Ryan - amazing thoughts.

Craig - I get the sense some of the folks on this list have been feeling defensive, and so if you’ll allow me to take a different approach I want to affirm that your feelings are justified.  Meaning, we *should* feel like when we faithfully worship through finances that it is going toward something healthy and not self-serving.  When that appears otherwise or when it looks like we’re building a personal empire instead of investing into the Kingdom, I understand why (from a biblical standpoint, even) we would want to be sure we’re supporting a ministry that has merit to it.

That said, while your feelings may have justification I would hope that this wouldn’t be a period at the end of that sentence, but rather a comma.  If you’ve had a bad experience, acknowledge it as you have.  If you don’t, then perhaps those in the church who are promoting the wrong things won’t ever learn.

But then let the sentence continue… find another way to honor God and the Scriptures.  Jesus, for instance, knew how messed up we’d make the church and yet he chose to place His faith in us and do the baton pass.  The church is obviously His “plan-A-and-no-plan-B” attempt to restore the world and people back to life. 

And if He can have that kind of faith in us with the full knowledge of what our worst days might be, perhaps we can have that kind of faith in the local church, too.

Because while the pastors that are wrong need to hear your discontent over it, the churches that are in the “right” need people like you and I to get behind them and fan the flame of ministry forward.

That dollar in your hand?  Yes, it might build someone’s empire. 

On the other hand, it just might be used to change a life, feed the poor, buy a Bible, invest into kids, rent a baptismal pool, provide housing, free up a leader to invest into people, give gas to the needy, purchase a blanket for the homeless, provide an advertisment that catches the attention of someone looking for hope, replace some guitar strings that will be used to help people worship, pick up the tab for a smoothie that a teenager drinks while listening to a youth worker talks about Jesus, and so on.

Interesting tension, isn’t it?  Maybe that’s why we call it faith.

I’m sorry for the hard experience you’ve had.  If I can help you sort out this journey at all, please email me at

Craig,

I really don’t think the Bible teaches that it’s a sin to count money, or to keep track of it. It does seem that it’s a sin to build oneself huge “storehouses” instead of investing in Kingdom work.

We track money because every cent we take in and then spend, every cent, is spent on kingdom work… including the salaries of those who work at the church ,which are NOT extravagant, nor are they so paltry that I have to take a second job to make ends meet. If I had to work a second job, then I wouldn’t have been around recently on several occasions when people needed to talk to someone about struggle in their life.

We track how we’re doing because it directly reflects the Kingdom work in our community.

So we are shrewd with our money… so that when we realize that we need to build an additional space for Children’s ministry… we don’t do it foolishly, we use a lot of volunteer labor, we are very careful about the costs… because the building of that building is Kingdom work that will make a difference for Christ in the lives of children and their families. We try to build neither too small, nor too big.

When we invest in a better Keyboard that improves the sound of what we are doing, we are investing in KINGDOM work… I don’t overbuy… nor do I underbuy.

When I invest in a backup system for the treasurer, I am insuring that she won’t have to do work twice because something unforeseen happens (and it has...)

Do I occasionally spend foolishly? In my personal life, sure. I probably don’t need that Ice Cream cone. In ministry… never. But… I also regularly give extravagantly…

With all due respect, your suggestion of a “money fast” in our current society is not wise, in fact, such a fast might hamper our ministry efforst for God’s Kingdom horribly. What would I say to the person in sudden need who comes in and requests financial aid to keep the heat on in the winter. (Our benevolence budget is significant… Everyone’s should be.) You might say that the more “resource gifted” in the community should help… and I would answer, that by their giving to the church and by our giving to the community in this way… they are helping directly, since they ARE the church!

Craig, it is interesting that you did not answer my questions about yourself.  Why is that?  No one here wants to counsel you, just know who were talking with. 

As for tracking money given?  If money has the potential to be the root of all kinds of evil, and no one can serve 2 masters, and we are supposed to be generous, and as Paul said in 2 Corinthians it is a measurement of our love… then what people give is as much a spiritual issue as it is a personal issue. 

When a person does not give at all it reflects an immaturity in their friendship with Christ.  If no one can know or no one keeps track, how can that person be shepherded in an area Jesus spoke about, money, a huge number of times?

Law requires a church keep track as well.  Stewardship mandates people keep track. 

Tell you what, why don’t you go live 1 year without cash.  No money at all as you suggest.  Trade chickens for labor or however you will accomplish this then send us a note and tell us how that worked for you.

Leonard Lee wrote: “Craig, it is interesting that you did not answer my questions about yourself.  Why is that?”

Leonard, It could be that the question was off topic. It could also be that there wasn’t time this morning to answer all the questions put to me and I had planned to answer later. 

You then wrote: “No one here wants to counsel you..”

Leonard? 

I’m a bit disappointed. That statement sounds like you are trying to appoint yourself spokesman for the group. You are a bit out of line announcing what others in this group are trying to do. I hope you don’t use the same technique in trying to claim yourself spokesman for God.  Please don’t do that.

You then wrote: “… we are supposed to be generous, and as Paul said in 2 Corinthians it is a measurement of our love… then what people give is as much a spiritual issue as it is a personal issue.”

No argument there.  None at all.  Christians should give and give much.  My thesis is that, when Christians are generous, the stewards of Gods money should not be so rude as to count it and they should not comment on it when it is received. To do so is obscene.

“When a person does not give at all it reflects an immaturity in their friendship with Christ. “

Agreed.... but again, my complaint is not about giving to God (Its good to give and give much) my issue is with pastors counting and commenting on gifts that don’t belong to them.

“If no one can know or no one keeps track, how can that person be shepherded in an area Jesus spoke about, money, a huge number of times? “

There is a time for shepherding and then there is a time for Christians to mind their own business.  The modern Christian church isn’t very good at minding its own affairs. Many Christians seem to believe that God gives them a special pass to gossip about the lives of others. Something about a speck in your brother’s eye vs. a plank in your own eye comes to mind. 

“Law requires a church keep track as well.  Stewardship mandates people keep track.”

I know a little something about the law and I think you might find that unless you are trying to avoid paying your fair share of taxes you actually don’t have to keep track.

“Tell you what, why don’t you go live 1 year without cash?”

Because I’m not I’m not trying to convince innocent trusting faithful Christians that their gift is to God while I’m quietly putting that gift into my own pocket and calling it mine.

If its God’s money we need to quit stealing it.  If its not God’s money then we need to be honest with people and tell them the truth.

Leonard can speak for me anytime!

Craig writes [Because I’m not I’m not trying to convince innocent trusting faithful Christians that their gift is to God while I’m quietly putting that gift into my own pocket and calling it mine. If its God’s money we need to quit stealing it.  If its not God’s money then we need to be honest with people and tell them the truth.]

It is VERY important that the church be more careful stewards of resources than the “world” is. We must have a very high standard of financial responsibility. In that, I agree with you.

But Craig, every cent of my salary, as a pastor, is money that is invested directly into the Kingdom of heaven, because I work full-time in that endeavor in a direct pastoral role. That includes the portion of the money I’m paid that I spend on utilities, gas, mortgage, food, etc… I do not steal one dime of that money, it is Kingdom money. There may be some who do, but it’s hard for somebody outside a situation like that to say.

You wrote [the stewards of Gods money should not be so rude as to count it and they should not comment on it when it is received.] Well, ya have to count it to make the deposit, I can only assume you are talking about public recognition of specific individuals’ giving. I’d agree… that is obscene. That’s why our church leadership team has stipulated that no window or chair or anything like that can be designated as a memorial gift. No buying “favors” to get your name on a plaque, in other words. Is that what you’re referring to?

Mark Base writes [If it’s God’s money, do you get a say in where it goes?  Or should you tithe regardless of how you feel?] An interesting question. If you attend a church with a governing body made up of laypeople (like ours here is), then you should trust that they will make sound decisions with God’s money, especially if you’re a member and helped, in one way or another, to select them. Once you’ve given it, it’s not your money, it’s God’s money, so those who’ve been placed (by God, imho) in a position to make that decision should be trusted.

The way I see it is this. A “tithe” is money given to the church to keep the church doing the ministry that the world so desparately needs. Beyond that, an “offering” might be money (or goods) given above and beyond… and that might be specifically targeted or designated, but a tithe should not be.

This is really an issue submission vs. control.  People generally like to be in control whether it has to do with money, directional issues, decision making,etc. 

This has stunted the growth of the church.  Instead of submitting to leadership, it’s become common for those under submission to turn the tables and make demands of their leaders.

Of course, the best leaders are those who serve well… but for us to require submission of those whom we have been assigned to support is wrong.

We tithe not because church leadership has proven themselves, but rather because the Bible tells us to.

We are called to submit to leadership regardless of if they are good or evil.  John Bevere has a great book on this called Under Cover.  Only if leadership were to attempt to cause us to disobey scripture should we not comply.

So, should we serve and obey and tithe and support even when the system doesn’t meet our expectations?  Yes.  Should we pray about it, talk with our leaders from a position of humility and be rightfully concerned?  Sure.

Tony Myles wrote: “Craig - Thanks again for sharing, and while I’m not a coffee drinker I’d love to connect… smoothie’s are my favorite, but only when I have a coupon.  Seriously, though, open door on connecting.  I’d love to learn about and *from* your story.”

Thanks for the invite, Tony.  I seem to be getting around a lot lately.  I visited Mars Hill Church in Grand Rapids and Willow Creek in South Barrington in the last few months and I just got back from a speaking engagement at a little church near Manchester England. However, It wasn’t a spiritual talk. The vicar invited me over and used his church building for the venue. The Church of England is interestingly different from American churches.  You will have to tell me what town you live in because I might be passing by sometime in the future and, if time permits, I could meet you for a smoothie.  I’ll save up my coupons. If you wish, send your details to my email address: 

change the xxx to net

If you are interested I’ll even tell you how I feel about copyrighted Bibles.  I would talk about it here but these guys are already hyperventilating and I fear they may keel over with a heart attack if they hear any more of my issues with the modern church.

Its clear once again that God does truly work in amazing and mysterious ways.

It seems that just today after our little discussion about the modern church’s lust for cash, a book titled “UN Christian” is now shown on the main page of this web site.  Here is the description: 

unChristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity and Why it Matters
Christians are supposed to represent Christ to the world. But according to the latest report card, something has gone terribly wrong. Using descriptions like “hypocritical,” “insensitive,” and “judgmental,” young Americans share an impression of Christians that’s nothing short of… unChristian…

So if you think what I was telling you was out of line or over the top or “an extreme reaction” then you should try reading this book and understand that its not just me trying to wake you up.

Hey, Tony Miles, is this you?

http://www.connectionchurch.org/icast/IdentityPt4_TonyMyles.mp3

Well done!

Hey, here is an idea. It would be interesting to have a place where pastors could paste a link to what they think is their most significant sermon.  If someone was to hear only one sermon from a pastor, which one should that be?

Todd Rhoades, what do you think??  Is there room at MMI for such a thing?