Hi All!

I am not gone.  Just had so many things to do for the last 2 days.  But my head is just spining with all that I have missed.

First to Jake - You make me weep!  I want to reach thru the computer and hug you.
Wendi - your Mr. Smith is fills me with compassion. 
Pastor Dave
I agree with Wendi. The male homosexuals seem to threaten you the most.  I weep for you.  As hard as your heart is at this time, I fear you will never be able to lead a man like Jake to the Lord and keep him in your church.  You are going to miss so much that the Lord has for you.  Remember Grace and Mercy!  The greatest commandment is to Love your neighbor. (It does not say but if he is gay you don’t have to) If you have not love.....  What does he tell us about judgment - remember you will be judged by your own measureing stick....  Judge not lest you be judged.  (Sorry I didn’t look each one up so I can give you the excact quote. and address.  These are things pulled from my head.  I hope God will be more mercyfull to you than you are to gays.

Back to the subject:  Chuck Smith,jr. has a great deal of compassion for gays.  At one point we had over 30 gays in our church.  He taught them the scriptures - many became christians.  When he spoke of the only marriage that is blessed by God is a marriage between a man and a woman.  Many left, a very few stayed.  No one told them to leave.  Only God knows what is in their hearts but first they heard the gospel.  This is the good news!  Chuck Jr wants to dialog with them the only thing is that gays need to understand not to define who they are by their sexuality,

Chuck Sr.’s church has gone into the gay community and tried to tell them to repent.  The message is not wrong but it just drives them away from Christianity and that’s not what we want.
This is the difference between Sr. and Jr. church.
In Love, Gini

Jake -

some misunderstanding here - I was talking about tasting the sin of lustful thought toward people of your own gender, I did understand what you had previously stated about your life of physical purity.  And - I for one a certain that our sexual decisions begin long before puberty.  That is a topic much deeper that this blog or my time will allow.  Again - not that I have all the answers.

And - just because you are not an actual threat to me practically does not mean that I do not feel threatened even as the Christians did around the Apostle Paul shortly after his conversion.

I’m not trying to hurt you.  I was not and am not.  I’m blogging to get reaction to my take on the scripture.  Romans one describes homosexualality as a very intense and mature sin that results among humanity as God releases us in respone to our rejection of him.  Whether this is a corporate curse on humanity or a personal curse on an individual - I am not sure.  I still do not understand the profit in you being known as that “good Christian man who is naturally attracted to boys” when the Bible says that this kind of attraction is not natural.

I want to believe your story.  It has serious ramifications if it is unadulterated truth.  Not saying that you are trying to deceive me, but I understand that various world views and paradigms (spelling) affect people’s perceptions of reality.  Mine his bent in a very intense way against sexual vice because of my cultural upbringing and theological heretage.  I still stand on the idea that soceity would be better if there was such a stigma on gay feelings that people would be terrified of having them much less sharing them.  As it is soceity is being desensetized to it and is beginning to accept it as normal.  I do not want my kids/grandkids growing up in Sodom - though we seem to be close already sometimes.

By the way - I did serve on the staff with a man who was more involved than you in that type sin earlier in his life.  But it was not open for public discussion.  And - with those who did know about it - I saw where it hurt our ministry time and time again - though he appeared to be truly whole.

Please write again - you are being heard and I am not unmovable intellectually - though I may sound like it.  I just have to be sure of something to shift…

Thanks for your lengthy explination.

wendi-

point taken on the political thing…

Actually - I am not a political pastor.  I intentionally leave politics alone as much as possible.  I am in the gospel ministry not the political ministry. 

That is why I would simply remove my kids from the school system that allows gay teachers.

The petition - take it or leave it.  There is certainly nothing wrong with signing it.  If a memeber asked - as I said earlier - I would say, sure, go ahead.  Let your position be known.

My mesage on homosexuality was not about politice - but about sin…

Pastor Dave says,"I have already had a male come to me for help on this issue.  I shared what the Bible says - I did not share my personal aversion (not on purpose anyway) with the individual.  I restrained my natural desire to reach for the garbage can and hurl.  He is still in church.”

and

“Nevertheless - you are right.  I am sharing my personal feelings also - as well as my theology on the issue.  I hesitate to work on those feelings when they seem so akin to God’s.  HE will save anyone from any sin - but they are ugly to him.  Rather than adjusting my aversion to gay behavior - perhaps we should all work on beefing up our aversion to all sin”

Pastor Dave, Jake & Wendi seem to have wisely left this conversation, but, call me a glutton for punishment, I feel that your thoughts about the nature of God really need to be addressed here.  When Jesus approached the woman at the well, knowing full well her story and her sin, did he do his best to control his gag reflex?  No, he asked her, yes, asked her for a cup of water.  The symbolism in that act cannot be missed.  By so doing, he said to her that what she had to offer was valuable—and he was humble enough to receive it.  In so doing, she became receptive to a conversation with him about her life that ended up not only impacting her, but her entire community.  Jesus is God, so his holy aversion to her sin cannot be overstated—but neither could his compassion for the hurt he saw in her life.  And by the way, he is the one that brought the subject of her sin up, not her, which tells us that it is in fact okay, and yes, even necessary to talk about the sin in our lives, so that we can shine the light of truth and love on it, and come to healing and wholeness.

Pastor Dave, how do you interact with obese people?  Would suppressing your gag reflex when you talk to them make them feel that their sin of gluttony isn’t important?  Would it legitimize their gluttonous agenda?  If you are going to take this approach to one sin, why not apply it across the board?  Make all sinners feel unwelcome!

Jake has decided to step out of this convo and I will shortly follow.  My last comment will be towards Dave’s (implied) last question:

“I am honestly trying to understand the supposed advantage of intentionlly trying to make gay people feel more welcome, accepted and understood.  To me it only solidifies their sense of ligitimacy.”

Reaching out to Jake did not make him feel ligitimate in “being gay.” On the contrary, it raised him to walk upright depsite his temptations.  The fact that those temptations still rear their heads every now and again does not define him as a person, nor is it anything but normal.  Dave, I’m assuming you’re married.  And since we’re both guys, we both know that marriage does not mean that you are no longer tempted to lust after other women.  We’d just be fooling ourselves to believe that.  But does that make you an adulteror?  Temptation is not sin.  Even Jesus was tempted in the desert by Lucifer and refused it.  Jake is tempted by many things...homosexual desires being only one.  He refuses it.  But the fact that he is tempted does not mean he is living in sin.

Jake does not spout any pro-gay agenda.  He has even vehemently spoken out against gay marriage.  He is not trying to ligitimize anything.  He’s not saying it’s ok to like guys and pursue relationships with them.  He acknowledges it as something that Satan has perverted and twisted in man’s mind.

There’s quite a difference here.

Matt, I think I shall follow suit quite promptly as well.
Pastor Dave, you said “Being obese is never mentioned as an abomination to God.  Being gay is mentioned in the Bible as being an abomination to God.” Bypassing your thoughts on obesity (I really do think you failed to interact with my question to the fullest), might I point out that being ‘gay’ is nowhere mentionned in scripture.  Gay sex is certainly mentionned, but homosexuality, as an orientation is NEVER mentionned.  If you’re willing not to judge obese people because you have no way of knowing whether or not they’re in fact gluttonous, perhaps you should refrain from judging gay people since you have no way of knowing whether or not they’re in fact engaging in homosexual sex.
My two cents.
-Daniel-

Pastor Dave,

In regard to the petition to get rid of the gay teacher at my son’s school, you most certainly DID NOT say (in response to my question) that you’d advise a member of your church to “take it or leave it” (as you said above).  Rather, you said:

[And - sign the petition and start new ones for the adulterous heterosexuals in the system…]

You see, your personal prejudices against people who are gay by persuasion and/or living pagan lives is driving you to desire that all “sinners” ostracized from society.  You believe (I guess) that the way reach someone for Christ, who is caught in some kind of sin, is to punish them by taking from them their chosen vocation.  When did Jesus use this methodology?

I understand (though disagree with) your separatist attitude, but you can’t have it both ways.  If you believe that God is calling you and your church and your family to live separately, then send your kids to a Christian school, shop at Christian stores, go to Christian restaurants, use Christian services, build Christian neighborhoods.  But it is wrong (and I don’t think in any way biblical) for you to insist that every public or secular entity adopt your (our) Christian value systems.  People in this society, and teachers in our schools, are Muslim, Mormon, Jewish, Buddhist, New-age, agnostic, atheist.  We can’t sign petitions to get everyone except the Christians out of our lives.

This morning Nora used the example of the woman at the well whom Jesus engaged.  She had come to the well alone in the afternoon because her community treated her exactly as you have suggested treating my son’s teacher (and the other “sinful” teachers at the school).  By engaging her, Jesus disavowed the way the community had treated her.  He empowered her to go back into her community and hold her head up, by embracing and affirming her . . . without condoning her sin in any way.  What Jesus did for this woman is what someone did for Jake . . . and based on your comments . . . something you never could do because you are far too conscious of the sin to claim that you love the sinner.  We are NEVER commanded to point out the sins of people outside of the faith.  In fact, Paul instructed the Corinthians NOT to do so (1 Cor. 5:12).  We are ONLY commanded to love them.  I’m sorry Pastor Dave, but nothing in your comments on this thread sound loving (ie. wanting to “hurl” when simply talking w/ someone who indicates they struggle w/ homosexual temptation). 

Gini indicated that INSIDE Chuck Jr.’s church they indeed teach about holiness and against the homosexual lifestyle, but they do so in the context of loving relationships.  People will feel uncomfortable, but they will also feel loved and embraced.  On the other hand, Chuck Sr.’s method is to send his people OUTSIDE to the homosexuals to tell them that they are sinners and call them to repentance.  If Gini’s observations about the methodology chosen by each, then IMO Jr.’s methods are more loving, more biblical, more Jesus-like.  It certainly explains their differences.  I’ll go with Chuck Jr.

Now I’m bowing out of this one too . . .

Wendi

Dave,

We are in complete agreement that temptation and lust are not one and the same.  One comes before the other.  But my point still stands that even though I am tempted to lust, the temptation itself does not put me in sin.  Same goes for Jake and whatever it is he struggles with on a particular day.  Same goes for you.

One last question and then I’ve had my MMI for the month:

If homosexuals are to be avoided as you avoid them, how will they ever know the love of Christ?  Or even the fear of Christ?  I certainly didn’t take the dirty man on the corner on my way to work seriously despite his vocal proclamations that Bush is the Antichrist.  I wasn’t too fearful.  Why should homosexuals (pagan or not) take us any more seriously when that sort of thing (calling down brimstone from the pulpit) is the extent of our effort (and yes, there is a time and a place for brimstone messages, lest anyone should call me too “feel good”.)?  Would you be the man you are today had not someone called you out of your sin by showing you the love of Christ?

Ok, so that was two questions.  Sue me.  Bye.

Hey Gini, you should sleep great at night.  Your comments restarted this lively discussion which had been posted nearly a month ago, drew several of us in (not just Pastor Dave), allowed us to hear Jake’s inspiring story.  And did you notice that though we may not have said “we agree with Gini,” those of us who were chiming in this past week were mostly in agreement with you, challenging Pastor Dave’s premise (which he invited by the way).  You convey your thoughts very well in my opinion.

Your comment, Dave, that Gini has “hardened her heart to the truth” betrays an attitude of self-righteousness.  The clear implication from your comment is that you have the truth and that she (and we who lean more toward her perspective) do not. I believe that this is the very posture which has the potential of alienating you from the very people you “claim” that you want to reach (I hope you’ll respond to Matt’s questions), and also alienates you from brothers and sisters in Christ.  You posture yourself as “holier” than the pagans who are still far from God, and also holier than the rest of us here.

Just my perception from the discussion.

Wendi (now I’m really out)

Well,

Where to begin?  I guess I could just threaten to leave this conversation like some are doing.  But, that would be intolerant and insensitive of me.  It seems puzzeling to me that those who “preach” toleration, compassion and patience for homosexuals the loudest are the ones who have the least of those traits for a young preacher seeking out challenges to his own thought patterns…

By the way - I was accused of having a hard heart before I laid out my opinion on that issue.  I do have a thick caloused heart when it comes to being patient and understanding with “In-your-face” sin.  The gay community is just that - “in-your-face” and loud in defiance against the truth.

Enough about that though - back to the real topic.  Is Jr. or Sr. using the better strategy?  May we consider righteous Lot? 

In II Peter 2 the Bibel says “God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, He spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:  (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness.

I have a strong scriptural bases for my position of separation.  LOT - IN SEEING AND HEARING - vexed his righteous soul with the FILTHY lifestyle of the wicked SODOMITES.  It ruined him and HIS FAMILY.  He should have satayed away from Sodom - but he was to tolerant.  And it affected him, even costing him by putting him in a situation where he was guilty of incest.

IN SEEING AND HEARING!!!  IN SEEING AND HEARING!!!! 

I simple want to avoid seeing and hearing the filth of the wicked.

You guys and me will never see eye to eye because you can’t understand one simple thing.  You are repulsed by certain sins too - whether it is canabilism, spousal abuse, rape, incest, racism or whatever - we all have different lists.  I do not recomend that you ease up and try to be more patient with these type folk.  All I am saying is that homosexuality is in the list with those things (in my opinion).  The reason you can’t fathom this is that you are already desensetized to it’s horror because of exposere to the vice.  I have not been desensatized (yet - though you are certainly working on me to that end) and plan to do all I can to avoid being hardened against purity in favor of “permissive tolerance.” It seems that the greatest virtue to some is almighty toleration.  Tolerance for those who will listen and learn - sure, I’m for that.  Tolerance for those who are in open rebellion against their Creator - no, absolutely not. 

I prayed this morning for God to give me direction on this issue.  As I was praying I said, “Lord, I do truly want to see many from the homosexual community come to you for forgiveness and life.  But I see this nation becoming another Sodom, please, for those who will not repent… I pray an imprecatory prayer that YOU would destroy them.”

It is not my place to carry out God’s wrath.  But, it is my calling to proclaim His truth - that is all I am trying to do.

You may not believe me - but you have helped me.  I have considered more seriously what strategy I will endorse in reaching the world with the gospel.  I am in favor of saving some with love and compassion (as Jude says) - and others - saving with fear, pulling them out of the fire, HATING EVEN THE GARMENT SPOTTED BY THE FLESH.

love you gini - my apologies for being curt.  I was not trying to hurt, just trying to make a point.  sleep well… you stand before God for your theology, not before me - I know you know that already, just trying to say i hear you… and you do express your thought well, i just don’t necessarily agree with them.  That is why we are (or were) all here in the first place - if we all agreed this conversation would have ended long ago.

woohoo - what a ride this has been…

bye wendi

Still studying and listening,
David