Yeah, we might. I think if married couples talk about it more and communicate and learn how to improve their sex lives, it can help them immensely. I think it would be worth it like crazy!

I listened to part of Perry Nobles message on sex this week and found it surprising that the congregation clapped for his hard-hitting stance about not having sex outside of marriage.  He told the woman that men basically want to get in your pants and you think your special.  He asked the men to raise their hands if they had heard another man brag about how far he’d gotten with a woman and it sounded like most did.  Perry took a risk but not a bigger risk than the wounded souls who don’t trust that God wants better thing for them.

I would not see sex as an appropriate topic for a sermon or series (because there could be children and teens present), but certainly for an adult study group or discussion.  Sex is a vital part of the relationship between husband and wife.

I may be sticking my head in the proverbial lion’s mouth, but when did a minister’s blessing become necessary for there to a covenant relationship between a man, a woman and God?  I know that it is seen as necessary today, but at some point in biblical times weren’t a man and woman considered married just because they said they were man and wife?  And according to Moses they could become no longer married about as easily, just by the man giving the wife a written notice of divorce. 

My point is; what is the important part here, the commitment between a man and a woman and their covenant with God, or the blessing of a minister?  If a man and woman declare publicly that they are married, the state considers them married (common law), they can get a marriage license, have a ceremony and get a marriage certificate from the state, but they don’t have to in order to be considered married by the state.  The state recognizes their relationship, does God?  If a couple gets married by a JP with no religious standing does God recognize their marriage relationship?

I agree with most that sex outside of a covenant marriage relationship is sin. If two young people are sleeping together with no intention or thought of a marriage relationship, they should be counseled that this behavior is sinful.  But if a young couple is committed to each other, living and sleeping together, and planning on having a minister marry them, is it really sinful fornication the day before the ceremony but acceptable marital relations the day after?  Shouldn’t we celebrate the fact the young couple is committed to each other and wants God’s blessing, as signified by the blessing of a minister, rather than insist on abstinence until a minister blesses their relationship?

I assume Brian’s young couple is still going to get married, maybe by a different minister, or maybe by a secular JP.  Will God still recognize and bless their union if they don’t have it officiated by a minister?

Perry told the woman sleeping with their boyfriends to test his commitment cutting off the sex.  Most women would be afraid to do that.  I do think pastors should discuss sex more frequently.  The bible tells married couples to come together frequently.  I believe there are a ton of married Christians who withhold sex from one another but men especially are ashamed to tell. 

Perry also used the M word which I’ve never heard in church!!!!  Hope nobody brought their grandma!!!

Ann, so your opinion would be that God does not recognize marriage without a state sactioned ceremony?

I understand the young couple was NOT yet married. I agree that it would be preferable if both parties were virgins until they get married and only sleep with each other as long as they live.  But I also try to live in the real world, where that often isn’t the case.  I would think it would be considered an honor to be asked to bless someone’s marriage, and a chance to counsel the couple and help set them off on the right path.  So I would see a refusal to marry a couple because they were already sleeping together as a wasted opportunity to help God work in their lives. But that’s just me.  I’m not a very condemning person.  And I don’t see everything as black and white as some people.

I love it when someone says the Bible is completely clear.  Who married couples before there was a church or priests?  Didn’t a woman just move into a man’s hut, or cave or whatever, and take up residence as his “wife”?  Or maybe as one of his wives.  Who married people before there was organized religion? Who blessed these early, pre-organized-religion unions? God, perhaps? 

If a Muslim couple gets married by a Muslim cleric and then they convert to Christianity, is their marriage still valid?  And is it blessed by God?  Even though it wasn’t a Christian marraige when it was officiated? 

Yes, praise be to pastors who refuse to marry young couples who are already sleeping together.  I’m sure that brings them closer to Christ and never pushes them away.

Maybe part of my feelings on this issue come ffrom the fact that when I was young the minister of my girlfriend’s church refused to marry us because I was not of their denomination and he felt I was not a righteous enough Christian.  He counseled my girlfriend not to marry me and to look for someone he could approve of.  We got married anyway, and then every time the Army sent me away to some hotspot she took off her ring and acted like she was single (and promiscuous). And he condemned me as not righteous enough!

I can empathize with clergy who have “gotten out of the marriage business”, who tell couples to get a state certified marraige and then they’ll officiate a ceremony blessing the union.

Sorry Todd, I seem to have gotten a bit off topic.

I can buy that real marriage does not need a “blessing by the state”, but in the case that Brian cited, when did the real marriage occur, if at all.  My understanding is that this couple did not recognize their own relationship as a marriage yet, hence the engagement and future wedding date.  Therefore, as believers, their relationship was outside biblical marital boundaries, and Brian had every right, as a pastor, to challenge them about this.  However, I think that refusing to marry them kind of compounds the problem already presented.  I note that Brian realizes that they’re having a sexual relationship because they are living together.  How many Christian couples not living together are still engaged in a sexual relationship, and still get married by Christian clergy in a Christian church?  How far do we go in our investigation of people’s activities before giving them the go-ahead to get married?  I know pastors who have refused to marry people in the church (although willing to marry them in a park or some other place) because the woman was obviously pregnant.  This seems like a double standard to me, and brings to mind Jesus’ words about “forbidding others to marry”.  Please hear me, I do believe that couples should wait until marriage to have sex, and Christian couples should be challenged on this point.  I am not sure we have the right to deny them marriage if they choose otherwise.

Brian, you are right, this thread has been hijacked (although down a very interesting rabbit trail), so in an attempt to segue back to the original post, I would submit that more (not all) situations like the one Brian cited could be avoided if there were, in fact, more churches talking about sex.  Yes, we need to be mindful about the children and teenagers (in my church a nonissue, because they have their own services), but quite frankly, I think I would encourage the teenagers to enter into the discussion, because questions and misinformation are already present in their minds.  Who better than the church to feed them the right answers and the truth about God’s gift of sex?

Nora

I just re-read my original comments and they seem harsher than I intended them.  I apologize.

Brian, I do not mean to criticize you or your actions, I truly believe you are living what you believe.  I support anyone who stands up for what they truly believe.  I may disagree with what someone else believes but I’m always going to support your right to interpret scripture and believe what you believe to be the truth as revelaed by scripture and the Holy Spirit.  I’m just saying I think I would have handled it differently. 

And I agree with you about sex outside of a marriage covenant being sin.  I believe it is best if a young couple abstains from sex until they are married.  My point wasn’t that it was OK for aa unmarried young couple to be having sex, but that it seems incongruous to me that it is sin the night before the wedding ceremony by a minister but it is OK that evening after the ceremony. To me it seems the important part is the couple’s commitment to God and to each other, not the ceremony.  I mean at some point back in history, men and women were “married” simply because they moved in together and society accepted them as a couple.  No ceremony, just the commitment to be together and, hopefully, a commitment to God.

In my time I have heard many claims by people of faith that I disagree with.  I have heard ministers claim that if a couple is not married by an ordained minister, by a JP for instance, that God does not recognize their marraige.  I have been told that I was not righteous enough to marry a member of a minister’s congregation and had him refuse to conduct the ceremony.  I have heard a minister say that all non-Christians are living in sinful fornication because God does not recognize their marraiges.  I had a roomate who had a minister refuse to marry him and his girlfriend because they were different races.

Once my pastor did a sermon on marriage complete with an illustration using duct tape.  He took the duct tape and stuck it to a speaker, then demonstrated how hard it was to pull off to illustrate that God wanted our marriages to be strong.  He then stuck the same piece of tape to a chair, his sweater, the floor, and then the speaker again, and then demonstrated how it was easier to pull it off illustrating that God wants our first marriage to last because any subsequent marriage will not be as strong as our first.  Being a man who has been married, divorced, and married again, I was quite offended. Worse, I am (re)married to a woman who has never been married before, so what did this sermon say to her?  That I am not as committed to her as I was to my first wife? Just the opposite, I am older, hopefully wiser, and gave marraige much more thought and due consideration than I did the first time.  I told him later that I was offended, that I thought that sermon would be great for young couples considering marriage for the first time, but that for couples in my situation I didn’t think it was a helpful sermon.  I told him I thought a better demonstration would be to stick two pieces of tape together to illustrate that when two people are committed to each other, in a covenant with God, that it is much more difficult to pull them apart than it is if only one is committed.

So, as I stated before, my views on marriage and sex may be colored by experience as much as by scripture.  And as to the original question, I agree that church is the right place for young people to learn about sex and marriage, but maybe not in the worship service. I think discussions with genders separated and with couples together could both be beneficial, as long as they’re handled properly.

Daniel,

I hope I did not give the impression that I needed an apology - I certainly don’t feel that way.

And I also share your struggle about when sex is “appropriate” - meaning why is it wrong the night before the wedding and not the night after.

Here’s my take on that: if I were stranded on a desert island with the only woman I could marry, and we decide to marry, yet there was no one who could “officiate” the ceremony (minister, JP, mayor, ship’s captain, witch doctor...), I would declare my commitment to her and God, and call it good.

I don’t necessarily think that on a theological plane it is “required” to have an official wedding.

However, on a purely civic level, every state has definitions of what marriage is and what is required for that union to be recognized.  Some states recognize common-law marriage (where they have simply been living together for a certain number of years) as valid, others do not.

We are told in scripture that we are to be subject to the laws of the civl government where they don’t command us to disobey God.  So I see no reason to not obey the rules of the government as to what “marriage” is.

In that context, marriage is defined in scripture yet codified in civic law.  And since sex is designed by God for the context of marriage, it is wrong outside of the recognition of that union by whatever body has been given the authority to recognize it.

Boy - I hope that wasn’t too confusing!

And let me say that I join Ann in sharing your frustration with how you’ve been treated in the past.  Even though I may hold a somewhat more rigid view than some, I hope that I would never come across as someone who is condemning of brothers and sisters in Christ who may not share my views.

Brian

I think we’ve supressed the subect in church for many years. I believe we’ve failed our youth in our churches because sex has been a “taboo” subject. However, The Song of Solomon directly deals with the sexual relationship between a husband and wife - and it does it rather liberally - and unashamedly.

When I was dating my wife, I talked openly about sex with her. (We waited until our wedding night ) She had never even had a conversation like the ones we had about sex - and they were just open, frank discussions! She was amazed that I was so comfortable talking about this subject. When she was growing up, her mom was too embarassed to talk to her frankly and openly about sex. The reason - it was a “taboo” subject. If her mom or even if my wife to be would have had Biblical teaching about sex in church, maybe things would have been different.

That Bible directly addresses the subject, and so as ministers, I feel we have a responsibility to teach our congregations about the subject. We need to be sure it’s in the proper context, and that we treat it with respect. I also believe that discussions on sex are more than appropriate in our youth groups - it’s necessary. One of the guys I work with at my full-time job (secular) was on the MySpace.com website just today. He was looking at videos on a friends page and some of the videos showed teenage girls in the age range of 15-17 dancing in very provocative manner, with very few clothes on. I think that I can be very accurate when I say that it is very likely that the girls in that video are friends with at least one young girl in a church youth group somewhere. (Actually, it would not surprise me if the girls in the video would be a part of a youth group in a church somewhere.) These are the influences our young people are having in their lives. This is why it’s so important for us to give our young people a Biblical base when it comes to sex.

Even married couples can benefit from teaching on sex. The Epistles have alot to say on this subject as well, and good appropriate teaching on the subject can be very beneficial for our congregations. We just need to get over the perceived “taboo” nature of the subject. If we treat it in the proper manner, there is no need for it to be “taboo.”