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Group Opposed to Bellevue Leadership Forms a Board of Directors

Orginally published on Monday, January 29, 2007 at 7:31 AM
by Todd Rhoades

Yes, that's correct... there is now a group of members of Bellevue Baptist that has formed it's own group officially opposing the church leadership. On their new website (integritydoescount.com) they say... "It is not uncommon for leadership changes within a church to result in some discontent and even discord within its membership. But, for a group of members inside a church of 30,000 to incorporate themselves, form a board of directors, and set out for the sole purpose of instilling accountability in its own church government and leadership is unusual and perhaps unprecedented."

We’ve talked about the Bellevue situation numerous times (here, here, and here) at MMI.  We’ve also talked about the growing propencity of people to air their grievances with church leadership over the web through websites and blogs.

Again, someone ups the stakes with an official, chartered group within a church taking their fight for ‘integrity’ public.  How will churches deal with individuals who feel “compelled to sound its voice, take necessary measures, and use all available resources for seeking the truth concerning questionable events and actions”

Admirable goals, I guess.  But to do so publically… I’m not sure.

More from their website:

Integrity Does Count, Inc., (IDC) consisting entirely of (BBC) members, announces its charter and aims to bring truth to both the unanswered questions as well as to the non-disclosed facts and records of the current administration.  Members of IDC, Inc. have been carefully following the events as they have occurred over the past 18 months at Bellevue Baptist Church under the leadership of Senior Pastor,

Integrity Does Count, Inc. will hold a church-wide meeting away from the campus of BBC on or before February 16, 2007, where it hopes to address the above concerns as well as to establish a congregation-approved framework for church governance that will include up-to-date bylaws and regulations.  An attempt was made to seek approval for an on-campus meeting. A further attempt was made to obtain a mailing list of church membership in order to inform each member of the upcoming, church-wide meeting. Both attempts were futile, and IDC’s requests were denied by BBC staff members. 

The church administration has willfully neglected to uphold the State of Tennessee Statute, T.C.A. 48-66-101 et. seq., that governs Not-For-Profit organizations and leaves this incorporated group of BBC wondering what the church administration stands to gain by locking its doors and closing its books. 

Realizing the necessity for following God’s design as illustrated in Matthew 18, and missing the fellowship of faithful members who are choosing to worship in sister churches, Integrity Does Count, Inc. is even more compelled to sound its voice, take necessary measures, and use all available resources for seeking the truth concerning questionable events and actions within Bellevue Baptist Church in Cordova, Tennessee.

A few questions, I have…

1.  When does this kind of thing (if ever) become necessary?

2.  When is it time to just let go and leave?

3.  How, particularly in a Baptist, congregational rule church, does a group all of a sudden become convinced that nearly every leader in their church (most of whom they’ve elected) are all evil and lack integrity?

4.  If you’re a member of the leadership in this church, what do you do with members who go on the record and start a splinter group from within the church to fight your leadership?

5.  Is anything EVER gained for the cause of Christ through this kind of exchange?

Please understand… I am by no means saying that all that has happened (particularly with the recent staff firing) was done correctly or incorrectly; and I’m not taking sides on which side is actually correct… my question is more:  how far should a congregant (or a group of congregants) go to get the outcome they feel is correct?  And how much of this is fueled by a ‘this is MY church’, ‘this is OUR church’ type thing?

Please… help me understand better be telling me what you think?  Take a few minutes to answer the above questions.  I think it’s valuable to do so, if only because this very well could happen in your church in the near future.  It seems to be a growing trend…

Thanks,



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  There are 63 Comments:

  • Posted by

    I think question 5 is really all that matters in the discussion. There is no way this accomplishes anything for the cause of Christ because how can he be glorified through division? If Christ can’t be glorified, how can it be “right”.

    I think a fundamental issue that exists in situations like this is the issue of who is in charge. As long as someone believes that either the staff or the congregants are in charge, they are doomed to repeated these mistakes. If somene believes that Jesus Christ is the head of the church, and he will ultimately judge both leadership and congregant, then you are freed to take your hands off the issue. The battle belongs to the Lord.

  • Posted by Leonard

    If the Apostle Paul were alive he would write another letter called First Bellevue.  Maybe someone there could read First Corinthians and exchange the name.

  • Posted by Chet Thomas

    I do not know enough about Pastor Gaines’ actions to know whether or not he has handled this properly. While I have some doubts, there are too many unknowns for me to have an informed opinion concerning this. Having said that, I have to take real issue with the church members that have formed this splinter group. If you don’t trust your Deacons or your Pastor, elect new ones (this being a Baptist church). If that doesn’t satistfy you, or if you are unable to do so, you always have the option to go elsewhere. This whole sorry mess is a disgrace to the body of Christ.

  • Posted by

    To question #2 – it’s time to leave when you know that you can no longer submit to the leadership.  I can’t see how forming an independent group to bring about leadership change or accountability is ever biblical.  That’s not to say that accountability and change aren’t biblical – of course they are.  But the leaders in our churches are anointed by God, even the ones that fail and fall.  If David refused to lay a hand on Saul, “God’s anointed leader,” even when the opportunity to do so might have persuaded him otherwise, can’t we simply find another place to worship and serve the Lord when we disagree?  Heck, no one from Bellevue’s leadership is gathering an army to try and murder the unhappy congregants.

    To question #5 – I agree with Gib, but think it’s worse than “nothing gained for the kingdom.” The lost world watching us is supposed to “know us by our love.” Such behavior, I think, causes outsiders who watch us to think we’re self-centered, prideful, and bickering babies who aren’t one bit interested in what is happening outside our front doors.  And I also think their perception is often correct.

    Wendi

  • Posted by

    1 - I am not familiar with the Baptist by-laws but surely when they joined they commited to a government model that covers conflict. It is hard for me to see any church government model that allows for confederate members to cause such discord that is condemned in Scriptures.

    2 - It is time for them to leave in my opinion. Why destroy innocent lives by causing such an uproar in a congregation. What can the possibly gain from a firestorm except burn down the grocery store and then beg for food.

    3 - This smells like a power struggle from those who want their own way regardless of the cost to the whole. It has to be people with money and influence or they could not get such a forum started. Also it has to be people who demand their way is right and want a public protest to cause suspicion of leadership. Leadship is put in a position to protect some things because of both legal and scriptural boundaries.

    4 - Again this is a church government question. What does the covenant this people made when they joined the church say. If it does not handle this type of conflict then they should make sure it does in the future. Also maybe they need an outside arbitrator who is a professional in conflict to come in and see if they can settle this down without further loss.

    5 - This is an ugly divorce in the making and has reached a level that will hurt everyone if not stopped. There is nothing to gain and their purpose at this point is not to gain but to punish.

  • Posted by

    Sad. Very, very sad. I totally agree! This does not help the cause of Christ at all.

  • It is a sad day for God’s church when we begin to develop groups within groups.  This in no way can further the mission of the church, only cause deeper rifts and may never prove to solve the underlying problem.  It seems to me that there must be a little compromise on both sides.  The current leadership of the church has an obligation to it’s members and faithful supporters to explain its actions.  If a staff firing is at question, perhaps it was justified under the by-laws of the church.  If it was done to “rid of” those not in agreement with the Sr. Pastor, then it is wrong.  I am not convinced that forming a special group is the answer.  I personally believe that Satan himself is the master of division in the church, and he is loving this one.  Maybe a little more time on their knees and less time on the internet is needed.

  • Posted by

    Having served a church that had an unofficial opposition party, my reaction is a broken heart. As in any disagreement, “it take two to tangle.” Leaders can easily fall into the trap of thinking that they are the purveyors of truth and that they are accountable to no one. They often assume that church members will accept their leaders’ direction without question. It is a dangerous trap. On the other side of the coin, though, church members can fall into the trap of believing that the church belongs to them and that their desires and preferences are of the greatest concern. Change is often not tolerated to the point of forming groups to oppose the change. My experience has has demonstrated to me that in-fighting situations are often a blend of the two - leader intransigence and member insistence on having things their way. The element farthest from the minds of people, in many cases - not all by any means - is the Kingdom of God. In my experience, in churches where seeking the Kingdom is the top priority, leaders submit to being accountable to the members to remove all appearances of arrogance while members encourage the leaders to lead as under-shepherds in the service of Jesus Christ. Where Bellevue, both leaders and members, stands in terms of seeking the Kingdom is not clear from reading the articles in this blog. I fear that there is too much “seeking the kingdom of Bellevue” and not enough seeking the Kingdom of God. The recent events there can do nothing but tarnish the reputation of Southern Baptists in particular and Christians in general. And it adds fuel to the anti-church and anti-Christian arguments for those in our secular culture.

  • Posted by

    Such a sad situation.  Dr. Rogers would be heartbroken if he were still here.  Maybe God was gracious in taking him home earlier than any of us wanted.

  • Posted by

    Ephesians 4:11 outlines the leadership jesus established for the local church in the form of the pastor/shepherd.  Jesus is the head over the church, he established the pastor to oversee the local congregation.  YOu may not agree with all the decisions pastors make, but you are still required to submit to leadership.  Right or wrong, ultimately the leadershp must answer to the Lrod Jesus themself.  When you manifest traits challenging pastor leadership you are not only insubordinate to the local pastor but you are also being insubordinate to the Holy Spirit and to Jesus himself.  Everybody involved in this nonsense of dividing within the church needs to read Romans 13:1-2 It makes it very clear who establishes authority and who removes authority. God and He doesn’t need any help from us.

    Clearly this picture of Bellvue is not the church that Jesus died for.  The church that Jesus died for at Calvary was a church making a difference, a church of power, of anointing, producing life changing fruit and maturity. 

    IF the folks at Bellvue cannot submit and support the local leadership, right or wrong, they should take their dog and pony show on the road and get out of that church while there is still time to savlage the great work that was started there.

    surfdog

  • Posted by

    Having been a Southern Baptist for most of my life, I have seen both sides of the fence.  One side where a staff member needs to leave and won’t, and on the side where without cause, some unmercilessly persecute the staff.  Let me address the above questions:

    1.  In a SBC church with constitution and by-laws this kind of thing is never necessary.  There are Associaitonal and State resources to help deal with a situation where a church needs to fire a pastor who is unwilling to leave, without ugliness.

    2.  If these people feel that the whole (55 staff members) staff lacks integrity, then it’s time to find a new church.

    3.  This is this important question.  In every church there are “warlords” - people who would love power at any cost.  They often lay low in a healthy church, but when a crisis of any kind arises (even as simple as a pastoring retiring and new search in place) they rise to the surface and stir up trouble.  While I have read what is going on at Bellview, and don’t know if the pastor did the right thing in a timely fashion, this group has gone over the line in calling into question the entire staff.  BTW, asking for the kind of meeting they wanted on campus, a uncalled business meeting, and asking for the membership list does go against the by-laws.  Also, their claim of not knowing what is going is laughable since on Belleview’s home page are the Personnel Committee and Investigative Committee’s reports for all to see.  It is important to realize that every SBC church has a process for the membership to fire staff.  Usually they don’t want to follow this process because it makes people uncomfortable and it is usually a minority of people who want to take this step.  How much easier to make the staff’s life a living nightmare and force them to resign.

    4.  For the leadership, well all I can do is pray.  Every staff member/pastor I have seen try to deal with this kind of dissension, has been on the losing end.  If these people won’t leave (which they should) and if the rest of the body doesn’t stand up against them, then in the end they probably will win.  Unfortunate.

    5.  This never does anything good and only harms the cause of Christ.  Godly people leave and serve elsewhere because they get hurt, warlords stay and hurt the remaining church, good staff leave and are terribly wounded and hesitant.

    Dr. James Merritt, faced official opposition when he became pastor in Snellville, GA of a mega-SBC church.  However, when he stood up at the business meeting he thought he would be fired at, and told them he would go if what’s they wanted but if they wanted him to stay, they were going to stop undermining him, the congregation so overwhelming supported him.  Come to find out, it was a very vocal, high in lay leadership minority that was in opposition.  They’re problem - they couldn’t deal with the grief that the 30 year tenured pastor had retired.  It had nothing to do with Dr. Merritt.  It does happen sometimes with a positive outcome - but not very often.
    My heart is broken.

  • Posted by

    This is so sad but it happens in the American church because our culture has invaded.  It parallels the political landscape.  In our recent elections when a political party loses, it will take every measure to try to turn the results around.  There is no grace.  It seems that the same mentality exists at Bellevue.  We no longer respect order and authority in our nation.  If we don’t get our way, we fight. 

    I don’t know all the factors of Bellevue but it does have a Constitution and By-laws, Christ as the head, the Bible, and the church has pastors and deacons.  Accountability is there...did they use it biblically and in grace?

    It appears this group, by forming a corporation within the church may be in violation of state law as well. 

    If the church had a meeting where the grievances were heard per their by-laws and this group was not satisfied, they should leave in grace.  Their actions appear to me to be sufficient to ask each person among them, “Where do you want the church to send your church letter to?”

    If Paul were alive, he would not put up with this group.  He would not bother with sending them to other congregaitons...he would put them out fo the church.  In the early church, the pastors and deacons were gentle, humble but FIRM.  They did not care about popularity and getting votes or pleasing men.  They served Christ!

  • Posted by Lane Douglas

    While I completely agree that the Scriptures call for a complete and wholehearted pursuit of unity, I find it intriguing and bordering on the hypocritical when Protestants denounce the concept of church leaders being formally and publicly questioned.  We owe our existence and theology to the very process we are claiming is un-biblical.  The very name “protestant” comes from the notion that Luther’s followers “protested” the church leadership.  So while I am not cheerleading further division… I am simply saying that if we believe that this process is “always wrong,” and “all the time,"… we should return to catholocism.

  • Posted by

    #1 - It becomes necessary once the church leadership thinks itself more then the flock.  In doing so, makes itself unaccountable or secretive or unverified in behavior, action and spending.

    #2 - It is time to leave once the leadership has lost its credibility, however, this does not mean that your responsibility for those still in the congregation is ignored.  If your neighbor and you are in a burning house, you are not only responsible to get yourself out, you are also responsible to your neighbor.

    #3 - Easily, the leadership is usually assembled by the senior pastor and then the training from the senior pastor slowly twists those below him to adhere to his point of view on the management of the church.  Some go quickly and willingly, some take more time, but in time you can almost hear the parroted words of the senior pastor through the rest of the leadership and they earnestly believe what is said.

    #4 - Did they follow the scriptural approach for dealing with conflict or not?  Did they approach the leadership one-on-one, then with a brother, then in front of the congregation.  Do they have a point?  I would hope the first reaction, to the one on one, would be serious prayer, openness and forthright disclosures.  Are you giving the appearance of immorality or being unaccountable?  Pastors, in the church model in the USA, have terrible power - and some use it incorrectly.  The flock must follow the biblical standard in dealing with these issues and if the pastor is offended or persecuted when they do, then he needs to check himself.  If they don’t, the pastor is still bound by biblical response, but he does not have to tolerate such in his flock and if the offended ex-flock make a public display, the pastor should detail the biblical conflict resolution plan and how it wasn’t followed.

    #5 - Is there ever anything gained?  Well, yes.  If the pastors have transgressed and think themselves unaccountable or “above” the flock - and a large portion of the flock unaware of this behavior, they would believe that this behavior of the pastor is acceptable and God-approved (in a recent email I read from a member under such a pastor, it was equated that even questioning the pastor of that church was equal to a slap in God’s face).  The leadership can use these opportunities to shine the light of Jesus to the world in dealing with these problems.  To clam up, seal up and put up walls and make defenses makes the organization look no different from Enron.

    My guess would be almost all of these issues are in two categories, money and immoral behavior.  Both are serious problems that cannot be ignored.  Why should the members of the flock permit such a leader to prey on others by leaving and saying nothing?  Would we, after escaping a criminal, merely be OK letting the criminal continue to exist without doing something?  A criminal can only kill our flesh, pastors can lead people down the wrong path and to destruction, eternally.  How much more of a responsibility is due to ensure the health of the body as a whole then to correct errant leadership?

    I’m not speaking of the Bellvue issue as I am not versed in the details of that issue, this is just a generic response to the asked questions.

  • Posted by Tye Male

    Leadership is flawed because leaders are flawed. If the leadership has attempted to “lead like Jeus” with a commitment to servant leadership, then there is nothing else that can be done. For me, the answer is servant leadership.

    A group of 10 people at a church I served at called for a business meeting because they disagreed with a decision that was made - a big decision. The deacons (think Elders) met with them to answer their concerns instead. I felt that a meeting like this would be like throwing gasoline on a raging fire and no one would benefit. I was probably right, but also wrong too. Their “right” was to have a meeting because they met the stipulations of the constitution, so they should have been afforded the meeting.

    Question - why would a church have such a stipulation? Regrettably many of them left the church. In the end, no one “won” and the cause of Christ was dealt another black eye.

    Let’s pray for the leaders of Bellvue. This is not about decisions or groups, this is about the cause of Christ and HIS church.

  • Posted by Doyne Cantrell

    Dejavue. 

    It does not matter what the size of the church, this can be devastating to the effectiveness of the ministry the church is called to do.  Of course the size may determine how it is handled, but the truth is, it is not going to do the community of believers there or the community they serve any good at all.

    While we all seem to be concerned about the effect this will have on the body and how unbiblical this is, (and rightly so) I am also concerned for the impact this will and already has on the leadership.  Though I don’t know all the specific details, I would say that there seems to be lack of regard for the Biblical offices of Pastor and Deacon in the church.  This is not something unique to this particular church.  There are many churches that have and are experienceing this same situation, only on a smaller scale.  Nevertheless, it is still just as devasting to the church and the body of Christ as a whole.  My question is; How can we, as fellow pastors and leaders, minister to the leadership of Bellevue.  It is very difficult to endure in ministry when there are those who oppose your leadership openly and are not willing to accept that God has gifted the church with the leadership it has.  That does not mean that the leadership is infallible, it means that God is the one who should deal with them. 

    The true solution to this situation is very simple.  The Senior Pastor needs to call the church together for an extended time of prayer and fasting. They should all seek GODS direction and everyone should allow Him to lead.  They must follow Gods leadership or there will never be a complete solution to this problem.

    I for one am prying for the leadership to do as God leads them and I know that others are praying as well.

    .......... Just my thoughts.

  • Posted by

    I don’t know this church or live near it.  So, I have only an opinion. 

    From what I can tell learning about it this morning, this presenting church conflict can be viewed from many angles but in fact reveals at the core a ‘legitimation of authority’ crisis with political, legal and spiritual dimensions. When large congregations with extensive property, legacy holdings, not to mention large staff and laity following, have a group of vocal laity questioning their leadership’s authority to lead, the spiritual power of the Gospel can quickly be supplanted by doubt, suspicion, and subterfuge.  On the other hand, questioning the right of leadership to lead is always a live issue at any institution where people gather. 

    Large insitutions, even government, are particularly vulnerable to legitimation crisis issues and need leadership staff who can maintain and build credibility.  For instance, right now America has a President who has lost most of his authority with the American public regarding his policy on Iraq because the vast majority of America does not trust his decision making (regardless of whether he was right or not, this is the political reality).  If an additional crisis was added to his plate, he would very probably be impeached. 

    Getting back to Bellvue’s crisis, in comes in the context of national history.  Ever since Jimmy Swaggert’s indiscression and Jim Baker’s fall, not to mention the Catholic church abuse scandal, there has been a process of high profile Christian leaders being dealt with severely when there was a coverup related to potential or illicit sexual activity.  It seems to me that this has never been balanced easily or well against our Biblical heritage of honoring Moses and David, two patriarchal figures of faith who both committed murder. 

    What’s my bottom line?  How we treat each other when we find out about moral failure, and how we change the subject back to the Kingdom of God, is at least as important to the Kingdom as whether something occured 17 years ago in this Bellvue Pastor’s life.  I suggest that this church needs a period of “holy convocation” where people en mass pray, repent, and seek after a spiritual revival where God’s manaifest presence turns this mess into an opportunity for confession, grace, forgiveness, and reconciliation.  Ultimately, some or all of the Staff will need to go, as probably do all of the opposing church members, to another church where they can stop reliving the psycho drama that has now taken over their lives.  This church needs a fresh start.  God help the eventual new Senior pastor and team to bring healing and reconciliation and salvage what can be salvaged.  No one should want to have this psycho drama and legitimation crisis go on any longer than need be. It should be replaced with a time of holy focus on God and a time of public renewal and prohetic word and teaching, with times of prayer and fasting.

    On the macrocosmic and Kingdom scale, God has said that judgemnt will begin with his house and then move to the world.  If we beleive the end times are coming near, there will be a continual exposing of all that God wants to expose.  And he will oppose pastors and Presidents and corporations who do not follow His will, just like He will deal with errant laity.  We all must humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God, because all of us fall short of His glory.

  • Posted by

    Todd-
    I think another few questions should be added to the fray.
    1. Have we started making (sub-conscience) our buildings and heritage God thus breaking Commandments 1-2?
    2. Did the members truly listen to the Teachings from their previous pastor, or simply worship the fact that there was a lot going on at the big church?
    3. In Answer to Question 5: Could this be God removing his hand from a previously dynamic church (Rev 2.5)?  If this is the case then God is honored when his name is no longer taken in vain Command 3.
    4. Should we pray for a Pride breaking, every individual heart exposing, gut wrenching, Act 5 type Powerful Holy spirit revival in our lives first and then for all churches of all strips who claim the name of Christ?
    5. God closed His own Temple for misrepresentation does he not also have the right, and responsibility to close (regardless of the fashion) his churches also?
    I don’t presume to have the answers for these but I have been thinking these thoughts in recent years based on my observations and even Barn’s research where only 9% of professing believers have a Biblical world view. I too am grieved. I signed on to Follow Jesus and have been disappointed by most of the “institutions and folk” who claim His name. I pray that my life does not blaspheme his name. And I can disciple others likewise.

  • Posted by

    I think there are valid points on both sides.  On what is the opposition basing it’s claim that the leadership is not complying with the regulations for 501-c-3 status?  Address it!  Are the books sequestered?  Why?  The books of a church should always be open to the membership. 

    This is not to suggest that the leader should not be the one to make the final decisions.  That is NOT a Biblical model for church governance.  No leader in the history of God’s people was ever called a president, deriving his power from the will of the people.  God’s leaders derive their direction from the will of God and they have to answer for the way they follow that leading.  No amount of pressure from the membership can modify this truth.  God is going to look at pastors on the judgement day and ask how they followed His leading.  I really don’t think He’ll be that interested in whether or not the congregation wanted to do something else.  The Nation of Israel wanted Moses to take them back to Egypt., as I recall.

    My point it is that whatever God has told you to do, do it!  And be open about why you’re doing it and let everyone see how the books look along the way.  And if questions arise, deal with them head on and immmediately.  The main thing coming between pastors and congreagations today is communication.  There isn’t enough of it.  God wrote us 66 books to let us know how he wants us to conduct His business.  In addition to this, He grants each one of us a private audience every time we ask.  Certainly, we must set more finite boundaries, as we are finite creatures.  However, we should strive to communicate just as openly so there can be no misuderstandings.

    To those questioning your leadership I would only say, examine yourselves as to your true motives.  If you seek to serve God better, then carry on.  If you seek to diminish your pastor’s authority over you, then you are in error.  The church is not a democracy.  Christ is the head and we who are called to lead are His subordinates.  Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say anything about the members of a church voting on what the leader should do.  If you feel your leader is in error, show him why you feel that way.  And then go to God TOGETHER to seek the answer!  You show me one place in the Bible where God allowed the people to depose a spiritual leader who was honestly trying to do his best for God.  Your pastor is responsible for you.  Read Timothy if you don’t think so.  He will be judged for how he led you.  He deserves every bit of help you can give him.  If you have something legitimate, press on.  If you just want to go back to Egypt because you like onions instead of manna, think again.

    I was deposed by a group who thought they knew better than God what I was supposed to be doing and how better to spend our money.  I didn’t communicate well enough and I wasn’t open enough and it was my undoing.  Don’t make the same mistake.

  • Posted by

    Individualism.  These problems are the effect of individulaism and radical pride that is consuming our country and our churches.  If someone doesn’t like something or has a complaint then it becomes a divisive issue.  Why should we expect the church to be any different than the people in the culture?  Wait a minute...I think we should expect the church to be different, but we are people in the culture.  We are supposed to be the “called out ones.” I think this will continue to escalate as we individualize and customize our experiences in culture.  This is the root.  How do we deal with it?  This tragedy of distractions the enemy has brought to us and we have brought on ourselves is crippling us.  We must choose to stop the politics and start loving and serving the poor and the oppressed.  Until then the culture will never take the church seriously.

  • Posted by

    If what is said is true about the Minister of Music being forced out then Gaines DEFINITELY needs to go.  Where did pastors get the idea that they are the ONLY ones called by God to a church?  God calls EVERY minister to a church, and pastor had better be absolutely sure that his actions against a fellow minister are the based on clear mandate from God and not because HE has decided it’s “time for someone to go”.  That is pride and arrogance at its worst.  “Only I know the will of God.  Only I know wha’ts right for this church. ‘I am the pastor.’” This kind of controlling spirit is completely counter to the under-shepherd servant leadership that is supposed to be the model.  He cannot possibly know or control everything.  Be the pastor.  Do the preaching.  But let those who are called by God and by the church to other ministers to DO their ministry.  The best pastor I ever knew said it was his job to lead the church, to find the best people to lead with him, and then to stay out of their way and let them perform their God-called ministry.  Amen to that.

  • Posted by Cody

    Lori and Lane’s comments reveal much about the problem at hand. Underneath all of this mess is the mistaken idea that Christ’s church is a democracry. It is not. As American’s in particular, we have woven many our concepts of democracry into church leadership. The church, Chist tell us is “(His to) establish, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

    The church, Christ’s own family, His own body, is a THEOCRACY not a democracry.

    Saddly the SBC in particular, in my experience, has furthered the cause of existence by opposition and division rather than the growth of Christ’s church for many years and perfected such divisiveness through it’s focus on democractic polity rather than submission to God’s appointed and annointed leadership.

    I have not witnessed healthy division anywhere. Christ calls for unity in His family. Period. We can have unity without having to agree on every point. Diagreement without disharmony. If the church was focused on the purposes of winning the lost, loving God with all it’s being and loving others the same it would remain constantly busy with things that make an eternal difference.

    Is the rebellion at this church making an eternal difference? None of us can say.  We do not sit in the judgment seat. But those in rebellion, are certainly not using the time, talent and treasure that God has gifted His church with to make an eternal difference.

    Rebellious sheep are not really sheep are they? They hear no master’s voice, Christ calls His church His flock. Sheep know and follow their master’s voice. If the rebellious sheep at a church do not hear the voice of God’s annointed and appointed one then they should follow David’s example and leave the kingdom quietly. When Saul threw his spear at David - David had a number of possible choices - he was after all annointed by Samuel, he was very popular, he could have run out screaming “look at the injustice” “join me in overthrowing Saul!” or he could have - being a pretty good shot - thrown sprear back right through Saul - he could have met in secret and then incorporated publically a band dissenters to take Saul down...but what did David do? HE LEFT QUIETLY. It’s a powerful example in scripture to follow. Christ said “as for you - follow me.” What else should we be concerned about doing? Read Gene Edwards A Tale of Three Kings. For me, it shed more light on the hurt from disobeying God’s lordship than anything besides scripture.

  • Posted by

    Good morning Todd;
    Again you have provided something brand new to my exposure of what lengths we Christians will go to, to prove to the world we are really a mess.
    We have lost the vision of our primary purpose. No doubt there are issues of integrity and Character. However, It seems that a loss of vision and purpose turns our resourses inward and upon ourselves, instead of reaching the loss. In a quirky way it reminds of the horrific ideal the germans had under Hitler with the “ethnic” cleansing mantra. And his government of spies, assasins and secret police was the undoing of his “empire”. What ever happened to GRACE, FORGIVENESS, RESTORATION? We’re so busy watching our for the jot and tittle that we leave the weightier things of God’s law of love totally abandoned.
    What did the apostle Paul say in Gal. 5:14 - 15 “For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: “love others as you love yourself. But if instead of showing love among yourselves you are always critical and devouring one another, watch out! Beware of ruining each other.”
    Jesus said that the Phariees “...strained and gnat and swallowed a camel.” It seems the gnat of finding the “truth"” has swallowed the camel of carnality, selfishness, and pride in one gulp.
    I don’t think there is room in the church for a religious gestapo! Do we need accountability, restoration, correction? Absolutely, continually! But not under the guise of the law, but under the direction of His Love.
    Help us Jesus, please!

  • Posted by

    “Again, someone ups the stakes with an official, chartered group within a church taking their fight for ‘integrity’ public. “
    This my friends is NOT something new or different. Nor is it going to be the last time we grieve over the picture that we as Christians...the called out ones...are giving a lost world.
    All you have to do is look right down the street and you will find that Germantown went through the exact same thing. The BBC website uses the same links to same sites and articles like “Culture Crashing”, makes the same comments about the “evil” Rick Warren, and even quotes the same Tennessee statue to create a non profit so that phone numbers and address info can be taken and used for calls and mail outs (just wait...it’s coming). If you know about either situation you might even notice that some of the same names are even used in both places. When Germantown came crashing down to the ground (and I can assure you that it did) who did they use to stop the bleeding in the staff area other than the very people that were jumping off the Bellevue ship. They have now hired at least 4 former BBC staffers including the much praised ex BBC music minister Dr. Whitmire. After losing more than 70% of its congregation in a span of three months, the only growth Germantown has seen is that of the angry Bellevue members moving over. It’s like watching Wife Swap The Church Edition. The similarities even go down to the much talked about president of Mid America Seminary, Dr. Spradlin, who caught much flack after publicly chastising Dr. Gaines. Do a little research and you will find that this is the same Dr. Spradlin who allowed the non profit Germantown group to hold their rallies at his seminary and even took a donation from them after their battle was ended...the same one who was elected interim pastor of Germantown. Crazy huh? 

    Looks to me that Bellevue seems to have picked up the same play book and is running the same offense. An offense that you can actually now go and purchase for the low low cost of $21 at this web site:  http://gbcsaved.com/.  Don’t believe me??? Go check it out for yourself...you might not want to eat first because what you will find there will most like make you sick.  And who do you think helped design that web site....none other than the same guy who is in charge of savingbellevue.com.  It is all just too much....all I can do is shake my head and wonder where the “bride” is headed. I guess what really amazes me is that I think Bellevue and others going through this (yes, there will be many more) actually expect a different result. 

    So “How far should a congregant (or a group of congregants) go to get the outcome they feel is correct?"… I say that they WILL go so far as they can...throwing caution to the wind and throwing any and all who disagree under the bus to get what THEY want and what THEY believe is right. Which is funny because I believe, if I read correctly, this is exactly what they are accusing the pastors and people like Rick Warren of doing. I have now seen it first hand. It has nothing to do with Purpose Driven anything...it has everything to do with submitting to authority. How do you expect a person to fall under church discipline or authority who doesn’t believe that the church does in fact have any authority over them. “who are YOU to tell ME what to do.?”

    And “How much of this is fueled by a ‘this is MY church’, ‘this is OUR church’ type thing?” ...I believe all of it. We are witness to the beginnings of the battle of the generational gap. This is a culture war taking place on Holy Ground. Two sides are clashing...one who wants to go to church… their church done their way...just like it has always been...and another that desires to be the church...as they struggle to define just exactly what that means.

  • Posted by

    people, lets not forget the context, a pastor who was commiting incest, he should have been arrested and thrown in jail.  The problem is again we have another example of the corruption, immorality, and sickness that is prevasive within the american church today.  As long as we keep insisting on hiring pastors for their charisma instead of the character, and programs instead of true discipleship, we will continue to reap what we have sown.  As long as we keep sowing “innovation” we will reap this shallow, sick, disgusting mess which is called church.  When is it time to leave?  its been time for a while now, and many christians are realzing that the institutional church can no longer be supported.  How many more messes do we have to endure before we realize the entire thing needs to be taken out back and put out of its misery!  Most pulipts are filled with nancy-boy preachers who don’t know what the gospel is about and are doing their secretaries, lying to their church and stealing money while justifying it all.  The institutional church needs to be abandoned for the failure that it has been for the last couple thousand years.  Pastors needs to all be put out of their jobs sitting around all week long on their duffs, and get REAL jobs.  People need to stop supporting and giving their money to keep these sick places functioning.  All ministry can be done with out the help of the institutional programs we call church and without one more penny put in the offering plate!

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