57% of EVANGELICALS Believe that Many Religions Can Lead to Eternal Life
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Tue, June 24, 2008
- Viewed 226
- (42) comments so far
You can read the whole article here...
I wonder… if you polled YOUR congregation, how many people would admit that they think that many religions can lead to eternal life?
According to a Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life survey of 35,000 adults, 57% of evangelical church attenders say they believe many religions can lead to eternal life.
According to a recent AP article "The survey shows religion in America is, indeed, 3,000 miles wide and only three inches deep," said D. Michael Lindsay, a Rice University sociologist of religion. "There's a growing pluralistic impulse toward tolerance and that is having theological consequences," he said.
By many measures, Americans are strongly religious: 92 percent believe in God, 74 percent believe in life after death, and 63 percent say their respective scriptures are the word of God. But deeper investigation found that more than one in four Roman Catholics, mainline Protestants, and Orthodox Christians expressed some doubts about God's existence, as did six in ten Jews. Another finding almost defies explanation: 21 percent of self-identified atheists said they believe in God or a universal spirit, with eight percent "absolutely certain" of it.
Comments
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Mark on Fri, June 27, 2008
DanielR Wrote:
>“Maybe you meant Matthew 7:1 - Do
> not judge others, and you will not
> be judged.”
That’s exactly what I meant. Thanks for the clarification.
>“So, yes, we should not presume to judge
>to whom God’s grace will be granted…”
Thank you, Daniel! I see that you and I agree that indeed Christians should not presume to determine if other Religions Can Lead to Eternal Life which is the topic of this conversation.
>“but we are called to be discerning and
> to correct our brothers in Christ when
> they are wrong…”
Well, you just pointed out the part of the Bible where God himself told you not to do that so it seems you have a bit of conflict on your hands. Please show us where God told you in the bible that its your job to judge others?
>“So what is the context of Matthew 7?
>What type of judging is he talking about?
> Not the type you’re reading into it.”
So if not the “type” I’m talking about then what does it mean and where did you get your context from? This is the question I put to Peter just before he ran away from the conversation. Please be very specific in your answer.
>“And Matthew 7:21 does NOT clearly show
>“ if you are sitting around judging others
> then you yourself won’t be going to
>heaven”. This passage doesn’t mention
>judging at all, it has to do with being true
> disciples.”
When Matthew 7:1 says do not judge and then in Matthew 7:21 Jesus says he does not know you then the context is pretty clear to me. You will need to explain how your idea of the context is different from what is obviously written there.
>“And, by the way, Peter stated his humble
> opinion ...You might want to investigate the
>humble part of that…”
Peter is trying desperately to snub me in retaliation for me not agreeing with him in an earlier conversation. Peter is playing the standard christian game of revenge by being extremely rude without appearing to be rude. Peter didn’t invent this game but he plays it well most of the time. But, alas, yesterday he forgot and replied to my post by mistake. Its rather funny watching him realize his blunder and quickly run away and hide from me.
DanielR on Fri, June 27, 2008
Mark, you’re delusional. People don’t hide from you, they just ignore you. Contact Peter if you really want to talk to him. I think he’s just not wanting to trade rants with you like a couple of lunatics. My e-mail is there if you want to talk to me. Yours is evidently a fake, so who’s hiding?
E-mail me if you want to talk. If you just want to see your own delusional words in print, post away.
And again, you should think about the humility thing. Pray and let God speak to you in this area. It couldn’t hurt.
Peter Hamm on Fri, June 27, 2008
Gee, Mark. Sounds like you’re judging me? http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/wink.gif
I think I should probably engage one more time (although I am NOT going to continue this discussion with you), since I’ve been called rude and, in essence, some kind of intellectual coward. I am neither.
I enjoy having vigorous debate with lots of people I disagree with here on this forum, people who I respect and know something about, in most cases. In many cases I post so that those who may be “eavesdropping” on the conversations of Christian believers and church-people specifically might not get the wrong idea when some folks seem to “go off the deep end” (not necessarily meaning you).
But Mark, I have no idea who you are (since you will not reveal anything about yourself), what you are (in terms of “function” in either the church or society), only that you are accusing me of being very rude when in fact you are the one who has gone far beyond rude in former posts (You actually told me, someone you know only from posts on the internet, that I was going to hell ).
You hide behind an alias with no link to any kind of real email address or web site (Note to Todd: Perhaps this could be against the “rules”), you posit questionable (at best) biblical interpretation (who knows how qualified you are to make it, since you won’t tell us who you are), and you have shown that you are very good at totally ignoring the merits of any argument thrown up against one of your acerbic posts, which seem obviously designed to get a rise out of anyone reading. (It works, you are a success, pat yourself on the back…)
I think you should read this article from Wikipedia and see if it maybe applies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
Quite simply, verse 6 of that Matthew 7 chapter which you are committing interpre-cide (my own word… do you like it?) against states that I should probably not waste my time with an anonymous, non-constructive, stone-thrower. Rather than “running and hiding”, and in lieu of actually engaging your debate on this particular issue, I think I should rather be choosy with how I spend my time and energy. You are, apparently, and in my most humble opinion, not worth either. PLEASE consider the possibility that you may need to change, at the very least, your tactics. Although if you truly are a troll, as I suspect may well be the case, then I think it may be unlikely.
Blessings,
Peter
Mark on Fri, June 27, 2008
DanielR said:
>“Mark, you’re delusional.”
Peter said:
>”...you truly are a troll…”
Both of you have taken to calling me names and neither of you bother to explain the basis for your thinking. You repeat talking points as if you have them memorized but have no idea where they came from. This is truly a sad state for so-called christians to be in. And they when you attack me, you two embarrass yourselves and your religion with these childish behaviors.
If there are any adults actually following this discussion then they can read Matthew 7 for themselves and make up their own minds.
Its very clear that christians who sit around and judge whether or not others will go to heaven will not themselves go to heaven. This is not my opinion. Its in the bible plain as day. Jesus will tell them in Matthew 7:21: “away from me. I never knew you”
Peter Hamm on Fri, June 27, 2008
Mark,
The next time I engage you it will be because I know who you are. till then… out…
mark on Fri, June 27, 2008
Peter wrote:
>“The next time I engage you it will be
> because I know who you are.
> till then… out… “
Peter, It’s the fourth time you have said this. You keep making promises to zip your lip and you keep breaking them. Why should I believe promise number 4 when the first three turned out to be bald faced lies? The two of you still haven’t explained the basis for the special “context” you claim applies to Matthew 7. I’m still waiting. Till then…. your credibility is shot.
Leonard on Fri, June 27, 2008
peter and daniel, let this guy go he has no interest in what the bible says or what is true. He just wants to judge you and pick a fight. He is the same guy who loves charlie barkley as his guide to truth and biblical interpretation.
We need to avoid guys like this as they are driving people away from MMI with their divisive posting.
Peter Hamm on Fri, June 27, 2008
Thanks, Leonard,
I wanted to give every chance I could. I have. I’m done. You’re right. (I think my credibility is pretty darn intact here, too…)
Perhaps our good host, Todd, might make it a rule that if you have no legitimate contact info, your post gets erased.
Mark on Sat, June 28, 2008
Leonard wrote:
>” he has no interest in what the bible
>says or what is true. He just wants
>to judge you and pick a fight.”
On the contrary, Leonard. I have been practically begging those two guys to explain their basis for interpretation of Matthew 7. But instead they wonder around in all directions like little kittens trying to change the subject to all sorts of unrelated and irrelevant distractions.
In case you forgot, the topic of this conversation is “how many people would admit that they think that many religions can lead to eternal life? “
My answer to the question is that Matthew 7 clearly shows that a christian is destined straight for hell if he or she gets into the business of judging other people or their religions. Todd asked a simple question and I gave a simple answer.
Oh, and by the way, if any of you have something to say to me then say it right here in the light of day like a man. Don’t be skulking around using private emails to gossip and whisper behind people’s backs. I don’t play those childish games. You shouldn’t either.
Peter said:
> I’m done.
>“I think my credibility is pretty darn
>intact here, too…”
Peter, that is now the fifth time you have said you were no longer going to participate. When are you actually going to do what you say? You have no credibility with me until you explain the basis for your claim that Matthew 7 doesn’t really mean what it plainly says. Instead of answering the question like a man you run away and ask Todd to have me banned. That sure does look cowardly from where I’m sitting.
Peter Hamm on Sat, June 28, 2008
Mark,
Consider the possibility that my participating after I say I’m going to bow out is actually an extension of grace. It would be more “cowardly” to not engage at all.
I’m going to assume for the moment that there is a good reason for your anonymity and for your tone over your MMI posts, and yes… I’m going to engage your Matthew 7 debate. Since a similar passage is crucial to a sermon I will be preaching in August, I’ve been thinking about it a great deal. I am honestly of the opinion that this will not change your opinion one bit, but you will at least have to admit that I’ve engaged you in this. (Some think I’m wasting my time… but God loves you, Mark, and it’s worthwhile because of that.)
When you encounter 7:1, you rightly look to see how it applies and fits with the rest of the passage, and some of us have contended that your connection of 7:1 with 7:21 - 23 is not accurate. When I look at that second passage (in context also with the passages DIRECTLY around it, which is where one always look first for interpretation), I see a very interesting idea about “fruit” (vs 15 - 20, relating to false prophets) and the importance of listening to and following Jesus’ teaching (vs 24 - 27). This context does not necessarily support the direct correlation that you have proposed, that those who judge whether others are “saved” or not are doomed to hell. Indeed your contention in other posts on this forum (as I dimly recall) follows a universalist bent, arguing that there may indeed be many paths to Heaven other than Christ. (I’m not sure you believe that, do you?) In fact, Scripture taken as a whole is pretty clear that Jesus is the “path to heaven” (although He is so much more than that). My contention is that your linking of these two scriptures is driven by and/or drives a universalist view which is contrary to Scripture. It is very clear that there is a standard God holds us to in order to be part of His Kingdom, and Scripture makes it very clear what that is. It is knowable, and those who have been given new life in Christ have it in a “knowable” fashion. (By their fruits you shall know them.)
But where your contention about judgmentalism leading to damnation really falls apart in my view is when you look at the ideas Jesus puts forth in Matthew 7:21 - 23 in light of Jesus’ other similar teachings, another crucial step in the proper understanding of Scripture (or any literary work for that matter). In fact, we don’t even have to leave this Gospel to find the clarification we need. The end of Matthew 25 is the most notable place in all the Gospels where Jesus addresses the idea of damnation and the “final judgment”. It is a very interesting and necessary part of understanding Jesus’ view of these things. Matthew 25: 31-46 makes it very clear (and uncomfrotably so) that people will be judged by how they behaved when confronted with the hungry, the thirsty, the stranger, the naked, the imprisoned… what we often call “the least of these”. Nowhere in this passage does Jesus imply or even give us the grounds to infer that judgment is based on “how we judged others” (although I contend that indeed, judging others in the context of Matthew 7:1 is very wrong indeed).
Mark, I hope you will prayerfully and carefully consider what I’ve said here. It requires more space than is available or appropriate here to delve into much deeper, and I would relish the opportunity to discuss it with you one-on-one. But arguing any further than this in this public forum is probably not what the owner of MMI (Todd) wants us to do.
The key issue for me is that I feel strongly that your views are Universalist in nature, which I contend is at odds with a Christ-following understanding of Scripture. If indeed your views are driven by a Universalist worldview, then, theologically, we may have little more or nothing else to talk about here.
Blessings,
Peter
Leonard Lee on Sat, June 28, 2008
Peter I applaud your grace and find it admirable. Mark simply refuses to be honest. He says do not judge, is adamant about it but does nothing but Judging. His e-mail is a dead link, and his tries to bate each of us into a quarrel. This to me is wrangling about in words and is pearls in front of swine.
Thanks for your grace, it shows courage not cowardice. Cowardice is accusing, hiding behind a fake e-mail and…well pretty much most of how Mark has treated MMI.
Peter Hamm on Sat, June 28, 2008
Thanks, Leonard…
I too, have needed grace in my time.
Mark on Sun, June 29, 2008
Leonard wrote:
>“Mark simply refuses to be honest.
>His e-mail is a dead link, Cowardice
>is hiding behind a fake e-mail
>and…well pretty much most
>of how Mark has treated MMI. “
Gosh, just when I thought you couldn’t get any more weird you manage to astonish me.
So If I understand correctly, in your bizarre twisted thinking, You can post lies and that’s ok, but if I don’t offer up an email address for you on demand then I’m the one not being honest? Have you ever heard of spam? Tell me, in your strange world of right and wrong am I also required to hand over my home address, home phone and social security number to you in order to have your “honesty” stamp of approval?
You have convinced me that the two of you are nothing but a couple of freaks who always must be in control of the conversation but I do need to thank each of you because I have carefully printed out each of your strange responses and I’m going to show them to several friends who I care about very much.
You see, they have been asking about possibly joining a church and I want them to see the kinds of nuts who call themselves christians so they will know not to waste their time or their money on weird people like you.
Thanks for helping me collect the evidence I need to show my friends what kinds of people you really are under the “christian” facade.
Peter Hamm on Sun, June 29, 2008
Mark, I have responded, gracefully I’m sure, beyond the point where I found it unwise, to your questionable (at best) biblical interpretation and (I feel) pugnacious commentary. You have not responded to my argument at all, but have rather decided to try and twist the discussion into a proof of my unchristian behavior.
Perhaps I can help you… you are right. I’m pretty messed up. I am as great a sinner as can possibly be found in this wide world. I am indeed very “weird”, very strange, very fallen, and very incomplete and very learning and growing. I bet I speak for Leonard in that regard as well. I am not worth your time or money. I am a complete and total waste
But Jesus is worth your effort…
In any case, I am hopeful that you will, eventually, encounter Jesus, the one I follow, a God of love, peace, grace, and forgiveness, who offers his favor (unmerited, undeserved, unearned) to any who ask, with no condemnation, regardless of where they have come from or who they are or what they have done. Whether that is someone like yourself, who seems very antagonistic to anything “christian”, or someone like myself, who tries, fumblingly, to follow Jesus and be like Him, and who is imperfect and incomplete and unworthy in all of it.
I sincerely hope you will include this comment in your stack of evidence, but I somehow doubt it.
Mark on Thu, July 03, 2008
Peter Hamm wrote:
>“Mark, I have responded…beyond
>the point where I found it unwise…”
On that statement we are in complete agreement.
>”...your questionable (at best) biblical
>interpretation…but have rather decided
>to try and twist the discussion into a
>proof of my unchristian behavior.”
You are doing a fine job all on your own of showing your “questionable at best” christian behavior. You don’t need much help from me.
>”… I’m pretty messed up. I am as great
>a sinner as can possibly be found in
>this wide world. I am indeed very
>“weird”, very strange, very fallen, and
>very incomplete and very learning and
>growing.”
Gosh, this is such an amazing change of attitude from your previous claims that Jesus’ command to not judge others doesn’t really apply to you and your constant and subtle arrogance whenever you speak implying that you are the smartest person in the room and that anyone who doesn’t agree with you is “questionable at best”.
>“I bet I speak for Leonard in that regard…”
Now this is more like the Peter I have come to know. Your willingness to speak for others is becoming legendary.
>“I am not worth your time or money. I am
>a complete and total waste. But Jesus is
>worth your effort… In any case, I am hopeful
>that you will, eventually, encounter Jesus…
I have indeed encountered Jesus and he has warned me about so-called Christians like you. And now I’m warning others in this group.
>“I sincerely hope you will include this
>comment in your stack of evidence…”
I will indeed include this comment in the stack of evidence in order to highlight how your writing changes depending on who you think might be reading. This behavior of yours brings all sorts of new questions about sincerity, honesty and integrity.
>”...but I somehow doubt it. “
You doubt it because you believe that I would behave like you do.
Its now clear to me that you are exactly the kind of person Jesus was warning us about in Matthew 7:21 and that’s why you are so desperately trying to downplay and redefine Jesus’ words to your advantage.
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