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MondayMorningInsight.com > Buzz:  Craig Groeschel on the Qualities of Innovative Leaders

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Buzz:  Craig Groeschel on the Qualities of Innovative Leaders

Orginally published on Friday, June 29, 2007 at 6:02 AM
by Todd Rhoades

As you know, I’m roughing it this week in the nation’s capital at the Buzz Conference, held at National Community Church. Well, actually it’s being held in one of the theatres at Union Station in Washington, D. C. since that’s where National Community Church meets.

One of the speakers Thursday was Craig Groeschel, the pastor of LifeChurch.tv.  Craig shared what he thinks are four great qualities of innovative leaders.  I thought I’d pass them on to you here today.

First, innovative leaders heal the sick.  Jesus sought out those in need and met their needs.  Unfortunately today, too many churches are inwardly focused and are not meeting the needs of unbelievers.  Craig said that in order to reach those who no one is reaching, we will have to do things that no one else is doing.  Our goal is to reach people for Jesus however we can, and in order to do that, we need to teach our people to love people who don’t know Christ.  His question to us was, “Who is God calling you to reach that no one around you is reaching?”

Second, innovative leaders break the rules.  Jesus broke the Sabbath rules.  Craig used the analogy of Nascar.  “Go straight, turn left.  Go straight, turn left.” Innovative leaders don’t take the common path.  They turn right!  Every great movement of God was started by a leader making a right turn.  Quest:  What is God calling you to do that’s never been done before?

Third, innovative leaders offend the Pharisees.  When you do something new to reach people for Jesus, the Pharisees WILL attack with a vengeance.  But Craid said we shouldn’t worry when the Pharisees are shooting at us.  We should worry when the aren’t.  He asked, “What new thing will God call you to create that will be hated today and embraced tomorrow?”

Fourth, innovative leaders redefine success.  Instead of saying how many people they are reaching and bragging about numbers, they are constantly reminded how many people there are still to reach.  We cannot be impressed with ourselves.  We need to stop building attendance and start building the Kingdom.

It was a great lesson on leadership.

So… you have my (and Craig’s permission):  Heal the sick.  Break the rules.  Offend the Pharisees.  And redefine success!


This post has been viewed 1533 times so far.



  There are 35 Comments:

  • Posted by

    Hi Todd,

    What excellent advice. It just rings true in my experience. As a church leader of ten years I feel the pressure of numbers all the time, but have always been aware of the numbers outside rather than the numbers inside the church. I loved this encouraging, liberating approach to leadership. I am about to move to a new pastorate and will have this advice resounding in my ears and heart!

    Many thanks,

    Mark

  • Posted by

    Good Stuff!  Thanks for this needed article!

  • Posted by

    First, I’m not a very articulate person and usually have difficlty expressing my views; however, here it is.  I agree we should certainly be innovative in reaching people, and do some things that are perhaps controversial, but I wouldn’t encourage doing whatever it takes “short of sin”.  Craig is right when he says to do “what’s never been done before”.  We have to be creative and in tune with our culture and be willing to “bend” what’s not neccessarily a RULE but what’s been traditionally done.  Thirdly, it feels as if alot of what’s being done in the church today, is for shock value.  I don’t think alot of the opposition and criticism comes from PHARISEES but from genuinely concerned Christians.  Our aim shouldn’t be to “offend the pharisees” but to please God.  Aren’t we being phariseeical if we’re taking our cues that what we’re doing is effective based on their response? I couldn’t agree more with Craig’s fourth point, that we need to stop bragging about our numbers and focus on the number that still needs to be reached! And finally, we don’t need man’s permission, Craig’s or Todds, to go out and be innovative. What we all need is stop paying so much attention to what everybody else is doing, and start listening to God’s Holy spirit.  He won’t mis-guide us.  He was very innovative, sometimes controversial but his aim was always righteous.

  • Posted by Wayne Cook

    This is one of the best articles on church leadership I have read in some time. If we are doing what Phyllis and what Craig are advocating, the “pharisees” WILL come out of hiding. We don’t try to deliberately offend them. It happens because they are in the flesh (meaning well, but too comfortable in their way of doing things) and when we obey the Spirit, His way clashes with the fleshly way. The problem with leadership is that we cannot judge the heart and do not understand why they are offended. It is better to err on the positive side and assume they have the welfare of the church on their hearts. An example is a couple who called me because they didn’t like a song we were using in the worship this Sunday...I treated them with love and “healing”, taught some about the history of music in the church and ended up with supporters rather than detractors.
    My concern is that we are too focused on church growth and health and not focused on healing the sick. The four questions are absolutely fantastic...I plan to sit down with them and start answering for my own ministry.
    THANKS FOR CHALLENGING MY THINKING!!

  • Posted by Ron Roy

    I question to do what has never been done before? Jesus said, “The things that I have done shall you do, even greater things, (not in scope but in number) for I go unto the Father and you see me no more.” We were created to do the will of the Father, nothing more or nothing less, just like Jesus, not my will, but the will of My Father, who has sent me. As the Father has sent me, now I send you. For what? The will of my Father and your Father. This is not controversial, we should hate controversy and love the truth that we might be saved and in agreement with the provisions of the Father and His will being done on earth as it is in heaven. This is not controversial anymore but the basis of unity of the faith, working through love. Faith without obedience is dead works. Faith in the Father comes through obedience to Christ, no other way, no other truth, no other life. It is now and always, Christ in you and in me, our only hope of glory.

    Finally, (2Thes. 2:10,11) Knowing the truth and loving the truth are two different perceptions, love will demand obedience, knowledge will puff up and become iniquity, which is stubbornness and idolatry. Are we really loving the truth or has God already brought a strong delusion and we are believing lies? We all must answer from our own hearts, because truth can only be settled in the hearts of men. Oh we know about the heart, deceitful wicked, who can know it? I the Lord, search the hearts, what is the Father revealing unto you? In our own hearts, what is it? Truth or deceit? It must be settled in our hearts. As far as numbers are concerned, sometimes when the Lord multiplies, He divides. And when He adds He subtracts. Remember what pleases the Father? The branches bearing fruit, but the non-bearing ones, He taketh away. (John 15:1,2) And if you are bearing fruit, He purges to bring forth MORE FRUIT. The fruit is Christ likeness, obeying His Father. As He is so are we in this world. (1John 4:17) Judgment is here in the house of God, whose house we are.

  • Posted by Heather

    I am all over the point about offending the Pharisees.  I’m a prodigal-daughter, who is fairly new to leading in ministry, and I’m astonished at the Pharisee-factor that comes along w/ it.  Jesus gave relevancy the first launch, didn’t He?  I just don’t get it.  Just gotta keep praying that Jesus’ legacy of relevancy will penetrate His house and continue to reach the lambs that are looking for Him there.

  • Posted by Norm

    Even as late on Monday (almost Tuesday) that I am reading this post it blessed me. I so look forward to Monday Morning INsignts and this one did not let me go. I don’t think it is wrong to offend the Pharisees, Jesus did it. There are those who are offended by the truth> If we live it, teach it, and preach it, it will offend.

  • Posted by Wyeth Duncan

    The things Groeschel says caught my attention, but probably not for the reasons he intended:

    “Innovative leaders heal the sick”
    Only Jesus can “heal the sick”, not us.  Groeschel seems to overestimate our ability to “reach” people.  What Groeschel calls healing the sick, I would call, simply, caring.  We can’t “heal the sick”, but we can care by showing acts of kindness and proclaiming the “good news” which, under Christ, has the power to “heal the sin-sick soul”.

    “Innovative leaders break the rules”
    Jesus didn’t “break the rules”; he fulfilled the law.  God didn’t call his followers to be Antinomians.  And the person that turns “right” instead of “left” on the racetrack is going to get himself (and others, perhaps) killed.  Turning right is not innovative; it’s stupid!  Innovation just for the sake of innovation is foolish.  The “rules” which Jesus broke were man-made rules which, in effect, voided God’s rules.  We’re called to follow God’s “rules” (i.e., Scripture), and where man-made regulations come into conflict with God’s law, we are to obey God rather than man.

    “Innovative leaders offend the Pharisees”
    I take Groeschel to mean by the “Pharisees”, traditional-minded Christians.  Why do so many associate Pharisees with fellow believers?  Pharisees were unbelievers.  Sure, they were traditionalists, as far as the Judaism of the day was concerned, but they did not believe in Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God, therefore, they were unbelievers.  “Pharisees” today would be unregenerate, nominal Christians (kind of like the kind that control the mainline denominations) not fellow-believers.  But, secondly, I don’t recall anyplace in Scripture where we are commanded to cause offense.  We’re called to live at peace and cause no offense, but I don’t recall anyplace where we’re instructed to cause offense.  We’re told that the unbelieving world (like the Pharisees and Saducees of Jesus’ day) would be offended by Christ and the gospel, but we are never instructed to cause offense.

    I think church leaders would be better off following advice which sticks closer to what Scripture actually does say.

  • Posted by Leonard

    Wyeth,
    I appreciate your attention to semantics but I am not sure what you read was what he actually said or meant.  As for Innovators heal the sick, I don’t think Groeschell would ever say that he actually heals anyone, but rather innovators are those who seek out the sick for the purpose of healing.  Instead of running away from sick people or instead of building ministries for their own satisfaction, they seek to innovate for purposes of healing the sick.  His reference is most likely not referring only to the physically sick. 

    As for breaking the rules, again my guess is that he is not compelling rebellion or sinfulness but rather not being locked into status quo.  Jesus did indeed fulfill the law but to the Pharisees he broke the rules.  To the culture he broke the rules for speaking to a Samaritan woman, touching lepers and a host of other ways.  Jesus broke rules of communication by changing common stories to point out flaws in thinking.  Jesus was a huge rule breaker but not a law breaker. 

    Finally I don’t think he was giving a command to go out of your way to offend the Pharisee but rather describing the impact of innovative leaders.  I also don’t think he was saying Pharisees were believers but rather comparing those who hold narrow traditional views often act like a Pharisee.  The point is that when you set out and do some innovative ministry people will be offended. 

    I was reaching students who were in gangs and some very narrow people were offended I would even associate with people like that.  I did not work with these kids because I wanted to offend, people were offended because I worked with these people and in my mind I was okay with that. 

    Not trying to attack but felt like you were more nitpicking that actually responding to Groeschell’s words.

  • Posted by Wyeth Duncan

    Leonard, I understand your points, but I still think implied in Groeschel’s words are the assumption that we have the power to change lives or assist God in changing lives.  That’s my only point (I’m certainly not referring to physical healing, although God can do that).  I affirmed that we should seek to perform acts of love and kindness, and that would certainly include seeking out those in need of help.  But, at the end of the day, if the church is to be more than just a social service agency, God must do His work.  He, alone, can “heal the sin-sick soul”, as I said before.

    As far as “breaking rules”, each case you mention (speaking to the Samaritan, touching lepers, etc), Jesus didn’t break rules; He carried out the true intention of God’s law.  The Pharisees were the ones breaking the rules in that they elevated their man-made laws to the level of divine commands.  Sometimes evangelical “innovation” is nothing more than a philosophy of “the end justifies the means”.  I don’t think you can point to Jesus (or Paul or whomever) to justify those kind of innovations.  The “seeker-sensitive” philosophy, and all that goes along with that, comes to mind.

    Jesus said the world would be offended because of him—because of who he was and is—and the apostle Paul pointed out that the “message of the cross” would be offensive to “those who are perishing”.  This is a far cry from offending because of our innovations.  Sometimes leaders offend because there is a failure of communication.  Sometimes leaders offend because they ride roughshod over those who disagree with their innovations.  Sometimes “innovative” leaders offend because of the arrogance of their attitude that new and “innovative” is always better that “tried and true”.  That’s a different kind of offense than Jesus was talking about.  I think it is a mistake to label believers who disagree with innovations as Pharisees.  Pharisees were “blind leaders of the blind”, “white-washed sepulchers”, “of [their] father, the devil”.  Pharisees were unbelievers.  We are never justified, in my opinion, in calling another believer in Jesus Christ a Pharisee.  That’s a major insult (and, maybe, that’s why the “innovators” are offensive).

    So, I’m not nitpicking as much as I’m pointing out the flaws in using Jesus as justification for being an “innovative leader”.  We all could stand to read Jesus more carefully.

  • Posted by Leonard

    I am sure we find a great deal of agreement on this subject, I just think we might be looking at 2 sides of the same issue.  For example, Jesus did not break any of God’s rules but he did break the rules of his culture.  How did he do it? By fulfilling the law. 

    Of course God changes lives and no one has that power, do you really think Groeschell misses this point.  I would say after examining his ministry you would find differently.  I do not see where he implies this directly or indirectly. 

    Craig is not saying, think up some innovation to offend people but rather people are offended by innovative approaches to the gospel and ministry, just as pharasees were offended by Jesus message and approaches.

    I guess I am not seeing what you see in Craigs words.

  • Posted by Wyeth Duncan

    Leonard, you’re not seeing what I see, so let me try to show you with direct quotes from Todd’s post.

    Groeschel said, “Jesus sought out those in need”

    Did He?  Did Jesus seek out the needy or did Jesus simply meet the needs of those He came in contact with?  There is a difference.  Jesus seek to heal all the sick.  His “mission” wasn’t to seek out those in physical need.  His mission was the salvation of His “sheep”.

    Groeschel said, “Innovative leaders heal the sick.” “In order to reach those who no one is reaching, we will have to do things that no one else is doing.  Our goal is to reach people for Jesus however we can...” “Who is God calling you to reach that no one around you is reaching?”

    The assumption here is that God call US to reach people.  That’s what Groeschel is reported by Todd to have said.  I’ve quoted it.  What I’m saying is, the Bible doesn’t say that.  The Bible says GOD reaches people: “All that the Father gives me will come to me..” (John 6:37), “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” (John 6:44), “No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father” (John 6:65).

    Groeschel said, “Our goal is to reach people for Jesus however we can”

    This is evangelicalized pragmatism.  “However we can” is a slippery slope that could potentially lead to error unless we’re firmly anchored to Scripture.  And, if we’re anchored to Scripture, “however we can” is not an option.

    Groeschel “used the analogy of Nascar.  ‘Go straight, turn left.  Go straight, turn left.’ Innovative leaders don’t take the common path.  They turn right!  Every great movement of God was started by a leader making a right turn.”

    That’s not true.  Period.  Examples?  Let’s take just two: Jonathan Edwards and George Whitefield.  These men weren’t innovating so much as they were just preaching the old biblical doctrines.  They were travelling the “common path” of historic Christianity.  What happened?  GOD showed up and did great things through them.  It wasn’t innovation, it was the sovereign move of God that made the difference.  The same could be said of Martin Luther (Luther wasn’t an innovator; it was the Catholic Church that had innovated), or just about any leader of a “great movement of God”.

    In Groeschel’s analogy, what, exactly is the purpose of “turning right”?  It sounds like innovation for the sake of innovation, to me.  And, in the case of his analogy, “turning right” would be an extremely foolish move.

    Groeschel said, “When you do something new to reach people for Jesus, the Pharisees WILL attack with a vengeance.”

    Who, exactly, are the Pharisees Groeschel refers to?  It’s obvious he’s not referring to the lost he says he’s trying to reach.  So, he must be referring to fellow believers who don’t like his “innovations”.  THAT is an insult because, as I said before, Pharisees were children of the devil (Jesus said that!); they were not believers.  In all likelihood, it’s not the innovation that’s offensive, it’s the arrogance of the innovators that is offensive.  This is NOT the offense of the cross; this is just plain offensiveness.

    “Craid said we shouldn’t worry when the Pharisees are shooting at us.  We should worry when the aren’t.”

    Isn’t that, in effect, looking to offend?  And, at any rate, as I just said, this is not the offense Jesus or Paul were talking about.  Groeschel is not talking about the offense of the gospel, the offense of the cross, or suffering shame with the people of God.  This is all about causing (and inviting) offense because of “innovations”, which have nothing to do with the gospel message but everything to do with methods.  The Bible knows absolutely nothing about such an offense which we should look for and expect.

    As reported by Todd, Groeschel’s message is not a biblical message.  That’s my point, essentially.  The message that Groeschel is reported to have delivered is one of pragmatism--whatever works--and to (blank) with those who disagree: they’re just “Pharisees”, anyway.  I’m not making it up; I quoted it above.

    What I’m saying is we need to read our Bibles more carefully and adhere to biblical--not “innovative"--methods of “reaching” the lost.

  • Posted by Wyeth Duncan

    Correction:

    My first statement should read

    “Did He?  Did Jesus seek out the needy or did Jesus simply meet the needs of those He came in contact with?  There is a difference.  Jesus DID NOT seek to heal all the sick.  His “mission” wasn’t to seek out those in physical need.  His mission was the salvation of His ‘sheep’.”

    Sorry about the typo.

  • Posted by Leonard

    Wyeth,
    Obviously we disagree about what Craig meant but thanks for the dialog.

  • Posted by

    No matter how one read and received Craig’s thoughts, there’s a couple things that I’d like to interject here that I got from reading his comments. His comments on “healing the sick"… he said, “Unfortunately today, too many churches are inwardly focused and are not meeting the needs of unbelievers” struck something with me.

    I took the healing the sick comment as a “spiritual healing.” It’s our responsibility to share the message of salvation with those who are lost - their salvation will bring them spiritual healing in that they will be reconciled to God (2 Cor 5:18; Ro 5:10). (Don’t read TOO much into that - it’s a general comment...) Obviously we will not bring the “healing” only God can do that - but that’s something that came to mind for me.

    I agree that too many churches are inwardly focused and are not actively involved in sharing the message of salvation with the lost world - especially the world that lives next door. That’s a huge struggle I’ve seen in my former church - the people were eager to support missions, but ask them to invite a neighbor to church and they suddenly disappeared.

    I would ask - when we DO go out and try to minister to those who are in need, who do we choose? In the age of designer churches, demographics, etc… do we seek out only those who will “fit in” with the demographic mold that we want for our churches? Or, are we out there ministering to people that most of our church members would have nothing to do with, like Leonard was doing. When (or if) we go door-to-door, do we knock on the doors only of homes that are well kept or in nice neighborhoods, or do we include the “undesirable” home on the block as well - the overweight person who walks with a limp - the house with a yard full of weeds and junk, plastic on all the windows, and plants growing out of the gutters? When we seek to engage people in whatever way we do, do we look only for the people who look like us or do we also seek to engage the old woman who’s smoking, got the leathery skin, has half of her front teeth missing, talks with a gravely voice and looks like she got dressed yesterday. Are these the kind of people we seek out as well when we “seek out those in need?” Many times we’d rather talk to and engage someone who’s like us, rather than someone who’s different.

    Getting innovative can be controversial (as we’ve seen above), but no matter how we do it - I would ask us to remember - who are we seeking to reach - people who are like us (who fit into our demographic), or anyone who we come in contact with - no matter who they are. Just my two cents…

    --David S.

  • Posted by

    Wyeth writes… [Did He?  Did Jesus seek out the needy or did Jesus simply meet the needs of those He came in contact with?] Wyeth, by the very act of becoming man and putting on flesh, God sought and seeks to meet the needs of those He comes in contact with. It was on purpose. He came to seek and to save the lost, and many of those are sick.

    Also… [There is a difference.  Jesus DID NOT seek to heal all the sick.  His “mission” wasn’t to seek out those in physical need.  His mission was the salvation of His ‘sheep’.] Indeed, he certainly did come for the purpose of saving us. Agreed. None of the regulars here would disagree with you on that. Did he go out of his way to be where the sick were, like he went out of his way to “dine with sinners”? Yes, I believe so.

    I think the article presented some great metaphors for how we should approach ministry if we are to be innovative in the way Jesus was.

  • Posted by Wyeth Duncan

    Peter, I will have to disagree.  I’m trying to make a subtle distinction, but I think it is an important distinction to make.  Jesus did not “go out of His way” to meet physical needs; He went “out of His way” to accomplish salvation.  Jesus’ “mission” was to “save His people from their sins” by giving His life “as a ransom for many”, but while in pursuit of that mission He met the physical and spiritual needs of some (not all) who crossed His path.  Apply this to the church: If we make the meeting of physical needs our “mission” ("healing the sick”, as Groeschel called it), I don’t see that we become anything more than a social service agency or clinic, albeit religious.  Society already has social service agencies in place.  The church, however, has the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation.  No one else has the gospel to offer, only the church.  As we are going about with the message of the gospel, of course we love people and take the time to meet physical and emotional needs, as we are able, but the meeting of physical needs never becomes our “mission”.  To put it another way: Being sick, poor, disabled, etc. is no barrier to getting to heaven.  These are real needs, but not ultimate needs.  Sin, on the other hand, is an absolute barrier to seeing God.  Sin is the biggest issue.  That Jesus lived a sinless life and bore the holy wrath of God against sin is the sinner’s only hope.  Therefore, the gospel--the good news of what Jesus has done--is first.  Proclaiming the gospel doesn’t preclude meeting physical needs, but we never let the meeting of felt needs usurp the priority of the gospel.

  • Posted by

    Wyeth,

    A couple of things:

    1.  These were my words about Craig’s words.  Please give a little latitude for something getting lost in the translation.

    2.  As one who heard Craig’s talk in it’s completeness, I think you are knit-picking.  (I really do).  I think it would be wise to hold off on your criticism until next week when Craig’s entire session will be posted at the buzz conference site.

    3.  If you know anything about Craig’s ministry, it is all about helping people meet Christ.  I think you may be putting words in his mouth if you say that he’s more concerned with meeting people’s physical needs than their spiritual ones.  Again, I think that’s where the knit-picking starts.

    Respectfully,

    Todd

  • Posted by

    Wyeth writes [herefore, the gospel--the good news of what Jesus has done--is first.]

    Nobody said it isn’t, actually. I think we’re arguing over semantics here, and as Todd has put it, perhaps nit-picking.

    But one example… when the centurion came to ask if Jesus would heal his servant… Jesus prepared to go “out of his way” to heal him.

  • Posted by Wyeth Duncan

    Todd, you are right: These are your words about what Groeschel said.  That’s why earlier I wrote, “As reported by Todd…” I will take your advice and try to look up Groeschel’s entire session next week to hear for myself what he said. 

    Nevertheless, Todd, please know, Groeschel’s message as reported by you is NOT a biblical message.  It is a pragmatic (whatever works) message that dismisses critics of pragmatic innovations, calling them “Pharisees.” I have a lot of problems with a message like the one you reported, for churches can, indeed, draw a crowd by meeting physical and felt needs, but souls aren’t saved except as the sovereign Spirit of God works through the proclamation of the gospel.  In my opinion, because souls are at stake, the gospel is worth nitpicking about.  However, since you, apparently, misquoted Groeschel by putting in his mouth words he did not say, I will back off.

    In the future, please, be more careful when you quote others.

    And Peter, the text says, “When [Jesus] entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him…” (Matthew 8:5).  Jesus wasn’t going “out of his way” to meet the centurion; the centurion came to him.  And Jesus didn’t go anywhere to heal the servant: “And to the centurion Jesus said, ‘Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.’ And the servant was healed at that very moment” (Matthew 8:13).  As I said, Jesus met needs as they crossed his path.

    Let’s try to be more like the Bereans (see Acts 17:10-11).

  • Posted by

    Okay Wyeth,

    You’ve decided (perhaps before you finished the article) to disagree. The message is very much, imho, a biblical message, even in the “limited way” that it was presented by Todd, to do things the way that Jesus did them.

    For the record, I didn’t say Jesus went anywhere to heal the servant, but he was certainly prepared to. You blew by my assertion earlier that in becoming flesh, Jesus went out of his way to reach us and to do all the things he said. Again, He came to seek and to save the lost, and many of those are sick. I think you are struggling with semantics.

    I agree. Let’s be open-minded (as the NLT puts it) like the Bereans! wink

  • Posted by Ron Roy

    I have heard a lot through this limited discussion, Brothers, but, when our opinions start to dictate to the discussion it ceases to bear fruit. Keep the fruit in this discussion and we all will be enriched and blessed with revelation by the Spirit of Christ which is in us all. Controversy will always bring opinions which is the very cause of the controversy. I personally hate controversy, as I stated in my first post. We are not teaching each other in this type of discussion but seeking the truth of the Father’s intent and purpose. Let us all be reminded to do that in our next discussion of this sort. We are many members but one body, so also is Christ. What we have done with this topic, has added different perceptions to the same point. This will always bring a need for dialogue, which is edifying, exhorting and comforting in the right spirit. I personally appreciate every comment that was made because of the heart it came from? Simply it is how we see it personally, but what collectively, as the body of Christ, can we reap from it? If I ever post my opinion, please disregard it. OK?

    One final thing I received is the sincerity of each one of you, as well as your love for the Lord. Who else talks and often thinks on His Name? We are all in the book of remembrance, I pray. Amen

  • Posted by

    Wyeth,

    I sat and broke bread (that’s KJV for eating supper) with Craig last week.  We can get all caught up in symantics and the meanings of words all day long; but I think you are taking a great deal of latitude talking about a brother whom you do not know about his ministry (which from your writing you know little, if anything about)

    Is your comment to me:  “However, since you, apparently, misquoted Groeschel by putting in his mouth words he did not say, I will back off.” trying to win me over in love or prove your point?

    (It did neither, by the way).

    The discussion of “did Jesus go to the centurion; or did the centurion go to Jesus” is an intersting one; but the real issue to me seems to be ‘are lives being changed; people being converted; and disciples being made’?

    All these things are things that I know (from personally talking with Craig) are his motivation.

    I’d love to hear how God is working in your church to achieve these things.  And I promise not to nitpick.

    Todd

  • Posted by Wyeth Duncan

    Todd, I have simply commented on your post--your report of what Craig Groeschel said--and responded to comments that were addressed to me.  I didn’t know I had to know or know about Groeschel before I could comment.  I disagreed with 3 of the 4 points you said Groeschel taught, and I think I communicated clearly my particular disagreement with those points, as they were presented.  If “taking a great deal of latitude” means freely expressing my opinion, I plead guilty.  I would hope that you would want comments to contain freely expressed opinions, even if they disagree with your posts.  Isn’t that the point of allowing comments?  At any rate, my opinion has not changed.

    I’m not aware that I have attacked or defamed anyone.  I tried to focus my comments on the words of the post, not the character of the writers.  But, if I have attacked persons, please let me know, and I will immediately apologize.  (And, by the way, the use of “Pharisee” in the original post WAS an attack on people.)

    As far as my church, you’re welcome to view its website (http://www.cclf.org).  I am not the pastor or one of the pastors; I am an active, fully-participating member.  Our attendance averages over 1,000.  Just a couple weeks ago, we received about 80 people, who had just completed membership class, into full membership.  We’ve sent out about 3 short-term mission teams this summer, and we support several full-time missionaries scattered all over the world.  So, I think we’re doing our part to reach people and meet needs.  But, like I said, you can check out the website to see for yourself.

  • Posted by

    I totally appreciate everyone’s insights… but this gets back to the
    same old thing (no disrepect intended):  Can’t we just start “doing” and stop
    dissecting everything for days (hours, posts) on end?  I don’t have the answer, just
    swimmin’ along with you all, we’ve had this same discussion (debate) under our
    own roof.  Have we all completely lost what it’s all about?  Or do we even know
    anymore?  What are your thoughts?

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