And I Wanted to Be There: “Ingrid, Rick… RIck, Ingrid”. Ain’t Ha
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Mon, May 12, 2008
- Viewed 104
- (100) comments so far
Here’s a link to the original post at Slice. The invitation letter, and Ingrid’s response. Be sure to go back and watch the Tim Keller piece as well. I’d love to hear your comments on this.
Hi Ingrid,
On behalf of Pastor Rick Warren, I would like to personally invite you to attend this years Purpose Driven Church Gathering (May 20-22) at our wonderful campus in Lake Forest, California. Pastor Rick would not only like to invite you, but pay for you to come out and spend three days with this group of national and global leaders. We are anticipating close to 2,000 leaders will gather to learn from our guest speakers. The only request we have is that you please wait to share your thoughts until the conference has completed. This will give you the best chance to listen and learn before responding. Lastly, I would like to include you in an open discussion time with Pastor Rick and a few other leaders on Thursday, May 22nd.
I truly hope you will accept this wonderful offer to come and learn. Please let me know by Monday, May 12th if we can count on you joining us. If you can, I will have our travel agent connect with you to take care of your travel needs. To learn more about this great gathering please click here PDC Gathering.
Sincerely,
Erik Rees
Saddleback Church
1 Saddleback Parkway
Lake Forest, CA 92630
Dear Erik,
I am in receipt of your invitation offering an all-expenses paid trip to Saddleback’s worship conference. I cannot accept your invitation. In the world of live church webcasts, book publishers, websites and so on, it is no longer necessary to travel to see a church to understand what it is all about. Your pastor’s copious writings, speeches and sermons are online and available for everyone to see and analyze in the light of God’s Word.
No amount of time spent with Rick Warren or the worship conference leaders at Saddleback can change basic facts. One of your speakers, Pastor Mark Batterson, recently referred readers on his website to the writings of New Age teacher, Eckhart Tolle, featured by Oprah Winfrey. He said that Tolle’s book, Practicing the Power of Now, was instrumental in the way he thought about life. I could not sit and listen to someone with that lack of discernment. Also featured at your worship conference is Pastor Jentezen Franklin, of the Free Chapel in Gainesville, Georgia. This is the pastor who featured a Michael Jackson Thriller dance on his church platform at a Halloween-themed service, complete with a haunted house set-up on stage. Again, how could I sit under that kind of pastor to learn about worship of the Most High God? Additionally, you have Pastor Mark Driscoll as a speaker. Mark’s filthy language and vulgarity is not fit for any woman’s ears, and I’m not about to subject myself to his disobedient use of coarse jesting in the name of ministry. It does not comport with the Scripture’s requirements for conduct in the office of the ministry. Pastor Mark Beeson of Granger Community Church will also be there to speak on the subject of worship. I cannot listen to a “pastor” who claims personal responsibility for the sex-sermon-campaigns by churches across the nation. These campaigns have brought complaints even from the unregenerate who are sick of their children getting hit with lewd materials in public places. Any pastor who is responsible for this kind of filth has nothing to share on the subject of worshiping our holy God.
Pastor Rick Warren has had vast financial resources to share with the world his solution to mankind’s problems. He, unfortunately, has chosen to introduce an entirely new generation to a social gospel, rather than the exclusive message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is telling that none of the E’s in his P.E.A.C.E. plan stand for “evangelism”. This is wrong.
I cannot agree to Rick Warren’s invitation. He has been biblically confronted repeatedly by those far more able than I regarding his numerous unbiblical teachings and the damage they have done to churches nationwide. We are to worship the Lord both in spirit and in truth. The mixture of truth and error is a dangerous combination spiritually, and that is why I will not be coming to Saddleback.
Sincerely,
Ingrid Schlueter
VCY America Radio Network
Looks like there will be no talking between Ingrid and Rick Warren, at least this side of heaven. Many of you know that we've followed the follies over at SliceofLaodicea.com over the years; the start-ups, the shut-downs; the put-downs and the put-upons. Well, it seems that in an effort for peace and reconciliation (or at the very least to open up lines of communication), Rick Warren has extended his hand to Ingrid and a place on his stage at Saddleback. Ingrid responded over the weekend with an open letter over at Slice. If you haven't already done so, please watch the video I posted today with Tim Keller talking about how religion can easily turn into oppression. I'm wondering... is this a little of what has happened with Ingrid and Rick? here's the letter...
Comments
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Peter Hamm on Mon, May 12, 2008
I was hoping you’d mention this. Ingrid is missing a great opportunity here, imho. But since she shut down comments on her site, I think she’s become much more interested in being right than having dialogue. The site celebrates the idea of Christianity being a very narrowly correct list of orthodox views on doctrine instead of a lifestyle and practice of following Jesus, which is what I think it originally was.
kc on Mon, May 12, 2008
Hey Ingrid:
So what if you disagree with all those guys that will be on the platform. Take the free trip to California and enjoy a nice vacation! Endure the hardship (the conference) but then take a few days off. Sounds like you need it.
BTW: I will be glad to go in your place. Please contact me, Rick!
Tye Male on Mon, May 12, 2008
Is anyone surprised by this? I hope not. At our National Day of Prayer observance here in Cedar Rapids we had a leading atheist and her group show up to give support to the “National Day of Reason.” Our group of evangelicals could have attempted to silence them or talk about how incongruent atheism is with evangelicals. We didn’t.
Instead, we welcomed them and sought to find common ground in an effort to demonstrate God’s love to them. In our case, they were collecting money for veterans which is something we wholeheartedly support.
In other words, we sought to understand them and build bridges. Ingrid has no plans for such. There is no “agreeing to disagree.”
Kudos to Rick for doing the Christian thing and reaching out to one of his ardent critics. Too bad Ingrid cannot do the same.
Jerry Maddock on Mon, May 12, 2008
Ingreds remark on Mark Beeson alone, shows her lack of discernment. Satin would just love us ignore uncomfortable subjects like sex (there I said it) and maybe gay rights and money too. Jesus was a master at talking about subjects the lofty leaders wouldn’t approach. Possibly Ingred needs to be made aware of what is going on in this country? What spirit do you think she is listening to?
Lori on Mon, May 12, 2008
I’m not surprised she said no. I think she is missing a good opportunity to see the full person that she disagrees with rather than just video feeds, books, blogs etc.
I believe it was John Wesley who said, “In Essentials, unity, non-essentials, liberty and in all else, charity.” Some of the speakers at this upcoming conference I do have disagreements with (I’ll not name names). But if I had an opportunity to meet them, hear them and really listen, I would jump at the chance. Would they change my mind? Probably not. But is it easier to “agree to disagree” when we are face to face? Yes. I also think it is easier to pray for and forgive one another when we interact face to face.
I am afraid the Ingrid’s list of “essentials” has grown so long that all she is really doing is marginalizing herself and her followers to the point of being ineffective for the kingdom rather than challenging Christians to do the right thing.
bishopdave on Mon, May 12, 2008
Dear Rick Warren,
If I start publicly accusing you with unfounded allegations, can I have an expense free trip also? I’ll even clean the bathrooms when it’s over.
Keith on Mon, May 12, 2008
I have to say, I have been a fan or Ricks before he was “famous.” However, to dismiss Ingrids comments out of hand is just silly. She has raised some important issues… is it necessary to use improper speech, which the Bible says not to do? Is it necessary to appeal to base desires in a wordly way to attract crowds? Its not a question of addressing the subject of sex, but its a question of addressing it the same way the world does. I’m all for someone asking, “How far is Biblically TOO FAR?” How much identification do I have with a sinner until, well, I too am a sinner? A poor example, but one I’ll use as a contrast… should we show sexual scenes from movies with breasts displayed in our worship services so we can talk about the “correct” biblical views of sex and how this adultry scene was wrong? Ingrid is asking questions of what is VIOLATING scripture. I don’t agree with her most of the time, but I’m thankful for a voice ATTEMPTING to balance the “reach the lost at any cost.” I don’t think we’re supposed to attempt to reach the lost at the cost of being truly the church. If we go so far into the territory of the lost to “speak their language” at some point one has to ask the question when do we in fact, become lost ourselves? When does the church cease to be the church? Or simply put, sometimes we point to baptisms as “proof” what we are doing is working… my question is though… WHAT are we baptizing people into? Is it truly the church? These are legit questions and I’m grateful for anyone who will attempt to keep me true to scripture by asking these questions… even if they don’t always make the best sense.
CS on Mon, May 12, 2008
I’m with Keith on this one. I would like to see the concerns that Ingrid brought up addressed, and the merits or flaws with each comment exposed. I can also understand her mindset of not wanting to go and sharing a forum like that. If countless people have gone before Warren and refuted him, and nothing has ever changed, wouldn’t statistics dictate that the same would happen if Ingrid went as well? At best, it would likely be a waste of time, at worst, the imagery of her on stage and talking to him could be leveraged against her.
—
CS
JOB on Mon, May 12, 2008
“The only request we have is that you please wait to share your thoughts until the conference has completed”
Rick’s invitiation is insulting. Do others receive the same conditional invitation? I’m glad Ingrid declined.
Dane on Mon, May 12, 2008
Didn’t the letter to Ingrid feel condescending? It was like “please come and say nothing until you are enlightened. After you have learned, then you can talk…”
I agree she’s got a lot to learn and the trip would probably do us all good.. And I think the offer to fly her out there is generous. But the wording of the letter felt like a mild rebuke and so it made the whole thing feel a bit insincere to me.
And I’m not in Ingrid’s corner at all.
DanielR on Mon, May 12, 2008
Dave, I guess I read it a little differently. I read it more as “Come and listen to what everyone has to say, then let’s talk.” But I can see how some might read it the way you state.
In any case, I don’t think Ingrid would accept no matter how the invitation was worded. I don’t think Ingrid is the type to share the spotlight with those she considers beneath her.
DanielR on Mon, May 12, 2008
Sorry, I menat Dane.
MIkeS on Mon, May 12, 2008
I’m a bit torn. While my immediate response is “if you’re not willing to meet face-to-face then you have no room to criticize,” I also feel that Ingrid, as already pointed out by Kieth and CS, may have some legitimate issues.
Then I think back to my early corporate days when a boss once said that anyone can point out problems, but leaders offer solutions. With that in mind, I wonder what Ingrid would offer as a solution? I hear critics of pastors all the time, but when I ask what their solution(s) would be, they don’t have any. They just want to criticize and complain.
So, Ingrid, I would ask you, What is/are your solution(s) to reaching the lost and growing them up in Christ in the midst of our culture? What are you doing to help grow the Kingdom of God?
Mike
Peter Hamm on Mon, May 12, 2008
CS writes [If countless people have gone before Warren and refuted him, and nothing has ever changed, wouldn’t statistics dictate that the same would happen if Ingrid went as well?]
Depends on your definition of “going before Warren and refuting him”, doesn’t it. If you don’t count people who set up web sites with the express purpose of critiquing and picking apart public figures’ theologies, then maybe the number is not so great…
CS on Mon, May 12, 2008
Peter:
“Depends on your definition of “going before Warren and refuting him”, doesn’t it. If you don’t count people who set up web sites with the express purpose of critiquing and picking apart public figures’ theologies, then maybe the number is not so great…”
You’re right there about the websites. And yet, from what I understand, many of those people, over the years, tried communicating directly with him, face-to-face, at his church, through the telephone, via e-mail, and have been shot down and had things go nowhere. I’m willing to concede that there are many websites that single out his theology without reaching out to him first, if you’re willing to concede that he likely has been approached face-to-face before about his programs and beliefs, where things did not change in the end.
—
CS
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