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The “Original” Cussing Preacher, Hybels vs. Driscoll, Suing Your Pastor Over Prayer, and More!

Orginally published on Monday, April 30, 2007 at 8:08 AM
by Todd Rhoades

OK... a few things on my mind this morning... including the 'original' cussing preacher, the Elvis impersonator pastor, Hybels vs. Driscoll, and a unique case of the woman who is suing her pastor and church over a prayer injury. You must read on...

The “Original” Cussing Preacher
We’ve talked her quite a lot about Mark Driscoll and the stigma he has had ever since Donald Miller called him ‘the cussing preacher’ in a book a few years ago.  Well… I think that title really should go to the ‘now in eternity’ TV preacher Dr. Gene Scott.  Some of you will remember Scott from his late night tirades on local television stations across the country.  While Dr. Scott didn’t necessarily fit into rigid evangelical territory (to say the least), it would be hard to say that Driscoll has anything on him.  You can see the example here (a word of caution, it is hard to understand some of this preacher’s sentences because he his ‘bleeped’ so much.  I think this puts the whole ‘cussing preacher’ think in perspective.  QUESTION:  Have you ever said anything from the pulpit that should’ve been bleeped? (HT:  Smart Christian)

Hybels vs. Driscoll
Speaking of Mark Driscoll, there’s a lot being blogged today about Bill Hybel’s ‘rebuke’ of Mark Driscoll at the National New Church Conference last week.  I’d be kind of out of the loop if I didn’t mention it somewhere here.  Tall Skinny Kiwi has a little about it here.  Mark Driscoll gives his perspective here.  I find myself in a somewhat awkward position.  Of course, I work for Leadership Network, and we were a sponsor for this year’s National New Church Conference (which was great, by the way).  I’m also working with Mars Hill on a project; and we’ve worked closely with Willow as well.  I also worked closely with the promoters of the conference this year.  It’s always difficult when different worlds collide.  QUESTION:  Were any of you there for that last session at NNCC?  What was your read on the Hybels comment or the Driscoll video?

Suing Your Pastor Over Prayer
According to the Lansing State Journal, A woman who struck her head while praying fervently at Mount Hope Church in 2002 will pursue her case against Pastor Dave Williams and the church.  In a July 2005 complaint, Judith Dadd claims she answered a call to the altar, where church members often “are overcome by the Spirit of the Lord” - they sway, move or collapse to the floor while praying.  Dadd claims that on previous altar calls, trained ushers were available to catch those who fell to the ground. When she fell in 2002, she says, no one caught her.  Dadd also claims in the suit that immediately after her injury, Williams and the church, where she was a 12-year member and involved in the women’s ministry, ignored her need for first aid, comfort from the trauma and shock and spiritual support and fellowship.  Kokomo Bokomo, talk about a ferverent prayer!  QUESTION:  Have you ever injured yourself while praying?  Is there a pending lawsuit?

As if we need to lose more credibility… Michigan ‘Minister’ Performs Marriages Dressed as Elvis
Breitbart.com reports, “You don’t need to go to Las Vegas any more to get hitched in an Elvis-themed wedding chapel. There’s a minister in Michigan taking that act on the road. “We bring a little of the Vegas experience to them,” says Greg Jaqua, an Elvis tribute artist.  Jaqua was ordained through the Universal Life Church a number of years ago, but recently renewed his licence after realizing he could combine his talents to serve a niche market.  “A couple of years ago, someone told me he and his fiancee wanted to go to Las Vegas and be married by Elvis, but they couldn’t go,” he said. “I got the idea for this several years ago and started doing weddings last year.” Jaqua said he has performed three Elvis weddings in his mobile wedding chapel so far… When he was casting about for ways to supplement his income, the wedding chapel seemed like a natural way to do it.” Thanks, Universal Life Church… your mail-order pastor licenses make us all look great.  QUESTION:  I know a few people who’ve ordered the Universal Life ministerial license, just for fun.  Anyone here want to confess to having a ‘supplimentary’ license from the Universal Life Church?

OK… that’s enough for today.  Don’t want to contribute to pastoral ‘brain drain’!


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  There are 34 Comments:

  • Posted by
    Monday, April 30, 2007 at 8:06 PM

    That’s interesting - I was just up on Rev. Driscoll’s blog, and that’s not how he’s discribing it.  Everyone can see for themselves at… http://theresurgence.com/md_blog_2007-04-28_banned_church_planting_video…

    I also look forward to seeing a coply of last years message (the screaming one) that he delivered if you can get a hold of it Todd wink

    I’m not trying to be judgemental here, but if someone sets themselves up as a public figure, defending doctrine and “the truth” (their particular version and interpretation of it), and then makes it a practice to slam others who don’t agree with said version, then they shouldn’t be surprised when someone calls them on their insensitivity and retoric.  This, in my humble opinion, is exactly what Bill Hybels attempted to do in a very wise and non-confrontational way when he so inconveniently followed Mark Driscoll’s military service recruitment video wink

    Peace -

  • Posted by
    Monday, April 30, 2007 at 9:25 PM

    While I understand the scoffing by some who have posted, I know some very solid Christians who entered the faith through the work of Gene Scott.  One in particular has become pretty prominent in the secular music business and is a very outspoken and committed believer.  While he plays in a secular band, his Christian influence is present on every album the band has released. The blogs on his website are all theological and show a deep maturity.  His faith is the core of his life and he still credits Gene Scott’s teaching with helping him build a strong foundation in the Lord as he recovered from a very legalistic church background.  My discussions with him, especially when we talked about Gene Scott, prompted me to rethink my concept of what exactly a Christian is.  Then I read Anne Lamott’s “Traveling Mercies” and my definition had to stretch even further. 

    I’m really glad I had to rethink such things.  I was in a mindset similar to those who so quickly condemn pastors like Mark Driscoll for his use of language.  BTW, I found MD’s use of the word “banging” kinda refreshing.  That’s the vernacular (in a very light sense) and I get tired of the folks who act as if we’re too holy to use it. 

    Case in point, I thought some of the bleeping on the Scott video was done in an attempt to make what he said seem worse than it really was.  I think the first word they bleeped was “idiot.” Later, I think they bleeped “fundamentalist.” Ironically, the final bleep seems to be over the phrase “Only a fool draws a snap judgement.  C’mon folks!  And from the Wittenburg Door no less!

    Scott may have been pretty intense sometimes, but his theology, from what I’ve seen, was pretty solid.

    Dave

  • Posted by
    Monday, April 30, 2007 at 9:43 PM

    Todd:

    I was at the conference as well and I also was cringing while the video was being played. While not specifically “putting women in their place,” it was definitely slanted. In my opinion, this video seemed out of context and unnecessary at this conference, during this session, and immediately before Hybels. Since the conference planners knew the content of the video in advance, I was frankly surprised that they decided to show it.

    While I was troubled by the video, I appreciated the grace in which Hybels handled the situation. Even though he disagreed with Driscoll’s presentation, Hybels valued women without attacking Driscoll or what he said.

    As for the ban on the distribution of the videos, there were people at the doors as I left handing out copies of the video. It seemed as if many people were either not interested or in too much of a hurry to leave. 

    The most troubling part of this entire issue is the arrogance in Driscoll’s response posted on his blog. His focus is entirely on himself (how speaking for less than 20 minutes wasn’t worth his trip, how much time he spent in the cold to make the video, how his video was banned from distribution). It is a scary picture, when you become so certain that you are right and that everyone else is wrong.

    Rob

  • Posted by
    Monday, April 30, 2007 at 10:13 PM

    MD’s comments don’t strike me as arrogant - he’s just pointing out that we live in a real world with limited resources.  I had no problems with it. 

    Dave

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 9:12 AM

    There is so much more to the falling woman during prayer story. First she fell during a Benny Hinn type service only w/out “catchers,” was hurt but the church didn’t take her injury seriously and their insurance company was basically non-responsive. So she files a suit and receives the wrath of the pastor who “marks” her as an enemy combatant and says that she has renounced her faith in Jesus since she dared to question him and had the audacity to bring up the possibility that the church may have made a mistake in the handling of this accident.
    Thus she is shunned by church members who have been her friends for 12 years. This pastor and church are very skilled in the art of the shunning and ostrasizing. There are had the same treatment.

    The basic problem is that of a true lack of accountability of the pastor to anyone. Members of this church start with the premise that the pastor cannot be wrong so if anyone questions any of his actions or decisions or suggests wrongdoing then they definitely have a problem and must repent immediately. If they do not then they must be shunned. Any aid or support to them will “frustrate the grace of God” in their life. In other words, church members could end up messing up what God is trying to do in this misguided person’s life. Add to that the imprecatory prayers that the pastor directs his members to pray against these people who oppose him (such as “Lord make them have sleepless nights and stomach and family problems") and you have a pacesetting leadership course in spiritual abuse. Oh yes, there is more...so much more.

  • Posted by carole
    Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 9:49 AM

    I know so many men who actually feel the same way he does they just don’t have a platform to speak from so I hear them all saying “preach it brother” under there breath. I call this a blind spot for them, they really don’t see how shovonistic they are. Driscoll see’s, knows and inserts his view on a woman’s place every chace he gets.

    I posted his essay on Alcohol on my blog, I thought it was great but it cracked me up when he started it off with the early 19 century feminisation of christianity being the reason christian men don’t drink beer any more.

    The bottom line for me is, I can see clearly he does not feel the way I do about the role of women in church but I can still receive from his knowledge and wisdom, all the while laughing @ his ability to take a jab at women in EVERTHING he writee or says.

  • Posted by Steve Lavey
    Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 6:58 PM

    Todd --

    I was there and I felt like Hybels wanted to make a point at Mark Driscoll’s expense and clearly knew that his words would imply a position for Driscoll that Driscoll does not hold.  I blogged about this at http://20millionminutes.com. 

    I found this to be a bummer on several fronts –

    1. I like listening to Bill’s messages but it was disrespectful to the hosts of the conference who had worked hard to make this conference about unity of cause, unity of the Gospel and unity of the planting movement.
    2.  It was an awkward moment for the conference leaders, who had seen momentum gaining through the three days. I’m sure Dave Ferguson was cringing in the back. 
    3.  I felt like it was disrespectful to Mark, who does not hold at all to a view that women are not used by God in ministry. Bill tried to make points at someone else’s expense, knowing that Driscoll was not able to respond.
    4. It was disappointing for me to hear that from a leader of his stature, whom most people at the conference look up to as the pioneer in effective church planting.

    I like Bill and Mark, each has had a positive influence on my walk as a Christian and as a ministry leader...just a bummer over all, I guess.

  • Posted by
    Sunday, February 10, 2008 at 3:31 PM

    My pastor had his dog licensed a minister through this organization.

  • Posted by Nadia
    Wednesday, April 23, 2008 at 12:20 PM

    That is a great list. It is good to see you are planning things out before you jump it.
    Your post has given me a place to start from as well.

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