Let’s all pray for swift healing for Max!

To Mark,
While the transistion at First Dallas was a strained one, there were many contributing factors there, I have seen the pastor stay in several churches after retiring and it worked out fine.  In fact the retired pastors actually set an example of support and humility for the new pastor coming in.  It provided a time of transistion for bothr the church and both pastors.  I was the incoming pastor in one of these churches!!  I was thankful and blessed to have two retired pastors in the congregation!! They were a great source of wisdom, insight, and freindship.  They were very helpful to the “new pastor in town.”

Mark I do see your point about the potential problems/issues that could arise if Max were to stay at the church when the new pastor takes over.  I have seen churches go through the difficulties you speak of and understand why seminaries teach us to “get out of Dodge”.  My problem with that notion is that its pessemistic, chalked full of all the potential problems, but none of the potential benefits.  Not only that, but it tends to nullify the notion that it is God, not us who selects what church we should attend, who should pastor where and when and in what capacity and that God is able to keep and flourish His church in any given state. 

1Corithians 12:18 “But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.” When we understand that it’s God that places each of us in the church of His choosing and He alone knows what’s best for the Body there is no need to make such blanket statements/decisions that discount what the Word says and simply respond to what we’ve seen, experienced or what has historically happened in the church at large.

In this instance I could see the benefit of years of wisdom, support and mentorship available to the new pastor.  I can see Max learning how to be served by others, namely the new pastor; and him learning how to back away and be in a position under the authority of someone else.  (Boy does that take some growth). This will teach the church that all authority comes from God and we should be submitted to the one God places in the position of the senior pastor/minister.  They need to to be submitted to the new pastor because that’s what the Word says, not because the former pastor is long gone so they don’t have any choice.

The natural cycle of life is that we spend our life supporting and serving others and as we age we are positioned where we need to be served and need the support of others.  We don’t know what will happen with his health or how long this process will take.  Who knows it may get to the place where it is impossible for him to relocate.  I think all of this could very well teach the Body of Christ to keep their eyes on the Lord.  This very well could be a teaching opportunity and not an oversight.  This requires great teaching and that the pastor model what he preaches.

In closing let me say that I have seen/heard of many transitions similar to this one that have worked and been a blessing.  I have seen former pastors stay.  One case in particular (a church I attended) I saw the old pastor, mentor the new up and coming pastor and direct the members to the new pastor.  And things have flourished and after 20 years that old pastor is still there in his diminished role and under the authority of the new pastor and the church has changed pastors 4 times and grown from 600 people to over 4000 without a hitch because everyone listened to the Lord.  In another church I heard about, the former pastor didn’t feel led to leave, but decided not to attend the church for a year after the transition was made.  Then he returned and things have continued to go well many years later.

I don’t think pastors and church leadership should respond to such situations pessemistically,with fear of what could go wrong, but they should be led by the Holy Spirit and expect the Lord to build and influence His church to His glory. No offense, but leave or stay: that’s the Lord’s decision, not ours.

I don’t think that concept of pastors leaving a church for good is pessimistic at all.  It is realistic! It is based on the sin nature of all us, insecure and sinful forner pastors, lay people, and new pastors.  It is based on the natural understand that sheep know their shepherd’s voice and find it hard not to follow him, even when he is no longer their pastor. 

I have been in denominatonal leadership for 25 years.  We have had dozens of pastor retirements in my tenure.  One right now has the former pastor staging a comeback after running off the last 2 pastors.  And this pastor was a good man who got coaxed in by people opposed to change.  The best transitions are ones were the ones where the pastor left and stayed away,

It might be nice to experiment and see if the exceptions might be the rule.  But the carnage of torn up churches is not worth the risks or even the rewards.  The ruined reputations and the stain on the name of Christ are not worth the risks.  And this is not fear-based.  It is based upon an understanding of the depavity of man and a love for the church

To Mark,

What you’ve said is still based upon your experience, not on the Word.  To base the churches reality upon man’s sinful nature and corrupt pastors isn’t what God bases reality upon, the church maybe, but not God.  And surely He can’t be pleased with that. Obviously we should be aware of it, but we shouldn’t base what we do upon it, but upon the Spirit’s leading.  Unfortunately people who have problems hearing the voice of a new pastor actually (unbeknowst to them) have the larger problem of not being in line with the Word themselves.  I’m all for loyalty to pastors, but not at the expense of disobedience to the Word.  Jesus is the Shepherd we should obey/follow and the undershepherd (minister) we follow and obey at the leading of the Shepherd.  It sounds like in the churches/pastorates you’ve referred to the folks needed some shaking up.  They needed to be in a situation where they can see that they haven’t truly died and bowed their will to the Lord. 

I think God is in the process of cleaning house and calling us back to the understanding that the church is His not our, it’s His way not ours and we’re called to take up the cross and follow Him.  To be “realistic” but leave God’s will and power out of the equation by default leaves us in a state where we respond to situations based upon fear and then we call that realistic versus obeying the Spirit at all cost.  Your experiences simply show that the church needs to grow up and come up to where the Lord want them to be and unfortunately many aren’t in line with the Lord’s will and have dug their heels in for the long haul.  So dealing with this type of issue won’t happen without these types of controversies.  But that’s ok

It requires both pastors and churches who are led by the Holy Spirit.  If one group isn’t there will naturally be issues.  And especially for the pastors who are led by the Lord, it will take them standing in His power and might against a foolish congregation when it is God’s desire to release a congregation from their tradition and exercising their own will which opposes His.  But God is still in control in situations like this so even in this we do not have to fear.

We must be transformed by the renewing of our mind so that we get beyond what society or even the church considers realistic and start living like a Kingdom people whose idea of what is realistic is determined by God.  Maybe it’s realistic because that’s the way it’s happened, but I don’t believe that this is the reality the Lord desires and it will take couragous, spirit led people to lead the charge toward positive change.

Of course, this conversation we are having is based on experience, MIchael.  I have mine and you have yours. But the Biible does not cover these kinds of things, except the transitions of kings in Israel and the passing from Moses to Joshua.  And there are no prescriptive things we can hermeneutically draw from those.  I just fail to see what is more Holy Spirit-led about pastors who stay in churches after their resignation Why pastor persist in staying if there is the slightest danger that the unity of the body and sowing discord among the brethern is a possiblity?  Sure, churches should be more able to handle transitions better as youu sugest. I ageee.  But they don’t.  It is one thing to clean house and another to demolish it..  So more wiser people and more spiritual people, like former pastors, should move after their resignation and graciously prevent the possiblity of being a stumlingblock.  And we pastors must remember that our concern imust be for the good of the Body of Christ.

There are also the purely human issues. Does the pastor own the house he is living in? Selling that house and moving might be a financial burden. Do his children and grandchildren live in the area? It would be cruel to expect them to move away from their family.
Of course they could stay in the same area and attend a different church, but that might have its own problems.
I realize we must be obedient to the Holy Spirit, but we can misinterpret what the Holy Spirit is telling us to do. Our humanity sometims gets in the way.
Much depends upon the whether the senior pastor is leaving on his own volition or whether he is being forced by circumstances to leave. In the latter case, there might be some resentment and a reluctance to let go.
That is where a strong and independent Board can be effective if it is dedicated to God and not to a person.

Hey let’s trust Max and the elders there to hear God’s discernment as to whether he stays for god and keep praying for his ministry and family in a difficult season.

This discussion has been interesting. A few of points…

First point. If the former pastor stays in the same town, not attending the church can also create division. If the former pastor remains in town and does not attend, many people will take that pastor’s absense as a sign of disapproval of the new ministry. This is true even if the former pastor makes it clear that’s not the case. I had a situation where a retired pastor took six months with his kids in another city. His wife remained in my city to finish up with a job responsibility. She didn’t attend our church during that time and people talked. And this despite the fact that the former pastor and wife explained to the church before I had been hired that they would be keeping a distance! So this stuff is really tricky.

Second point. From Max’s letter it doesn’t really sound like he is stepping down. It sounds like he plans to write and preach/teach regularly and is just letting go of much of the other leadership responsibilities and expectations. In my view, whoever is preaching regularly is the real Lead Pastor, no matter the job title.

Third point. The personalities involved make a big difference. People brought up the Criswell transition. But Max and Criswell are completely different personalities. I don’t know either personnally, but if I was a new guy coming in… I would welcome Lucado to stay around and would demand Criswell leave the country. A big part of Criswell’s charisma was his force of personality! Lucado comes across as much more pastoral and less likely to be a thorn in the flesh of the incoming pastor. Of course, that could go wrong too, but I think it’s less likely.

This has been one thing I have not understood in evangical churches.  We are commanded to love one another and yet pastors seem to fall out of this line of reasoning.  It’s not a pretty thing to me to have a pastor and then because of health or for whatever reason to have the body of Christ banish him from the premises.  I can’t see the love in that.  I think a former pastor should be welcomed as well as anyone who graces the doors of a church.  How cold it seems to me to be disconnected from people you have known and loved throughout the years.  We should welcome them as grandfathers in the faith knowing that the dad has the final authority.  We are a family, right?  Thank you Max and thanks to your family as well!  May you know the love we have for you at this difficult time and also an appreciation for all God has accomplished through you and yours.  God bless you.

At the church where I attend, we invited the pastor who had planted our church back to live rent free in a house that was right next to the church, when he “retired”. Although he was a man of strong opinions, he considered himself under the authority of our senior pastor, who fortunately was a strong leader. Our “Pastor emeritus” not only did a lot of visitation and served where needed, but he was invaluable when we built a new sanctuary. Since he had formerly worked in construction, he had a sharp eye for what should be done and how it should be done. But as I said, he voluntarily put himself under the senior pastor and would not voice an opinion on any of his actions. So I agree that it does depend on the individuals involved.

i love your books