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Ingrid Gets It Right… (well, kind of…)

Orginally published on Thursday, October 26, 2006 at 10:09 AM
by Todd Rhoades

Ingrid Schlueter is a Christian Radio talk show host, and the main voice behind the blog Slice of Laodicea. To be honest, I disagree with nearly everything I read over at Slice, but yesterday Ingrid wrote a post that I think gets it right... well, pretty much right (with a couple of exceptions, of course!). I won't reprint her entire post (you can read it here at Slice), but Ingrid gave some of her testimony; and I really think it gives a glimpse of why she's proactive with what she does with Slice. Ingrid's premise is that the church today gets it all wrong. I disagree with that statement, but I do feel like I understand a bit of where she is coming from, as I had much of the same type of upbringing and church background that Ingrid did...

Ingrid shares much of her childhood, growing up in churches that were constantly in conflict.  Church splits, fights, and contention seemed to be all she witnessed as she grew up.  It was so bad that when she left for college, she rebelled; and soon found herself a single mother far from God.  Ingrid found her way back; but her past experiences (just as mine do) give her a unique perspective.  Here’s what Ingrid writes…

“The rebellion of Christians in the church today is hurting others. It isn’t just the false doctrine that is walking in that is causing damage. What a difference it would have made in my life if I could have met more real Christians somewhere along the way in my young life. I think often of what an impact it would have made to see what real reconciliation looked like between believers as I was growing up. What if we had been in a church where there wasn’t a row going on or if someone had befriended me in high school who was genuine and faithful and who walked with God? When we refuse to do right in how we treat others, it can have generational consequences in the lives of others. That’s why all of the conferences in the world, all the media efforts, all of the planning, all of the programs, and yes, all of the blogging against error in the church will be a waste of time, unless Christians begin to obey the Word of God in their own lives. I have seen first hand how sin destroys. Unless we can love each other, really care about the well-being of our brothers and sisters in Christ, we have nothing to offer the world. If Jesus Christ is not powerful enough in our lives to heal broken relationships with other Christians than we need to shut up about His power to save souls. One of the reasons I pulled the comment section on this site is just that. While many had good things to say, the near constant bickering, the condemning, the ructions over minor issues unrelated to salvation was like a never ending nightmare. At one point, a zealous reader was actively fomenting opposition to those who post here at Slice and making personal attacks about our integrity. It was a frank testimony that while we claim to have answers for a dying world, we can’t even get along with fellow believers. In short, we make Christianity a hoax. The world doesn’t need more bogus religion. It doesn’t need more dogma, more sectarianism and more slogans. It needs real Christians, humble, obedient, kind and tender hearted believers who love each other first before they try to share the message of the Gospel to the unsaved. If the Gospel does not change our relationships, it is worthless. We become clanging cymbals, loud gongs, garbage can lids crashed together. If we can’t love our brothers and sisters, even those who sometimes disagree with us, how can we love God? We can’t.”

I definitely agree with much of what she says in this paragraph.  But I disagree with what got her to this point.  She starts her post with a rail against “yet another leadership conference sponsored by Willow Creek.” She says, “Thousands upon thousands of leaders will get together and hear hip, new ideas to “reach the world” for Christ. Everyone is networking, and sharing ideas and strategies and marketing savvy in their quest to evangelize everyone. Frankly, I believe that they can pull the plug on the electronic media, re-box all the how-to books, send everyone home, turn out the lights and lock the door. They will be doing the Kingdom of Christ a favor.”

I, for one, am glad there are people out there that are encouraging, networking, and training leaders.  It seems there wasn’t much of that in my childhood years for church leaders.  And to suggest that someone ‘pull the plug’ and that they would do the Kingdom a favor is a little over the top.

While I agree with Ingrid’s first paragraph, it seems that she takes a giant leap in how and why she got there.  Truth be told, it wasn’t the innovative, seeker-sensitve, hula-worship loving church had had it all wrong in her childhood (it was actually the legalistic, Bob Jonesish type church of her and my upbringing that showed the lack of love and initiated much of the conflict).  It is true that the churches that Ingrid and I grew up in didn’t grow alot of ‘real Christians’; but we sure did have a lot of Ingrids and Todds who are lucky to have survived that environment.  Ingrid made it back into the fold; many of my friends did not; and I would agree that the church of my upbringing did have it all wrong in many ways.

And that’s probably where Ingrid and I separate paths.  Even though our background is very much the same; we ended up in different places today; but both profoundly shaped by our past.  Both abhoring conflict.  Both extremely dedicated to Christ and empowering leaders in His church.  But somehow, I think the church of my childhood got a lot of things wrong and am excited about many things happening in today’s churches; meanwhile Ingrid is working within the culture of that church we grew up in saying that today’s churches are the ones getting it wrong, all the while upset when the comments on her own site are too full of conflict (probably from all us innovative folks) Our philosophies and ways of doing it couldn’t be different.

Many have criticized Slice for taking the comments section off their site.  According to Ingrid, “While many had good things to say, the near constant bickering, the condemning, the ructions over minor issues unrelated to salvation was like a never ending nightmare.” It sounds like Slice was starting to take on something that she was fighting to get away from in her past… conflict, condemning and ructions over minor issues unrelated to salvation.  That’s why I disagree with so much on Slice in the first place… most of what they write about is what they see as the problem, rather than the solution.

And that’s why I’m excited to see and report on so many ways that today’s churches are connecting with the lost and dying with the message of Christ!

Could it be that Slice is taking on much more of the role of Ingrid’s childhood churches; full of conflict and condemnation; and in the heat of the moment; becoming that clanging symbol?  Please don’t take that as a put down or criticism… It’s a risk for all of us; here at MMI as well for sure.

Does the church of today get it all wrong, as Ingrid suggests?  No, I don’t think so… I think there are many dedicated servants out there doing their best to reach souls for the Kingdom (just like in the days when Ingrid and I were growing up). And they will make mistakes, just like those leaders from our generations did.  Some today don’t fit the narrow settings that we grew up with; but I think that’s ok.  Ingrid and I could debate all day on why or why not that’s a good thing, then we’re back to the clanging cymbal thing.  I do agree when she writes that the world “Needs real Christians, humble, obedient, kind and tender hearted believers who love each other first before they try to share the message of the Gospel to the unsaved. If the Gospel does not change our relationships, it is worthless. We become clanging cymbals, loud gongs, garbage can lids crashed together. If we can’t love our brothers and sisters, even those who sometimes disagree with us, how can we love God? We can’t.”

To that, I say… “Amen!”

Todd


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  There are 27 Comments:

  • Posted by Randy Ehle

    On the negative comments that Slice tended to receive: I haven’t spent a lot of time over at Slice, but my impression is that it is primarily an “anti-” blog; i.e., much of what is written there is a rail against something going on elsewhere in the kingdom of God (a la against “another” WC conference).  You reap what you sow.  When you plant those kinds of seeds, you’re going to get comments made in kind...negative, oppositional ones.  Isn’t that why so many people outside the kingdom are negative on “Christians” - they see us bickering among each other and campaigning against whatever we’re against, and we are perceived (all-too-rightly so) as being very negative.

    On the things Jesus seemed to be “against”: I’ve noticed that Jesus’ words were most compassionate when he was addressing those who seemed to be most sinful (e.g., the woman caught in adultery; he was compassionate - “neither do I condemn you” but at the same time he was firm - “go and sin no more").  His harshest words seemed to be directed at the religious leaders ("you whitewashed tombs!").  But it strikes me that I can’t think of many occasions, if any, when Jesus focused on what we might call “doctrinal” issues; his condemnation of the Jews was targeted at their behaviors and self-inflicted rules and regulations that placed such an unattainable burden on everyone.  Yet our tendency, as Christians, is to focus on right belief so much that we neglect the call to right living.  That’s why I so love Jesus answer when asked about the greatest commandment: “Love God, love your neighbor; everything else hangs on these two.”

    Maybe (and I recognize the heretical potential in what I’m about to say), but just maybe it matters more how we live out those two commandments than whether we win people to our view on origins and eschatology, baptism and communion...or even eternal security or limited atonement.

  • Posted by

    Randy, first just let me say that it’s good to see you posting again, and I really liked your article, too, although I am not a pastor myself.  When you say, “Maybe (and I recognize the heretical potential in what I’m about to say), but just maybe it matters more how we live out those two commandments than whether we win people to our view on origins and eschatology, baptism and communion...or even eternal security or limited atonement. “ I couldn’t agree more.  I don’t think it’s heretical at all.  Rather the reverse, to say it matters more to win people over to the following views than how we live out the two greatest commandments, would seem much more heretical to me.  It sounds, too, like the people Ingrid encountered in her growing up years really had their priorities reversed.

  • Posted by

    I’ve never been over to “Slice” so I can’t comment on that.  I did agree with a lot of what Ingrid said especially that it’s about time Christians not only believe the Bible but truly live it out too.  Especially the parts about putting others’ interests ahead of our own, forgiveness and reconciliation.  On the other hand although I’m sure many have left the Church or rebelled because of what they see going on there (or don’t see), I also think people (especially teens) will just do what ever they want to do and use whatever excuse they can to justify it.  For example I know several ‘prodigals’ from good Christian families in our church and the fact is we’ve never had a church split and there’s very little bickering that I know of.  In fact we emphsize practical Christian living.  Of course we’re not perfect - what church is?- but people will walk away from Christ no matter what.  For those of us who’ve never rebelled or doubted the Lord’s hand in our life that’s hard to understand but it’s gg to continue to happen no matter what.  That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t address issues as we see them arise - I just don’t think there’s something you can point to and say - THAT’s the problem.  My two cents

  • Posted by Linda

    Great post Todd!  I agree about finding solutions rather than going in circles with the problem.  As a teen I found God but it only lasted a year.  I used the hypocrisy of a church mentor as an excuse to leave the church because frankly I wanted to sin.

    I don’t think anyone gets it right all the time.  As you said in a previous post you have had to say you were wrong and so have I.  I love how the scriptures say, Forgive US OUR trespasses.  Last week our pastor started the service by having people look at someone they don’t know and saying, “You have hidden sin in your life.” Everyone laughed because it’s true.  We preach a message of forgiveness of sins and then we point out all the sinners.  My pastor said he’d always error on the side of grace.  I’ve seen him ask people to sit out being a leader so we do deal with sin.

    I like Ingrid, she’s real smart and could learn from her but there is such an attitude of, “I’m all right and you’re all wrong” attitude.  We all need some correction.

  • Posted by Ernie

    Excellent post!  I also grew up in that legalistic, condemning church atmosphere.  I have always seen Slice as one of those type of sites as well.  It surprises me to hear Ingrid seem to be on opposite ends of the spectrum in the same post.  She starts out legalistic and condemning and ends up wanting Christians to love each other as we should.  That is how the world knows we are disciples of Jesus Christ because of our love for each other and not picking out every thing a church or pastor does and tearing it apart.

    Randy, I think you are absolutely correct.  We can’t of ourselves “win” anyone to Christ.  We can’t change anyone’s mind on doctrine.  That is the job of the Holy Spirit.  We are commanded to love God, love others and make disciples.  All of that is lived out.

  • Posted by

    I agree with you Randy, regarding the things Jesus seemed to be against, and might take it a bit further.  It seems to me that the worst sinners were often the heroes in Jesus parables or interactions with people, those He seems to put forth as the ones we should learn from and whose examples we should follow.  The prostitutes who washed His feet with her tears or fine perfume at the dinner party at the home of Simon the Pharisee.  Or Zacchaeus the cheating tax collector.  Is there something we should be learning from the “sinner” around us?  Could it be that there is a reason, besides our influence on the sinner, that Jesus would want us rubbing shoulders with heathens and pagans?

    Wendi

  • Posted by

    I especially like this comment from Ingrid. “If the Gospel does not change our relationships, it is worthless.” That is certainly how it looks to the world.

    But it is true that with all the “againsts” she posts, she shouldn’t be terribly surprised at the bickering in the comments. Not sure removing the comments section was the thing to do though. I get more from the comments and reactions here at MMI than I do from the articles sometimes…

  • I think the main point is that the church needs to practice love and truth.  The old fundie churches are great on truth, but often lacked love.  Today, many of the larger churches diminish (not erase) truth (doctrine) for the sake of love (and getting big attendance-- let’s all get along… you get along by not arguing, so let’s not discuss doctrine too much).

    It looks to me like going off on either side (truth or love) too much.  We need the balance.

    Ingrid didn’t like the comments, so she punted.  It’s easy to give up.

    I think the best way is to try to get people to practice love and truth. The way you can do that on a blog is to moderate it.  When someone is out of line, warn them a few times, then ban them if they don’t get it.  There’s no excuse to be rude.  However, you also need to tolerate other opinions, even if they are 180 degrees different of yours.  That’s the love part-- tolerating difference, and trying to educate through it, respectably.

    1 Peter 4:11 (a great memory verse):
    If anyone speaks, let him speak as one speaking the very words of God.

    ...Bernie

  • Posted by

    I understand what Todd is saying about this particular article, but the tone of this article is not Ingrid’s usual tone.

    Ingrid says, “Unless we can love each other, really care about the well-being of our brothers and sisters in Christ, we have nothing to offer the world.” This is not her usual tone at Slice of Laodicea, or the tone of almost everything else I have read at Slice.

    Most of what I have read at Slice does not reflect the love she speaks about here.  Most of what I’ve read there is intolerant and condemning of other Christians.  The site does not seem to be about empowering ministry but rather it is about tearing down other ministries.

    Ingrid says she stopped allowing comments because “the near constant bickering, the condemning, the ructions over minor issues unrelated to salvation was like a never ending nightmare.” You reap what you sow, if you run a negative blog you’re going to get a lot of negative comments.  If you constantly attack other people you’re going to get defensive comments.

    That’s what I really like about MMI, it’s about empowering ministry. Some of the comments get negative, that’s the risk you run by allowing comments, but the posts are positive or informative, not negative attacks on other ministries.

  • Posted by Todd Rhoades

    DanielR,

    You are correct.  For a second there, I did see a glimmer of hope.  Then the posts for later that day and the next day on Slice brought me back to reality:

    --a post saying 95% of ‘conversions’ are ‘backsliders’ within a year
    --a ‘biblical critique’ of the emergent movement
    --a post on Mark Driscoll’s language
    --a post on Granger’s youth group going to see “Wicked”
    --one on “Satan’s Ecumenical Church of Deceit.”
    --another youth group performing an “American Idol” parody
    --a post on a ‘purpose driven poker ministry’
    --yet another post about the dangers of Rob Bell

    This is just in the last 2 days… does Ingrid think ALL of these topics are issues that are vitally related to Salvation?!

    My opinion (and mine only)… Slice has become what she abhored in her childhood.  Critical, damning, and conflict-driven.  And I wonder if her post we’re talking about here is the first little crack in the armor that it’s starting to get to her.

    I’m much rather spend my time equipping leaders to do the good work than bombarding them with things to complain about and stay away from.  What a dismal view on life and ministry.  And what a burden to feel like you have to expose everything from youth groups to the horns growing on Rob Bell’s head.

    Todd

  • Posted by Leonard

    When God created Adam and Eve he said the two will become one, the problems started when they tried to decide which one.  That is the age old history of conflict.  Imagine if blogging was available when Jesus was on earth, the negative words would have never stopped.  “I met Jesus the other day, didn’t like the way he rushed through the crowd.  If you claim to be the Son of God you should at least give a little time to everyone.” Or maybe; “Jesus was not very kind to the Pharisees again; he really needs to take lessons in etiquette.” How about; “Jesus wasted another opportunity to set people free today, he could have taken out a roman Garrison, but instead healed the centurion’s servant.” Or “Jesus allowed wasted resources today as costly ointment was poured over his feet” Wait, that one was written. 

    Point is it that at slice and some other places what is done, written or said could actually be claimed as love were it not for the seeming lack of humility. Humility is what God uses to open the door for love to actually become real in another’s life.  It is what keeps us out of the “pronouncement of truth” into the marriage of “truth and Grace” Jesus came full of Grace and Truth by living among us.  Philippians 2 says that was and is ultimate humility.  What Jesus did fully represented the Father. 

    I see this clearly because it is easy for me to give truth with no grace and then call the truth love.  It is easy for me to blast others who are not the “ONE” (see first paragraph.) Humility is not something God will do to you or give you.  He might humiliate you but he will not humble you.  Humility is a choice.  Many people (insert my name here) have been humiliated only to be more stubborn and prideful, or just plain preoccupied with self.  We have to choose humility.  My struggle with blogging is that it sometimes feed my pride.  I want people to know how smart I am instead of blessing others or learning from others. I am not saying we cannot be bold or blunt, have opinions or even express with passion thoughts, but humility always leaves room.  Room for others who are different, room for others who are wounded, room for others who are smarter, room for ourselves to be wrong and most importantly, room for the Holy Spirit to change, grow and unite us.  Thanks for you folks who leave that room.

  • Posted by

    Thanks DanielR and Leonard.

    Leonard said:

    [Humility is not something God will do to you or give you.  He might humiliate you but he will not humble you.  Humility is a choice.]

    and

    [My struggle with blogging is that it sometimes feed my pride.  I want people to know how smart I am instead of blessing others or learning from others.]

    I love these comments and am challenged by them.  Perhaps these are the greatest challenges for all of time and history, engaging the world without pride and with humility.  Sad thing is, without these, is anything even close to an image of Jesus seen through us?  IMO these characteristics often surface here on MMI, even in the expressing of different views and opinions.

    Wendi

  • Posted by

    Todd you questioned the veracity of this statement:

    --a post saying 95% of ‘conversions’ are ‘backsliders’ within a year

    Those are the numbers from a wide range of “evangelistic” efforts, be they the AG or any number of Revival efforts or missionary trips - that tragic result within a year, over 90% has been far too consistent. One can look at that and do a number of things:
    - question the validity of the numbers and exit the realm of reality and enter the realm of suggestion.
    - surmise that God hasn’t the power to keep people faithful after He has revealed Himself to them and gloriously saved them and indwelt them with His Spirit, thus rendering God less than All-powerful and man able to walk away from God contradicting what Jesus said in John 6 and what Paul said in 2 Tim. 1.
    - or recognize that those individuals were false converts as Jesus described in the Parable of the Sower, recognize that it is important that we follow the examples laid out in generations before us where the law was used rightly to convict the sinner of their helplessness and making the gospel truly “Good News” - enlightening the hearer to the need for repentance from sin and unrighteousness and a pursuit of holiness, not self-righteousness, but genuine holiness.
    To tell someone that they’ve simply back-slidden when they never slid forward in the first place leaves one to wonder - what will make it “stick” this time? God said in Is. 66:1-2 what He seeks and what type of a church He will bless - as it is written in vs. 2: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
    What would help to lower the numbers in a stat like that would be for some “evangelists” to humble themselves enough to evaluate the message they are presenting and get back to a Biblical presentation of the plan of Salvation, not some story to get a decision and then expect the Holy Spirit to fill in the blanks.
    Discernment ministries, like Slice, Old Truth, Apprising Ministries, etc… are to discern truth from lies, false movements from movements of God Almighty. They were needed back in the Apostolic age and are desperately needed today. Just a few thoughts...hope they last…

  • Posted by Leonard

    John 3:36
    If you read Todd’s statement you would find that he did not question the veracity of the statements but simply used the statements to question if there were any change at all in the writer of slice.

  • Posted by

    John 3:36:

    In addition to questioning any possible (and unlikely) change in Ingrid’s posture, as Leonard said, I believe Todd was doing two other things when he recapped the SOL end of week posts.  First, I think he was questioning how Ingrid saw how each of these items was related to salvation, because she seemed to be indicating that anything which is not, is thus not worthy of the bickering and infighting she’d been experiencing on her blog.  A bit like the pot calling the kettle black, as I see it. Second, he questioned the kingdom value of her relentless efforts to expose every flaw she (personally) finds within evangelical Christendom . . .

    Todd says: [I’d much rather spend my time equipping leaders to do the good work than bombarding them with things to complain about and stay away from.  What a dismal view on life and ministry.]

    Me too Todd!!!

    When Jesus told the parable of the sower (the example you use), I don’t believe He intended that His hearers look around, pointing their fingers at others, questioning what kind of soil everyone was or how effectively they had planted seeds.  Rather, I believe He intended that His hearers look into their own hearts, examine whether their own heart represented good and receptive soil and that each hearer examine their own efforts to produce good kingdom fruit. 

    Be offering this parable, you offer us a good reminder to reflect on the condition of OUR OWN soil and the kingdom fruits OUR OWN seed casting has produced.  Neither you nor Ingrid provide a valid biblical reason for questioning the legitimacy of conversions God has given us no part of in the first place. As I see it, the only soil I have any biblical right to examine is on my own farm.  How are you doing farmer?

    Wendi

  • Posted by Todd Rhoades

    You bring up an interesting point there Wendy.  The same camp that has been so against any innovative church (like Perry’s or Granger) counting attendance figures or numbers of decisions for Christ (because we can do nothing in our power to save) are the first ones to pull out a figure like 95% aren’t really saved.

    Somehow I find it funny that the very same people who say we shouldn’t measure our effectiveness by numbers are the ones who are measuring our ineffectiveness by numbers or percentages.

    For some reason… that makes me laugh out loud.  smile

    Todd

  • Posted by

    Todd writes “Somehow I find it funny that the very same people who say we shouldn’t measure our effectiveness by numbers are the ones who are measuring our ineffectiveness by numbers or percentages.” It’s also possible that people just love the sound of their own voice. I’m not saying Ingrid is that person, but the fact that she has cut off comments is telling… Now anyone who finds her site can just read every word she posts as if it were gospel.

    I’d love Ingrid to chime in on this one. Ingrid, are you reading?

  • Posted by

    I really hesitated before commenting, but it seems that this specific post has pitted two webblogs against each other.  I didn’t realize that it was a competition.  It might be best to leave all of Slice off than to stir up dissension by mixing the batch and lighting the match.

  • Posted by

    I wonder, is there not room in the Christian community for “Slice?” Though none of you have said it, I believe that if Ingrid’s “Slice” was to disappear from the blog world, most of you would see that as a plus for our the cause of Christ. If I judge to harshly, please forgive me.

    I pastor a rural Church in the isolated wheat fields of Oregon. And just about the only way for me to know what is going on [good or bad--positive or negative] in the Christian world is to read many Christian blogs that come from many perspectives. For me, I see “Slice” as an information disseminator. After I have received the information it is my responciblity to wade through it, check out the validity of it, then do whatever I may do with it.

    Charles Spurgeon had a bit of the “Slice” in him. It is to bad more Christians didn’t pay more attention to his warning, to some of the modernism, that was invading the Church under the banner of progress. There is almost nothing left of the Church in Spurgeon’s homeland.

    DanielR writes: “Most of what I’ve read there is intolerant and condemning of other Christians.” My reply to DanielR’s sentence is this [It will go over like a lead balloon]: Some Christians need to be condemned. I see condemned as acting our 2 Timothy 3:16, [Daniel may see it differently].

    To place the word “intolerant” upon the back of a fellow Christian is a dangerous game. If any of you believe John 14:6, and teach it as absolute truth, you are labeled as “intolerant” by much of the World. We have allowed the world to make the word “intolerant” an ugly word. I dare say that our Lord can be very “intolerant.” Not too many survivors after the flood. Sodom didn’t receive tolerance forever. Anania and Sapphira.... Jesus’ tolerance with Laodicea had it’s limit. Jesus says in Matthew 7:22, “Many will say to me on that day,’Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in you name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers.’” Notice, Jesus never said they didn’t do what they said they did. He, however, was condeming and intolerant or them in spite of all they did. Maybe, just maybe Ingrid is pointing out some of those people to us.

    Finally, is there not someone you can think of, who is preaching from a pulpit today, that may be needing to be condemned or not tolerated? Don’t you believe that if you see it that it is your responciblity to point it out?

    As I reread this post, I am tempted to delete it. It is poorly written and all over the place. But I will chance it and see the results. HEAR ME: if I receive criticism, rebukes, or correction, I will NOT respond in a negative way. I may ask you a question, but will NOT attack.

    In Christ,
    fishon

  • Posted by Leonard

    Fishon,
    You make some valid statements about how much room there is in the Christian Community for Slice but I would say the question should be aimed in another direction though.  There seems to be little room for RW, Rob Bell and many others over there.  I think that is the point here of the post in the first place.  The very thing Ingrid detested as a child and the very thing she attributes her rebellion to, is the very thing she has embraced in tone and rhetoric. 

    To me, the people at slice and other places spend so much time as watchdogs over people with whom they disagree that they have lost the objectivity to see the issues clearly anymore.  Every statement is combed through looking for error; every misstatement is judged and compounded by misinterpretations or places upon which people simply disagree.  Brothers in Christ are vilified and castigated.  We have moved from the question of am I my brother’s keeper to the proclamation; I am a watchdog over every person I disagree with.  With our sermons and messages being recorded, put on the web in pod-casts, we are all subject to this scrutiny.  I am sure if someone logged on to my churches web-site they would find my errors and could twist my words into something I do not teach or believe. 

    I think this scrutiny is leading us down a path of distraction in the kingdom of God.  It is causing us to wrestle with flesh and blood when this really is not our struggle.

  • Posted by Daniel

    My personal frustration with the brothers and sisters at Slice is that they define Christianity very narrowly.  To be orthodox, at SoL, is to be conservative, Replublican and a certain brand of Reformed.  Question ‘Limited Atonement’, and you might as well set yourself on fire for apostacy (and I’m only slightly exaggerating). 
    IF you agree with the folks at Slice that that‘s Christianity, then yes, everything else they have to say about the Emerging Church apostacy and the evils of PDL will follow.
    If one operates under a different paradigm however, then the conclusions do not follow, and all you’re left with is what comes across as fundamentalistic maliciousness (’benefit of the doubt’ is not the usual SoL modus operandi...).
    My two cents.
    -Daniel-

  • Posted by matt

    I definitely appreciate your comment fishon.  And I stand guilty as charged as one who has been tempted to think the Christian cause would be better off without Slice, although not because it puts a magnifying lense up to certain ministries.

    I am all for accountability and discernment.  But I am 100% against bitterness.

    Almost every post I read on Slice (and I do so just about every day to keep myself sharp) goes out of its way not only to point a finger at perceived wrong-doing, but then practically equate the advocate of the ministry with Satan.  Very common terms used by every Slice columnist include “The Ecumenical Church of Deceipt” in reference to the emerging church as well as “Purpose Driven Madness” in reference to Rick Warren’s giga-ministry.  Not exactly uplifting terms for kingdom builders.

    I actually have issues with both of the forementioned movements.  I think the emerging movement is really on shaky ground.  There is some real positives to it, but it makes me nervous if its implications are taken too far.  As for PD/SS movements, I believe that Warren, Hybels, Young Jr, etc are all pretty sound in their books, it’s just that when some people put this methodology into practice, they get so excited about growing a large church by bringing in unchurched and dead-churched that they devote all their time to this and none to discipleship...which is emphasized just as equally as evangelism with the movement’s “fathers.”

    At the same time, I can definitely find many things in which to praise and encourage in both of these movements and recognize that most are doing FAR more good than any potential harm they might cause.  And I can constructively criticize without feeling the need to tear down leaders who have no authority over me.

    Unfortunately, this is not the case at Slice and other “Apprising Ministry” blogs.  They get bent out of shape about Rick Warren spending resources to combat AIDS.  I didn’t realize that was a bad thing.  There was even a post on there a few months back about an abandoned abortion clinic that was recently found.  Yet somehow, it was Rick Warren’s fault because he “ignores” domestic issues like this.  I think the title was called, “Need a Purpose, Mr. Warren?” I wish I was kidding.

    Now, how ridiculous is that?

    I just have a hard time believing that blogs like this one serve any purpose whatsoever in building the Kingdom.  I’m a bit of a southern boy, and so I was taught something that I think holds true even biblically:

    Even if you’re right, if you’re rude, you’re still wrong.

  • Posted by

    I see your point Fishon, about whether there is a place for SoL and other sites like it, but I have to agree with Leonard when he said:

    [To me, the people at slice and other places spend so much time as watchdogs over people with whom they disagree that they have lost the objectivity to see the issues clearly anymore.  Every statement is combed through looking for error; every misstatement is judged and compounded by misinterpretations or places upon which people simply disagree.  Brothers in Christ are vilified and castigated.]

    And

    [I think this scrutiny is leading us down a path of distraction in the kingdom of God.  It is causing us to wrestle with flesh and blood when this really is not our struggle.]

    IMO, there is a place for SoL just like there was a place in Jesus world for the Pharisees, for us to observe as an example how getting off mission, losing our kingdom focus leads to legalism and complete ineffectiveness. 

    I would love to challenge SoL to go for one week posting only great examples of what’s working.  These might not be articles about the kind of ministry practices I am prone to look for, but I wonder what would happen if for one week every article had to be only about great and effective stuff, and any article that included even the slightest criticism would be disallowed.  Personally, I don’t think Ingrid could do it.

    Wendi

  • Posted by

    This if fishon, and I have to say that you who disagree with me are just about the MOST gracious brothers and sisters in Christ I have run across in a blog discussion. I real mean that.

    I agree, Wendi, with your statement: “Every statement is combed through looking for error; every misstatement is judged and compounded by misinterpretations or places upon which people simply disagree.  Brothers in Christ are vilified and castigated,”

    I have the habit of taking what I agree with and fileing it, and the rest, discarding. However, your’s, Matt, Daniel, and Leonard’s points are well taken. I think, no, I know I would not like Ingrid to critic my sermons. I think she would agree with most of what I preach, but if she was to take what little she found not to her liking and write only about it, well....

    Matt, Daniel, Leonard, and Wendi, thank you for your responces. I now understand your positions. I think you guys [Wendi, you are one of the guys: hehehe] would be fun to sit down and discuss, debate, and even argue our differences. It would be done in the spirit of: “Consider others better than yourselves...look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others” {Phil. 2:4-5}. 

    your brother in Christ,
    fishon [jerry]

  • Posted by

    fishon,

    I’m so GLAD you’ve found this diablog useful and helpful. It’s what I love about MMI, too. Perhaps we should have an MMI event somewhere where we DO all get together around a big table (with food of course) and just discuss stuff. How bout this, Todd. 2007 have the first annual MMI Innovative Ministry Forum… (I volunteer our church facility… so I don’t gotta drive nowhere… but I will drive if I must...)

    Blessings on you all!
    Peter

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