolerant of those who would have use rethink our thoughts.

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