“A great spiritual awakening is on the horizon.” I could babble on about why I think that is true.... why I am moved to tears at the very thought. Totally agree with Rick on this…

Peter,

I agree that Rick can be a great communicator… Not bashing the guy here… There are people in our local church body who were a part of Saddleback before coming here. I’m thankful for his leadership. Having said that....

What we need are individuals who will realize that they too can be a great commuicator if they rely on God… and the power of the Holy Spirit working in and through them in the moments of their daily lives. Wherever they may be.....

It’s not enough to just hear the message… but to let it truly permeate the very fiber of our beings. So much so that we cannot help but rub off on others because the fragrance of God being so strong.

I know I’m singing to the choir with you Peter… Hopefullly it was something beautiful and not just adding to the noise.

“Do you think the church is close to another reformation?”

I heard a pastor who was preaching this weekend who said that across the nation, only one county in Hawaii has had church attendance rise.  Across the entire rest of the country, it has declined. 

Additionally, news headlines show a rise in apostasy and heresy in the church, such as strippers in services, pastors being brought up on sex charges, and the omission of the preaching of the Gospel for more “tolerant” messages.

Not to be one who read the Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other, but if anything, I don’t see another reformation in the works--I see the sort of “falling away” that was foretold within the Bible. 

--
CS

CS,
I thought about not commenting because I know I come off as negative and combative in some folks mind, on this blog. But this idea on another Church ‘reformation’ and ‘renewal’ just does not compute with me, not in this present situation we find the Church in. I am in agreement with you.

First, I would ask Warren, “Which church, Rick?” If someone were to do a survey [maybe have] and ask, “Who represents Jesus’ Church on earth,” we would find NO consensus. Is it the church Jim Wallis represents or Jerry Falwells? Is it Brian McLaren or John McAurther’s church? Is it Jeremiah Wright or Joel Osteen’s vision of Jesus’ Church? Is it the Amish or Todd Bently’s idea of Jesus’ Church? Is it the Catholic, Prot., Eastern Orthodox, Baptist, or Mormon?

Warren writes: “The first reformation focused on what the church believed, this next reformation, according to Warren, will focus on what the church does.”
----------Using the examples above, can anyone truely identify what the Church believes, today?

We can not even agree anymore as to Jesus being the only way to the Father. I just looked at the Pew report with the question: “Many religions can lead to eternal life?”
Protestant 66% yes.
Evangelical 57% yes
Mainline 83% yes
Historical Black churches 59% yes
Catholic 79% yes

A new reformation with empasis on what the church does. I think not. Not until we know what we believe.

Does the Church focus on the murder of babies in the womb and gay married that just became a reality? Is it Global warming or feeding the hunger? The fact is, if we could agree on what we believed, we could do all of the above. Who here thinks that the Church of Jesus Christ can NOT feed the hungry and at the same time stand up for biblical morality? Well, the Church of Jesus Christ can, but then again, I am guessing that there may be more than a few who read Todd’s blog who would disagree with what biblical morality is? And the chasm is now so wide and deep between even we on this forum, of what we believe, that we couldn’t come together as a group, so as to focus on what Warren proposes.

Stated plainly, I am in the minority. Jesus is the only way to the Father. I will NOT every join, under the banner of Christianity, with those who teach that there are many religions that lead to eternal life. What does light have to do with darkness?

Warren thinks God is preparing the Church for reformation, I think not. The power of positive thinking does not alter the facts. We are a fractured Church. Reformation, no, house-cleaning, yes.
fishon

fishon, so far there are three of us in this thread that are in the minority. The church is not primarily about engaging people. It is primarily about proclamation which in turn enlightens people to the Gospel through the Word. When conversion occurs, it changes people and they in turn go into all the world and live the new life out, be it in politics , art or what have you. This is not the churches job. It is the individual’s duty. The church has lost her bearings in the quest to be “relevant” to popular culture and especially the Boomers and Buster generations. This is the wrong type of contexualisation.

According to stats (isn’t this ironic?), the CGM is waning. It is being swallowd by its own philosophy though many in it do not realise it yet.

Rick Warren doesn’t speak for me.

The first reformation was about what the church believed? Just going by what the recent polling numbers 57% to 83% of evangelicals and protestants believe Jesus Christ lied when he said “I am THE way”. So me thinks the “first” reformation is still under way.

The “second” reformation seems to me to require a “preterists” or “dominion theology” interpretation of Bible Prophecy/ Church History.

Jud,

I think you see a connection and relationship between Warren’s comments and the recent polling numbers that doesn’t exist. They are separate facts and issues perhaps.

You write [The “second” reformation seems to me to require a “preterists” or “dominion theology” interpretation of Bible Prophecy/ Church History.] Or maybe this thinking only requires an understanding that faith without works is dead, and a desire to have a more vital, living, active faith that will indeed impact the people around us. Kinda like “I don’t go to church, I am the church… and that means I _________(you fill in the blank)”.

I hope that most of the people in the pews (who are the people in the real world living out their trust in Jesus daily) care far less about their interpretation of church history than they do about what the Gospels say about how to live life now and what to DO today… in my home, my neighborhood, my city, my state, my nation… my world…

Jud wrote: “Absolutely, Faith without works is deader than a doornail. But “faithfull” people unified in their avoidance of absolute truth .... it is the Peace Corps, Not Christianity.”
--------------I can not give a big enough AMEN to that statement. Right on, Jud.

--------------I wonder if someone could tell us what the difference would be for we who believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God and that Jesus is the “only way to the Father,” to partner up with those who DO NOT believe in those doctrines, but call themselves Christians, to do good works together, as opposed to partnering up with the Mormons and JWs for works? ----Way to long a sentence, but you/they can figure it out. 

Jud, I don’t know if you have read much of the writings of some of the “emergents,” but they bristle at even the word “Doctrine.” And doctrine is not even assigned to the bottom shelf, but to the back--end of the basement.

Paul did tell Timothy, “ Watch your life and DOCTRINE [caps mine] closely. Persevere in them, because if you do you will SAVE [caps mine] both yourself and your hearers.”

Then he tells Timothy in his second letter, “For the time wil come when men will NOT [caps mine] put up with sound doctrine.” That is a fit discription of the church in America, for sure.

Unlike Elijah, after he battled Baal, he ran from JezeebeI, and thought he was the only prophet left, I [I am not a prophet] know I am not along in my thinking about these issues, though we are quickly becoming a minority. Good to hear some of you think and state your opinions and thoughts.
fishon

fishon,

I know this is an aside from the topic but to answer you, I am very familiar with the emergent church. One of my very close friends is right in the thick of the middle of one of the largest and founding “cohorts” of that movement… oops I said movement! It’s a very sad thing but the spirit of it is really nothing new. From what I can tell it’s really just “mainline” Universalists who have a background in Christianity and are nostalgic for “Jesus”. That sounds really harsh but from COUNTLESS conversations with this person and a bunch of research and reading that is the only way I can sum it up. Or, another def. might be “one who has replaced Christ as the center with doubt” Doubt is no longer an peripheral element of faith but the highest of virtues and it’s confused with humility and worn as such.

Rick Warren’s got to be crazy if he thinks the church can tackle global issues of spiritual emptiness, self-serving (corrupt) leadership, extreme poverty, pandemic diseases, and rampant Illiteracy.

But I praise God that he’s crazy enough to try.  I keep hearing some criticizing the P.E.A.C.E. plan for not being “Christian”, or not being scriptural enough, or all kinds of thing it’s not supposed to be. 

PEACE isn’t a new way to “do” church, or a new doctrine, and it certainly isn’t an idea from the “emergent” church.  Isn’t it basically a call for the church as a whole to try and address what they consider to be some of the most urgent global problems?  Would you prefer the church do nothing? 

Is it just because it’s RW that you’re against PEACE?  If it was John McArthur’s PEACE plan but it was exactly the same plan it is now would you like it better?

I get it, you don’t like CGM, or seeker-sensitive, or, well, the list is pretty long so I’ll stop there.  But feeding the hungry, treating disease, educating the illiterate? Why wouldn’t you like that stuff?

DanielR,

You’ve got me dead to right, I abhor the feeding of the hungry, the teaching of the illiterate and the treating of disease. I am white, I am male, I’m the fundamentalist that Tony Campolo and your mother warned you about,. Did they tell you that I eat small Children too?

Look, if John MacArthur penned the P.E.A.C.E plan I’d still be again’ it. Rick Warren doesn’t speak for me and I could also argue that he isn’t speaking for Jehovah God too. Crack open Revelation and you will see the REAL peace plan. You will also find a Church described seven different ways that will occupy this planet… curiously enough it looks much like our reality today, not a global peace making force… although there is a global “peace initiating” force that is described. Sadly I believe many more in the Church are looking for this earthly peace than the Prince of Peace.

Going back to the original question Todd asked.  Do you think the church is close to another reformation?  The short answer is no.  I do not think we are that close right now.

The reason I do not think we are that close is evidenced in these postings.  Too much either/or thinking.  Too much chicken or the egg arguments… No some churches will do church, some churches will be the church. 

Do we need reformation in our beliefs and doctrine?  some need to be reformed some just need to be learned.  Is this important?  Absolutely.  It is not mega churches et al that struggle alone with the kind of results the Pew Forum posted in our beliefs.  It is not RW’s fault it is all churches.  The way people learn has changed but the way the church gives out information has not.  We married our methods and in doing so quit acting like the bride of Christ in this world.  That is what will keep us from reformation

Jud, Fishon, Fred and CS… Please hear this in a spirit of love as it is intended.  I hate arguing the same thing with you guys every post you chime into.  I am a firm believer in doctrine, sound doctrine.  I agree it needs to be imparted.  Your posts make assumptions about me, Peter and several others that are not true and each time they keep us from really sharpening our tools. 

What if you came here and asked questions that were not loaded questions?  Not the kind of questions designed to trap, reveal the slightest error or confirm the suspicion that we are liberal care nothing about doctrine kind of people you say we are.  What is you engaged here from a perspective of learning?  What if you came saying something like… How does your ministry handle this issue of practical bible doctrine and living out the mission of the church? 

Please hear me in this.  I am theologically conservative.  I do not pastor a SS church nor am I a part of the CGM.  I care deeply about doctrine and practice.  I am here at MMI to gain encouragement, discuss “how” other people are making progress, reaching people, sharpen my own thinking and practice, learn and grow.  I am not here to argue Calvinism, the evils of RW or his kind, the terrible practices of the emergent, how McLaren is the Anti-christ and how evil and liberal all the churches have become. 

I want an exchange of ideas not an argument about theology.  I am fine with my theology.  Fishon, your church is growing and God is working there… I would love to hear about how you are leading in your church.  Where it applies, how do you go about teaching doctrine and practice?  What do you do to ensure your people do not just believe the right things but also live them out?  That is the point of this post, not whether it “should be” but “how it can be.”

That is the purpose of MMI.  Not a platform for someone to argue but a place to share and sharpen.  If that is not why you are here then please with all due respect, why are you here?  What is it you believe so strongly that makes you disrespect this forum and believe the worst about the posters here.  Why do you keep chiming into discussions, hijacking them often from the original point?  These are not angry questions, they are honest questions.  They come from a heart that is tired of being here at MMI if this is all we do. 

Todd, I apologize if I have over-stepped my bounds here.  I may not speak for everyone who lurks or posts here but I know more than a few people have quit posting for these reasons.  MMI is a fantastic resource, I have gained much from it’s presence on the web.  I hope I can get some honest answers from these guys about the WHY.

Peter wrote:
“Does it occur to you that if we wait till everyone in the pews has all their theology figured out to make a difference in this world, that we never will? If you and I differed on some area of doctrine, could be both work together to perhaps give a cup of water to a thirsty stranger, or would we have to work out our differences first?’
-----------Peter, I pastor a small, rural, Church of Christ ‘Instrumental.’ We have no denominational ties; no para-church organization to give money or supplies in times of emergencies and needs. Just to name a few incidents: Tsunami, Katrine, 9-11, etc, we have raise thousands to send to help. I interject this only for clarification; We do not believe in “once saved;” however, we support Samaritians Purse and Operation Blessing, and they doctrine is “once saved.” The doctrinal issue is a pretty big difference for us, but we do put aside our differences and give a cup of water and a piece of bread through baptist organizations, and our church gets none of the credit. But we are not looking for any. We also support on a regular bases a baptist missionary. So you see, we don’t have to work out our differences to do the right thing.

Peter, why does Warren have to start up new things when there are some many wonderful churches and para-church groups doing much of what he say needs to be done? Why not join The Salvation Army, and Habitat for Humanity International, World Vision and Food for the Poor? Why not partner up with Samaritan’s Purse and Compassion International, or operation blessing? Why not join the Southern Baptist in there relief program that is second to none?

This idea that the Church is not doing much to help the World’s poor and hurting, sadly is being perpetuated by people such as Warren. And that is what gauls me and others. You see, you never hear about thousands of small churches who do and give such as the church I pastor. So, yes, it pushes buttons when we hear that the church [we], are not, and yes, their message is not, not doing anything to help. 

I will say it again; yes, we can do better, but to paint a broad brush stroke as Warren does, does get under our skin.

I don’t know if what I tell you makes sense, but that is this one man’s thoughts and opinion.
fishon