Me Again- One additional thought:

True Worship- an encounter with God will always leave us changed. It will not be a feeling that wears off after our Sunday nap. It may be that God convicts us in worhsip, it may be that God rebukes us in worship, or it may be that God refreshes us. No matter which way God encounters us it is wonderful and it is life changing. Is 6- Isaiah’s life was radically altered. Saul on the road to Damascus encounered GOd and was transformed from a muderer to a life boat for a lost world. THe shephereds at Jesus’ birth told everyone they saw about the Babe. The apostles after encountering the risen Lord went from cowards to bold proclaimers until their martyrdom. On and On.

To judge if we have really worshipped maybe this should be the test- are we different in a meaningful nad lasting way from our encounter with the Almighty nad Loving God?

I am always disturbed by the fact that “worship” and Christians’ opinions of what it is supposed to look like seems to have become the single most divisive topic in the church today, when it should be the driving force of unity among believers!

I am offended by comments which deny the true worship of believers through contemporary choruses, such as the complaint about “I Could Sing of Your Love Forever” above.  May we be reminded that in Heaven the angels sing, “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come” repeatedly?!  It is not a matter of whether or not a song conjures up emotion, but whether or not the heart of the worshiper is focused on the Spirit of God and worshiping Him for who He is.

My husband has been a worship leader for over 20 years, and we are both continually confronting this issue of style, rather than the truth of worship.  We use contemporary music, traditional music, prayer, communion, multi-media, and whatever means by which people can be reached with the gospel of Christ and ushered into His throneroom, confronted with the Truth that transforms lives.

The real need in the church is for people to have a focus off of self and on Christ and to BE REAL!  Let’s quit analyzing the “worship service” and start examining our own heart for worship, as well as lovingly admonishing one another to do the same.

Let’s just love the Lord and love one another.  It’s a simple truth.  Why do we make it so hard?

Cindy said: “My husband has been a worship leader for over 20 years, and we are both continually confronting this issue of style, rather than the truth of worship. We use contemporary music, traditional music, prayer, communion, multi-media, and whatever means by which people can be reached with the gospel of Christ and ushered into His throneroom, confronted with the Truth that transforms lives.”

Who appointed these self-proclaimed “worship leaders” that allegedly leads God’s people into “His throneroom,” anyway?

This, like countless man-made “ministry positions” in the Church today, is based on an old-testament practice where a branch of the Levitical priesthood was responsible for leading people in song.  However, because we are now all priests before the Lord, we have no need of someone to lead us into God’s throneroom because the Spirit of God is within us and who is responsible for leading us into the truth.

Unfortunately, “worship leaders” are the result of the gospel of consumerism, as are the myriad of programs designed to satisfy people enough to discourage them from going to another fellowship.

Cindy writes: “I am offended by comments which deny the true worship of believers through contemporary choruses, such as the complaint about “I Could Sing of Your Love Forever” above. May we be reminded that in Heaven the angels sing, “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come” repeatedly?! It is not a matter of whether or not a song conjures up emotion, but whether or not the heart of the worshiper is focused on the Spirit of God and worshiping Him for who He is.”

I am not at all attacking the praise chourses. But yes I disagree with repetitions that serve only to remove the mind and heart from the process instead of engaging it. I have to say though to compasre “I could sing of your love...” to HOLY HOLY HOLY is the Lord God… seems to stirke the heart of the issue. There is infinite substance to the “Biblical” statement of the angels in Rev 4, whereas the majority of the praise chorus movement is greatly lacking in substance. That was really my main point, not that they are wrong, but lets infuse them with substance and TRUTH that they may have the power to bring us into an encounter with God.

Also, I do not deny emotions as a portion of worship, but they ought not be our sole aim. Instead emotion should be a by product of encountering God.

The greatest opportunity any of us have to truly worship is when the greatest depth of TRUTH about God and His activities is presented. Lets all take a great big step back from our own desires and preferences and just analyze what music we are singing. Just read it, does it carry a depth of knowledge about God or does it focus on I/ME and what I am going to do. I counted a praise song once and it had 15 I references to 3 God references.

It seems worship is as much about what we do Mon-Sat as it is about 1 hour in service. IT is the offering of our entire life as living sacrifices (Rom 12:1-2) in response to what HE has done for us in creation/redemption. Then as we gather on Sun or Wed it can find its expression in a corporate fellowshp setting.

Rev RJ said: “In Exodus...”

This is an unbelievable contention and exactly why I brought up the fact that most so-called “ministry positions” in the Church today are contrived by the thought of man and are based upon an Old Testament mentality.

Please, Rev RJ, find in the NEW TESTAMENT the gift of “leading worship.” You won’t because there’s no need for one to “lead” in worship. 

Why?  Because worship has nothing to do with music and/or singing.  It does, however, have everything to do with the extent to which the Spirit of God expresses the character of the risen Christ in our life through our submission to Him and our death to ourselves.

In essence, it’s about how “dead” we are to ourselves and how alive He is in us.  We need no one to “lead” us into worship because there’s already a “direct connection” to God’s heart through the Spirit for the believer.  So, what’s the need for a person to do the work that only the Spirit of God can do?

I am saddened as I read many of the comments above. This continuing battle between contemporary and traditional worship styles is so draining and distracting. Both are good. Both lead worshippers to that personal connection with God. Do we need worship leaders to worship? No. Do we need Choir Directors to Worship? No. Do we need a Pastor to tell us what God’s Word says? No. We can make a personal intimate connection all by ourselves.
BUT… a good pastor, choir, worship team can be effective in preparing and leading a worshippers heart into authentic worship with God.
Being human we all have our faults(sins)and I am thankful for the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ and God’s saving Grace. But this same humanness makes me prefer one style of worhsip over another. It makes me prefer one style of preaching over another. It makes me fall on my knees daily and ask for God’s mercy.
It is all about Jesus. That’s who we are to glorify. Some people need to sing of His love forever to make that connection. Others connect by singing ‘Holy,Holy, Holy.” It doesn’t matter what the song is, or when it was written. What matters is whether it is effective in helping the worshipper worship.
I have always wondered why this area is such a divisive issue in churches. Then I remembered that Lucifer was in charge of Worship before being cast our of heaven. Does he work his way into our lives so that we focus on the issue of worship, instead of worshipping Jesus?

Ricky--you forgot to read on and quote me here…

“ In reality, it (worship leadership) is a call to discipleship--leading people to put Jesus as Lord through the rituals of praise and worship singing, prayers and teaching.  The pastor who teaches is a worship leader, then, in the sense of who is leading.  The “worship leader” who does the music is just a servant who is gifted to assist in that spiritual endeavor. “

Please read carefully before responding.  Blogging tends to bring out harshness in tone and does not allow a civil and profitable discussion..you can see that we agree at some level.  How about his quotes view on worship leadership and WHO is the worship leader??  I’m enjoying this.  Are you? 

GOD IS GOOD...all the time!

RJ

Rev RJ said: “Please read carefully before responding. Blogging tends to bring out harshness in tone and does not allow a civil and profitable discussion..you can see that we agree at some level. How about his quotes view on worship leadership and WHO is the worship leader?? I’m enjoying this. Are you?

GOD IS GOOD...all the time!”

I’m enjoying this immensely and I apologize for coming across as “uncivil,” but it grates my nerves to hear and to see the Body of Christ being hamstrung by erroneous teaching that is specifically designed to make God’s people dependent upon the edicts and so-called gifts of a select few.

Poor teaching by a minority class of power-hungry men have basically neutered the priesthood of the believer to be hopelessly dependent upon the “pastor” or “worship leader” to lead them to a place where they already are as believers: in the “lap” of a wonderful Father.

One of my main beefs is the addition of “ministry positions” that we have to the Body of Christ, which is uniquely designed and gifted to equip itself, thus having no need for the “professionals.” To say that we need “worship leaders,” a term that is absent from the New Testament, is to say that the Body of Christ is lacking or incomplete, which is completely misrepresentative of the work of the Spirit of God in the hearts of believers.

Hey Todd...churchstaffing guy...the church needs you...whether you’re the hand or foot or whatever...we need you!

Todd asks: “Is it just that you have a problem with people being paid? Or is the problem with the position itself? Or that people other than from the local body are brought in? Or with what the position does? (or all the above?”

Todd, I am convinced that had the Church never been hijacked by the “clergy,” thus relegating the elect (or as the “clergy” calls “them,” the “laity” [a horrible term for God’s people]) to the “spiritually-welfare” dependent caste that they’ve become, there would be no paid staff or even a staff for that matter in the Church.  So in that regard, I do have a problem with paid professionals being in the church, particularly paid “worship leaders” who do little else than plunk away at a piano trying to drum up songs that are designed to tickle the emotions rather than speak of God and His wonderful works in the earth and heart of man.

However, because pastors have made “their” sheep dependent upon every word that proceeds from their mouths, the natural (as in human nature) result is the constant creation of other positions in order to stroke the perceived needs of the congregation.  As well-intentioned as it may seem, this has basically neutered God’s priesthood, which, in turn, has caused the barrenness (or lack of impact in the world) the Church has suffered over the centuries.

Todd asks again: “I assume you’re a senior pastor… tell us more about your church and how you’ve approached this (how have you fleshed this out?)”

I am pastor of a fellowship that is very traditional, yet willing to learn.  Unfortunately, “worship” is the least of their problems.

However, my heart is to help create an environment where freedom to be who God has created us to be and helping our brothers and sisters to become who/what God has called to be is our passion or, in other words, our worship or “spiritual service” unto God.

There’s much more I can write but I don’t want to bore anyone.  My heart is not to offend but to help set the record straight, a record that has been under assault for generations as to what God has always intended for us, a simple faith lived out among our spiritual family and before the world.

Ricky--you surely do not know me or what I know of worship leaders.  You have not even attempted to listen, learn and understand what is beyond your experience.  BTW--you have really missed the mark on my theological background.  Wow.

I disciple my team as a pastor of worship.  Over 175 people are under my spiritual care and teaching.  ALL of these are lay people who are using their respective gifts of worship leadership.  They work for Jesus.  I hold them accountable, I teach them, I equip them with skill, I am their when they are needing support, I confront their sin, I go the hospital, I do all the yucky stuff behind the scenes so they look good.  I am about them.  This is what being a worship leader is as far as I am concerned.  I have helped plant little churches and have been in some very big ones.  My heart and calling has not changed.

You resent worship leaders for some reason and that is one thing you make clear. You also have a heart to see lay people elevated to where you believe scripture says it should be.  I am with you on some of this.  You just can’t see it, I think.

How about a discussion on grace?  You come across as a harsh guy here.  Does that bother you at all?  In other words, you are not being a good spokesman for what could be some very important reasoning and discussion.  You are making it hard, assuming an adversarial posture and not leaving room for one sign of your fallibility.

To all--I am going to have end my participation in this string unless the discussion is raised a bit.  I have papers from college that make it clear this discussion is nothing new.  Good bye, for now…

Rev RJ said: “I disciple my team as a pastor of worship. Over 175 people are under my spiritual care and teaching. ALL of these are lay people who are using their respective gifts of worship leadership. They work for Jesus. I hold them accountable, I teach them, I equip them with skill, I am their when they are needing support, I confront their sin, I go the hospital, I do all the yucky stuff behind the scenes so they look good. I am about them. This is what being a worship leader is as far as I am concerned. I have helped plant little churches and have been in some very big ones. My heart and calling has not changed.”

Rev RJ, I do want to apologize for offending you but, at the same time, all I’m hearing from you is that it is YOU who seem to be doing all of the work as if you’re the only called to do it.  Look how many times you used the word “I” and “my” in the above paragraph, which is what I hear all too often in “church” today.

What I see in your words is exactly that which has crippled the Church of Jesus Christ, a dependence upon one man or a structure of power that is designed to keep people that way.

Why do people today feel they need a “pastor” or “worship leader” to teach them and/or “bring them into God’s throneroom?” Because they have been taught that they need them.  As elders in God’s body, we should be setting people free from the bonds of man-made religion, not tying the bonds tighter.

Rev RJ said: “You resent worship leaders for some reason and that is one thing you make clear. You also have a heart to see lay people elevated to where you believe scripture says it should be. I am with you on some of this. You just can’t see it, I think.”

I do not resent worship leaders because their hearts are right in trying to uplift people.  However, I do have a problem with the structure that, in order to stay in power, creates positions that are not scriptural but rather extra-scriptural, which is error.

Regarding whether you’re with me on some points regarding God’s people or, as you refer to them “lay people” (Do you know what the word “laity” means?  “Not priestly” That’s disgusting!), I believe that your heart is well-intentioned but, unfortunately, your doctrine and/or practices are wrong in that it appears that you will never see “your” “lay people” as they should be seen: equal to you.

Who holds you accountable for your sin?  Another pastor?  A presbytery?  A so-called “apostle” who is not in your fellowship?  The Cross of Christ made the playground level for ALL of us and in no way places one man above another. 

Rev RJ said: “How about a discussion on grace? You come across as a harsh guy here. Does that bother you at all? In other words, you are not being a good spokesman for what could be some very important reasoning and discussion. You are making it hard, assuming an adversarial posture and not leaving room for one sign of your fallibility.”

I really do apologize for my harshness.  If you knew me, you would know that I am that way only with those who I believe should know better, those of us who have the privilege to spend more time studying the Word of God and teaching.  But with that privilege comes an awesome responsibility: to teach the WHOLE truth, not just what we’ve learned from the seminaries of men.

In addition, I encourage people to take everything that I’ve said thus far on this thread and to study it in light of Scripture because ALL of us are subject to being wrong and I certainly would not want to maliciously lead someone into error.  But what I have also found is that many people “of the cloth,” instead of taking what is said and comparing it to Scripture, look at any challenge to their preconceived notions of what is biblical as an attack and thus reject all challenges as such. 

Believe it or not, we need one another, equally challenging and encouraging each other so that we avoid the snares of the enemy.  I appreciate you and your calling and I hope you do the same for me.