Can’t We All Just Get Along?
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Fri, June 03, 2005
- Viewed 136
- (60) comments so far
Earlier today, Pete had a great comment post here at the MMI Blog. Here's what Pete wrote:
Once again we have a watermelon spitting contest going on here. When I first started reading these comments I remember hearing heartfelt expressions from leaders from all walks of life sharing there experiences and hurts. Now what we have here, is a collection of egotistical, exegetical, hermaneutical, philosophical, nonsensical, verbage that has made me deeply concerned about why we're even commenting. I include myself in this when I pose this question: "Do we love to only see our words posted with our names on them? Or perhaps we are so passionate about what we say that we genuinely have no clue that our perception is one of know-it-all attitude. Stop the madness!!!!!!! Let's get back to making this a place for people to share how they feel about their situations. Right now there is probably a person who would love to have someone He/She doesn't know be used by God to encourage them from their struggles and church difficulties. I realize that we have a Conflict segment posted here on Thursdays but what's taken place with the rest of Todd's postings for the week is awful. I think there are some very brilliant minds here who reflect more of the mad scientist rather than the wise old man image. I really want us to get back to helping leaders help themselves not more church bashing.
Here is what I responded to Pete. Please give it a quick read and let me know your comments on the direction this blog should take...
Pete,
Well said. I like the comment about being the mad scientist rather than the wise old man.
Some, feel so passionate about this subject that I know they can't help but post. I'm getting rather tired of it. 
Like it or not, our churches today are not going to look exactly like the Acts 2 church.
Like it or not, there are church buildings that people attend to get their spiritual nutrition (rather than meeting in a house-church setting).
Like it or not, many churches are being very effective (yes, that's qualitative on my part) by being culturally relevant.
Like it or not, some churches use Sunday mornings and weekend services as an attempt to fill the great commission. (Those same churches (most all) also have other gatherings for believers throughout the week designated for growth.) Some even meet in houses!
Like it or not, there are literally thousands of pastors and church leaders struggling to do their best and to please God; only to be ripped to shreds by their own congregation; then eaten up by well-meaning people here on this blog.
Like it or not, if churches, small, medium, or supersized, preach the gospel of Christ dying for our sins, and that there is only one way to heaven; there will be converts, and those converts will join all of us in heaven. We don't need to make judgements on whether these converts are 'real converts' or not.
Like it or not, megachurches, while they can have a multiplied effect only because of their size, do not save entire communities, bring down crime rates, or stop all sinful practices in their area of influence any more than small churches do in their smaller communities of influence.
So here we are, playing with the hand we are dealt, trying to make an influence for Christ however we can. We all go about it in different ways. (One of my ways, by the way is to encourage pastors through this blog; which is not doing a very good job at the present). Let's lighten up on everybody...
If we think that Sundays are only for the edification and building of the saints, and that evangelization should only happen one on one through the week as we individually share Christ; can we accept those who pour all their time, money and emphasis into weekend 'outreach services'? While doing so, do what you do best in your structure to make it effective rather than tearing down your brother who takes a different route?
If we think that church's shouldn't be run like a business (whatever that means)... can we NOT run our own church's like a business and withold our derogatory comments about the church we think IS business oriented? Again, making our church the most successful non-business operating church around?
If we don't care for the culturally relevant style and "gimmicks" some use to attract the unsaved; can't we be quiet about it and instead strive to make our church the most (whatever the opposite of 'relevant') is?
My mom always said if you can't say anything nice about someone, then keep your mouth shut. That seems like good advice. Otherwise, many of use come across as true Pharasees; overly religous, negative, and feeling that we're always right. Jesus didn't look very kindly on those people either.
For those here that have posted differing views, I'm sure your comments will be that I am avoiding debate; or that I'm a sissy; or that I'm conceding defeat. Nope... I'm just hoping that we can become a community that supports rather than a community that argues.
Quite honestly, I sometimes feel like some of you are using this blog as an outlet; to say and act and do things that you could never get away with in your own congregation. I hope that's not the case. (I mean, you have to have a more loving spirit when you're dealing with your own sheep than you show here toward the other shepherds).
Maybe a separate blog for theological debates would be in order; then we could divide the two. (I for one, love a great debate; but hate a mean fight). I'd like to open it up to you... what direction would you like to see this blog take? What topics would you like discussed? Would you like a separate blog for debate; and one for encouragement? Let me know your thoughts this weekend!
Todd
Don’t you wish we could all just get along? We deal with conflict all the time in our churches… do we really need to disagree so much on a blog?
Comments
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BeHim on Fri, June 03, 2005
PETE WRITES:
Now what we have here, is a collection of egotistical, exegetical, hermaneutical, philosophical, nonsensical, verbage that has made me deeply concerned about why we’re even commenting.
BeHim responds:
Pete, and what would someone who lashes out with name calling be considered? Consider also, the Apostles and Christ Himself we’re viewed by the Pharisees and Sadducees as “egotistical, exegetical, hermeneutical, philosophical, and nonsensical”. So if you’re calling us/me that, consider that our Lord and His Apostles and many after them were also called many of those same names and consider what that might make you (or at least what side/position, that puts you).
Do you consider what we say is NOT Biblical? If it’s NOT Biblical Truth then isn’t it something that should be discussed and searched out? I think most of us would be very willing to put our belief to the test of Scripture, I for one want my belief to be based on Biblical Truth, not Biblical Truth based on what I believe to be true.
The REAL point of your entire tirade comes down to this: “Let’s get back to making this a place for people to share how they feel about their situations.”
As though we base truth on how we “feel” about it. This IS the issue.
BTW. I do not consider I “know it all” BUT I do know the One who does KNOW IT ALL and I know what He wrote/says is TRUE!
TODD WRITES:
I really want us to get back to helping leaders help themselves not more church bashing.
BeHim responds:
In what way have I not encouraged leaders to help themselves by searching the Scriptures for Truth?
TODD WRITES:
So here we are, playing with the hand we are dealt
BeHim responds:
I was dealt Salvation from hell by the True and Living God because He loved me for no other reason than His Good Pleasure. I praise God I was dealt that hand! Why does it seem your not as Joyful with “the hand we (you) were dealt”?
TODD WRITES:
trying to make an influence for Christ however we can. We all go about it in different ways.
BeHim responds:
The problem is the “different ways” (and I’m not talking about using DVD’s, Powerpoint, etc), as though there are different gospels. You consider this is about methods when in fact it is about message, THE MESSAGE!
TODD WRITES:
(One of my ways, by the way is to encourage pastors through this blog; which is not doing a very good job at the present). Let’s lighten up on everybody…
BeHim responds:
This is a great “method” Todd, I encourage you to continue. When you suggest “let’s lighten up on everybody” does that mean you to? Lighten up on us? Also, consider that maybe when we suggest “lighten up” that we’re asking/telling the Holy Spirit to lighten up too? After all He does indwell us. Maybe some of the things needing to be said are from Him? Maybe???
TODD REITERATES:
Like it or not.
BeHim responds:
It’s not whether I like it or not, it’s whether it’s from God or not. What if God doesn’t like it? Contrary, what if He does like it? Either way it really comes down to HIM, doesn’t it?
TODD WRITES:
My mom always said if you can’t say anything nice about someone, then keep your mouth shut.
BeHim responds:
My mom used to say the same thing. But let God be True and every man a liar. Confucius, Buddha, Mohammed, they all had “cool sayings” too but that doesn’t mean it’s True or Right. I love my mom dearly but I would never tell her to shut up if she didn’t have something nice to say. My relationship with my Brethren is closer than any earthly relationship (the relationship of son/father, daughter/mother, husband/wife can be separated by heaven and hell but Brother’s we will be for eternity) and thus, I would not tell you to shut up, even if it wasn’t nice (Jesus telling Peter to get behind him “satan” or you’ll deny me, I’m sure wasn’t nice from Peter’s perspective).
TODD WRITES:
Otherwise, many of use come across as true Pharasees; overly religous, negative, and feeling that we’re always right.
BeHim responds:
Maybe it’s the one calling names and telling people to shut up that is these things you suggest. Maybe???
TODD WRITES:
For those here that have posted differing views, I’m sure your comments will be that I am avoiding debate; or that I’m a sissy; or that I’m conceding defeat. Nope… I’m just hoping that we can become a community that supports rather than a community that argues.
BeHim responds:
No Todd, I think it’s more like… you guys go over there and talk about those things. I want to be comfortable believing what I believe and doing what I’m doing, because I think it’s what God wants ME to do. It really boils down to… you’re trying to say you (and I for that matter) have the right to do what you/I/we think is right, not matter what I/we/you say or do (you would just rather I say or do it somewhere else). Does that sound in anyway like Judges 17?
BTW. Should we support (no matter how much we believe or feel it to be true) something that is not Biblically True?
TODD WRITES:
Quite honestly, I sometimes feel like some of you are using this blog as an outlet; to say and act and do things that you could never do to your own congregation. I hope that’s not the case.
BeHim responds:
I speak the Truth in and out of season, no matter how it makes a person “feel”. It’s not because of them I speak the Truth but because of HIM! Listen/read the sermon PDL posted: “Ten Sheckles and a Shirt”. It’s not about the congregation, it’s about HIM.
TODD WRITES:
Maybe a separate blog for theological debates would be in order; then we could divide the two. (I for one, love a great debate; but hate a mean fight). I’d like to open it up to you… what direction would you like to see this blog take? What topics would you like discussed? Would you like a separate blog for debate; and one for encouragement? Let me know your thoughts this weekend!
BeHim responds:
Consider just for a moment (just to REALLY - think about - Selah), that maybe instead of doing the work of God by dividing the blogs, that maybe you are hindering the work of God. I mean really, is not God in COMPLETE control? Is it by “chance” or “luck” or by some aligning of the stars that so many people found this blog and “seemingly” agree about these things? Maybe there is division. Maybe there are disagreements. But maybe shutting up the Holy Spirit is worse than division and disagreement. Instead of taking these measures, ask the Lord to do His work in these blogs and you’ll trust Him no matter what is said or posted. Is this YOUR blog or HIS? I truly hope Todd, it is HIS!
Pete King on Fri, June 03, 2005
Thanks Todd for doing that. For those who have read my comment today Please don’t misunderstand my love for theological debate. I think I agree with you Todd that we should have two postings instead of one chaotic one. Number one, it gives people two options to pick their poison. Second, it reserves the integrity of both groups. To be completely honest it is healthy to discuss issues of controversy. In either case, this should be a place of love and understanding; even if the topic is divided among those who read it. My attempt here wasn’t to serve as the party pooper who wouldn’t play fair because he wanted his way, but rather someone who recognizes the greatness of those who comment here. Although I don’t know any of you, I have gained great insight from reading your comments and am longing to hear them again. God bless.
SPCT on Fri, June 03, 2005
Hi Todd,
I’m trying to guess which posts were particularly offensive to you.
You will always have debate, that is the nature of the blog! Where do you feel the debate crosses the line? That should be defined by you if it is something that concerns you and that way everyone can play by the rules you’ve defined.
If you had hoped for every one of the comments to be in agreement with the position of the author of the article or yourself, why ask for comments at all?
I’m confused. I’m guessing there was something in particular that offended you that you are attempting to address but now it does seem that you are against any dissenting opinions.
Please clarify for us! No one wants to be considered a thread-hijacker in your eyes but we can’t know what that means unless it’s explained.
In my opinion, it’s the freedom He seems to permit on the non-salvation essentials of the faith that is so gloriously freeing about His church. But that’s me.
In His Love,
SPCT
Ricky on Fri, June 03, 2005
Todd wrote:
“My mom always said if you can’t say anything nice about someone, then keep your mouth shut.”
Then I suppose Mary never told Jesus that, particularly about the Pharisees and the religious machine of His day.
I suppose we could say, “Nice buildings.” or how about “Nice sermon, bishop. I can’t wait to hear from the itenerate apostle/prophet tonight.” Or, finally, “I trust that the money taken in the offering will go to help poor people.”
Face it. Sometimes we have to say things that some may consider “negative” because it’s the right thing to say. But I’ll confess that there have been times when I will say things out of anger, but most often it is the right thing to say.
It’s my experience with “church leaders” (and I dealt with literally dozens of them) that while claiming to thick skin, their skin is actually paper thin, particularly when it comes to topics that threaten their security (i.e., docrtinally, positional, etc.).
So my advice is to soften up our hearts and be willing to admit where and when we’ve made mistakes regarding the Church, and toughen up when people who really care for the Body of Christ calls you on the carpet.
Todd Rhoades on Fri, June 03, 2005
BeHim,
You only choose to validate my point. You find fault and/or something to fight about in everything. (As you would say EVERYTHING). You even found fault when I quoted my mother. Not cool.
And, while you find fault with everyting (at least ten things you quoted in your last post; the tone with which you come across does seem arrogant (at least to me).
You said, “Do you consider what we say is NOT Biblical?” No… but you seem to think most of the things the rest of us have to say IS.
I don’t want this to become a mamsy pamsy blog about feelings. But I receive email and comments from people who are blasted apart who simply won’t come back. There is a difference between having this be a blog that pastors want to come to for inspiration, ideas, and debate, and having a blog that in which a few individuals bombard any new idea or thinking saying that it is unbiblical. Really, it’s like, we’re your evangelism field. Well, we’re already converted! http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
BeHim said, “It’s not whether I like it or not, it’s whether it’s from God or not. What if God doesn’t like it? Contrary, what if He does like it? Either way it really comes down to HIM, doesn’t it?”
Absolutely. But, BeHim… it seems like everything that is said here is something that you feel like God wouldn’t like. In essence, your God (who is the same as my God) doesn’t like very much at all. You have to allow for other opinions when there is liberty to do so.
Here’s a little insight into my background. I grew up in a very legalistic church that beat people over the head every week with right/wrong; dos/don’ts, telling everyone every little detail of what Jesus doesn’t like (and taking an awful lot of liberty in doing so). And to this day I don’t know why people ever went back. As a matter of fact, in a youth group of over 75 kids, there are probably 3 or 4 (myself included) that are still a part of any church. Why? Because they just couldn’t take it anymore.
Maybe that’s why I try to be such an encourager to pastors. Many times, pastors take a lot of unnecessary crap (for lack of a better word for it) off of their congregations. Many pastors and hurting; and need to be encouraged. That is one of the reasons I started this blog… so pastors could connect and feel a sense of community… a sense that “I’m not in this alone”. As it’s going though; pastors are signing on the blog wanting some comradery and friendship and support; only to find judgemental “thus saith the Lord” people who make them feel belittled.
Just like the youth group of 75; very few will come back; and we’ve totally missed out on what our goal was in the first place.
As many of you know, I’ve struggled with finding this balance for a couple months now; and I’m getting ready to make some changes and/or guidelines. When I finalize them, I’ll let everyone know.
But really, it’s comments to the effect that I’m trying to “shut up the Holy Spirit” that cut the deepest, and serve as the highest example of the type of comment that is personally and corporately abhorant. To be honest, BeHim, the Holy Spirit doesn’t need this blog to speak through… and if I continue to let you and a few others have their way then in a couple months it will be you and a handful of others here and that’s all. (Kind of reminds me of the woman that came up to the pastor after his sermon and said, “The Holy Spirit said that I should come to your house for dinner.” The pastor replied that the Holy Spirit hadn’t communicated that to him yet and that until He does, she should probably make other plans!)
As I’ve said before… I love debate; and a fair amount of debate is great, even here. But when it turns personal, it really does turn people off. And that’s not what I’m about.
Enough already. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Have a great weekend folks!
Todd
SPCT on Fri, June 03, 2005
Todd, may I ask a question? Because I may have at least come close to the center of the issue here.
The issue is you have a group of folks witht the gifts of discernment, prophecy and exhortation, in addition to pastor/teachers.
You also have a group of folks with the gifts of mercy or helps.
It seems to me that you prefer this be a forum for those folks with the gifts or mercy or helps and exhortations to same.
That is understood and understandable!
At the same time, and back to my question to you—what do you think that the apostles were referring to when then they exhorted us to beware of deception in the church?
This was clearly no small matter to Our Lord, Paul (who shed tears for years about it), Peter, John, James and Jude. Virtually every book of the NT is rife with warnings.
So, if you don’t see it as most of the deception arising from within the church itself, where do you see it arising from? Deception can’t be outside the church—then it wouldn’t be deception?
I ask in all humility because I think that is simply what these folks are warning us all against.
In His Humble Service,
SPCT
Todd Rhoades on Fri, June 03, 2005
Ricky,
You bring up an oustanding point:
“Face it. Sometimes we have to say things that some may consider “negative” because it’s the right thing to say.”
Absolutely. And I’m not against that… and would actually encourage, when done in the right spirit.
But I think what really hurts you guys that feel like you need to call some of us ‘on the carpet’ is that you ‘call on the carpet’ for everything. Every idea. Every thought. And, to be honest… it’s gets old really fast. As some have said before, it comes across as negative and arrogant because of the number of grievances you have; and because of the fact that we don’t know you.
One more thing (from my perspective). Ricky, you said “ toughen up when people who really care for the Body of Christ calls you on the carpet.” That’s one of the other problems with a blog of this sort. I (we) can’t see your heart. And without knowing you personally and only reading your somewhat harsh words at times, it’s hard to see that the carpet laying is coming out of love. The respect has to be earned somehow before criticism is often taken well. And that’s something that’s hard to do on a blog. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Finally, do you see the connotation of this statement:
“toughen up when people who really care for the Body of Christ calls you on the carpet”
... I see a connotation there that you feel that you care of the body of Christ and thus you are right… but others here care about the body as well, maybe even as much as you; and have differing opinions. That’s the crux of the matter.
I’ve had one on one conversations with you Ricky, and you have a great heart. But your heart doesn’t show up in many of your postings to the readers of the blog. That doesn’t mean you’re not welcome; I’m just telling you how you come across to some.
Sometimes, some of you, rather than just lay people ‘out on the carpet’, wish rather to smear our face in a pile of dog doo doo while you’re at it.
That’s when it gets ugly and personal; and that’s what I don’t want here.
Todd
SPCT on Fri, June 03, 2005
Oops - Todd - looks like a simultaneous post! Please see my post above.
But, a further thought.
Do you not see a parallel at all here with the Israelites and the prophets?
Can you not approach this in the same manner—knowing what we know now about the righteousness of the prophets whom all the Israelites hated since they prophecied nothing but death and destruction?
We know now that it was the prophets who were right and not the people of Israel, the Levtical priests, and the high priests.
Just some food for deep thought.
The body of Christ is a glorious thing.
No part can say to it, “you’re not needed!”
All part of His glorious, beautiful, exquisite plan.
In Him,
SPCT
Ricky on Fri, June 03, 2005
Todd writes:
“Like it or not, our churches today are not going to look exactly like the Acts 2 church.”
“Exactly like?” Todd, they look NOTHING like the Church in the Book of Acts, particularly as to the purpose, principles and practices.
Instead, we have adopted virtually every scheme that has come down the pike from “experts” and the result? Declining attendance. Why is that, Todd?
Quote: “Like it or not, there are church buildings that people attend to get their spiritual nutrition (rather than meeting in a house-church setting).”
Remember the old commercial, “It’s better to teach someone how to fish and have them do it, than to be constantly fishing for them?” Great wisdom.
However, we’ve created dependent souls who feel that their only hope of “spiritual nutrition” is to come and be spoon-fed by professionals at least once week. This has led to a deadly atrophy within the Body of Christ. Instead of encouraging others to be responsible for their walk with the Lord, we have created spiritual welfare recipients. How does that really help them in the long run?
And I won’t mention the billions spent each year on the purchase and maintenance of these edifices that speak more of the Tower of Babel than offers any real help to their communities. (Oops! I did anyway!)
Quote: “Like it or not, many churches are being very effective (yes, that’s qualitative on my part) by being culturally relevant.”
Reaching the culture, regardless of where it is (I currently serve with a fellowship that is 99% Asian. My family is the only white family there), takes presenting something so different than their own culture that it grabs the attention of society.
Once the attention is grabbed, close inspection is next and, after realizing that the change is uniquely different, then once the difference is embraced, change is inevitable.
However, what we see in “churches” today is the very thing that our culture doesn’t need: more entertainment and coddling. There’s no difference between “church” and society and we wonder why the Church isn’t making an impact.
Quote: “Like it or not, some churches use Sunday mornings and weekend services as an attempt to fill the great commission. (Those same churches (most all) also have other gatherings for believers throughout the week designated for growth.) Some even meet in houses!”
Todd, we’re not commanded to fulfill the so-called “Great Commission!” That was given to the apostles strictly. We were/are called to be His witnesses to Kingdom life when His people are gathered.
One of the main excuses for building these huge organizations is to fulfill the “Great Commission,” afterall we really do need to dump millions into building projects in order to take care of our own people, right?
Until we allow the Spirit of God to empower us to live together as His Body in the simplicity and purity of the First Church, we will NEVER be more than a pile of brick and mortar.
Quote: “Like it or not, there are literally thousands of pastors and church leaders struggling to do their best and to please God; only to be ripped to shreds by their own congregation; then eaten up by well-meaning people here on this blog.”
I agree that the vast majority of those who have a heart for His Church are good people they, nonetheless, perpetuate their own misery by continuing the facade of modern-day “church.” However, there is hope from people who really care for them and wish to lead them to quieter pastures. But instead of seeing that they are pawns in a terrible game of chess, they hold onto their power and control.
Quote: “Like it or not, if churches, small, medium, or supersized, preach the gospel of Christ dying for our sins, and that there is only one way to heaven; there will be converts, and those converts will join all of us in heaven. We don’t need to make judgements on whether these converts are ‘real converts’ or not.”
But we do, Todd, because we do an injustice to the very souls we claim to “save” when we tell them that the Christian life can be accomplished simply by attending the Christianity 101, Discipleship 201 and Church 301 classes, which do nothing but make the convert more confused as to his/her position in Christ.
I hope that you’re not saying that just because someone makes a trip to the front and recites a prayer that they are saved, are you? Some, possibly, are, but the vast majority are not. Discipleship is a life-long process that can never be accomplished within the walls of a building or classroom.
So, who are we really helping?
Quote: “Like it or not, megachurches, while they can have a multiplied effect only because of their size, do not save entire communities, bring down crime rates, or stop all sinful practices in their area of influence any more than small churches do in their smaller communities of influence.”
Well, at least you’ve admitted that your remarks on a previous blog are unqualified.
My point is that we must, as the Body of Christ, begin to see that we are to live with EACH OTHER in such a way that exemplifies the incarnation of Christ (i.e., Divine manifested in the flesh) that evangelism is the natural byproduct of such living.
Instead, we plan and spend money in programs and other gimmicks to attract people to a place where they never experience the Kingdom life, the Divine life manifested. And then we wonder why they never return.
Ricky on Fri, June 03, 2005
Todd:
“But I think what really hurts you guys that feel like you need to call some of us ‘on the carpet’ is that you ‘call on the carpet’ for everything. Every idea. Every thought.”
That is simply not true, Todd.
If you would look back on the blogs upon which I posted, you will see that I (to my knowledge) never post on issues of non-importance, such as the color of the carpet or drapes, etc.
I post on the topics of great concern for me which is the Body of Christ and how it has been hijacked by the “experts.”
Sorry, but my passion for the Body of Christ compels me to stir it up from time to time.
jim g on Fri, June 03, 2005
Todd,
Here is my 2 cents. I have been following this blog for about 2-3 months. I enjoy most of the topics you pick. The corresponding responses leave me hot, cold and lukewarm, sometimes all at once.
I have responded to one of the topics. I have literally typed several other comments about other topics, and then erased them. I either did not like the turn the thread took, which made my thoughts meaningless, or I decided I was not willing to risk being attacked.
Unless the attitudes are more loving, respectful, and graceful, I am not sure I will respond on another one. But I will keep reading for the time being.
Thanks for listening,
Jim G
SPCT on Fri, June 03, 2005
I know this is a long post. But it is important. Please don’t gloss over it. Listen to what the Lord is saying. Please. They are “Christians”, they are many, they are subtle, they are utterly destructive. The enemy is among us.
To those who vociferously deny that any of these “super-apostle” evangelicals could actually be among them, then WHO is the Lord talking about? Radical Muslims? Radical Jews? Radical Buddhists? Atheists? No - they are the lost. The false prophets are of US.
Mat 24:3-5,10-11 (NIV) ...“Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” Jesus answered, “Watch out that no one deceives you, for many will come in my name,.. At that time many will turn away from the faith… and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.”
Deut. 18:20-22 (NIV) “A prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. You may say to yourselves, ‘How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?’ If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously…”
Deut 13:1-3 (NIV) “If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, ‘Let us follow other gods’ (gods you have not known) ‘and let us worship them,’ you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.”
Deut. 13:5 -8 (NIV) “That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God… He has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you. If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you,.. do not yield to him or listen to him…”
Jer 9:2-6 (NIV) “...For they are all adulterers, a crowd of unfaithful people. They make ready their tongue like a bow, to shoot lies; it is not by truth that they triumph in the land. They go from one sin to another; they do not acknowledge me,” declares the Lord. “Beware of your friends; do not trust your brothers. For every brother is a deceiver, and every friend a slanderer. Friend deceives friend, and no one speaks the truth… You live in the midst of deception; in their deceit they refuse to acknowledge me,” declares the Lord.
Jer 23:33-36 (NIV) “When these people, or a prophet or a priest, ask you, ‘What is the oracle of the Lord?’ say to them, ‘What oracle?..’ You must not mention ‘the oracle of the Lord’ again, because every man’s own word becomes his oracle and so you distort the words of the living God, the Lord Almighty, our God.”
Neh 9:26 (NIV) “But they were disobedient and rebelled ...They killed your prophets, who had admonished them in order to turn them back to you; they committed awful blasphemies.”
Isa 30:9-11,15 (NIV) These are rebellious people, deceitful children, children unwilling to listen to the Lord’s instruction. They say to the seers, “See no more visions!” and to the prophets, “Give us no more visions of what is right! Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions. Leave this way, get off this path, and stop confronting us with the Holy One of Israel!” This is what the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One of Israel says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it.”
Jer 5:11-13 (NIV) “The house of Israel and the house of Judah have been utterly unfaithful to me,” declares the Lord. “They have lied about the Lord; they said, ‘He will do nothing! No harm will come to us; we will never see sword or famine.’ The prophets are but wind and the word is not in them…” (Ez 13:7, De 29:19)
Jer 23:16-18 (NIV) This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord. They keep saying to those who despise me, ‘The Lord says: You will have peace.’ And to all who follow the stubbornness of their hearts they say, ‘No harm will come to you.’ But which of them has stood in the council of the Lord to see or to hear his word? Who has listened and heard his word?”
Jer 23:21-22 (NIV) “I did not send these prophets, yet they have run with their message; I did not speak to them, yet they have prophesied. But if they had stood in my council, they would have proclaimed my words to my people and would have turned them from their evil ways and from their evil deeds.”
Jer 8:6-9 (NIV) “I have listened attentively, but they do not say what is right. No one repents of his wickedness, saying, ‘What have I done?’.. My people do not know the requirements of the Lord. How can you say, ‘We are wise…’ Since they have rejected the word of the Lord, what kind of wisdom do they have?”
Lam 2:14 (NIV) “The visions of your prophets were false and worthless; they did not expose your sin to ward off your captivity. The oracles they gave you were false and misleading.”
Luke 6:26 (NAS) “Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for in the same way their fathers used to treat the false prophets.”
Jer 14:14 (NIV) “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries, and the delusion of their own minds.”
Jer 28:8-9 (NIV) [Jeremiah identifying Hananiah as a false prophet:] “From early times the prophets who preceded you and me have prophesied war, disaster and plague against many countries and great kingdoms. But the prophet who prophesies peace will be recognized as one truly sent by the Lord only if his prediction comes true.”
Micah 2:11 (NIV) “If a liar and deceiver comes and says, ‘I will prophesy for you plenty of wine and beer,’ he would be just the prophet for this people!”
Micah 3:5 (NIV) This is what the Lord says: “As for the prophets who lead my people astray, if one feeds them, they proclaim ‘peace’; if he does not, they prepare to wage war against him.”
Jer 8:10-12 (NIV) “From the least to the greatest all are greedy for gain; prophet and priest alike, all practice deceit. They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. ‘Peace, peace,’ they say, when there is no peace. Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush.”
Eph 5:6 (Jer) Do not let anyone deceive you with empty arguments: it is for this loose living that God’s wrath comes down on those who rebel against him. Make sure you are not included with them.
John 10:12 (Jer) “The hired man, since he is not the shepherd and the sheep do not belong to him, abandons the sheep and runs away as soon as he sees a wolf coming, and then the wolf attacks and scatters the sheep.”
Jer 23:30-32 (NIV) “Therefore,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. Yes,.. I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,.. They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least,” declares the Lord.
Mat 7:15, 20-23 (NIV) “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves… Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them… Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evil doers!’”
Isa 56:10-11 (NIV) “Israel’s watchmen are blind, they all lack knowledge; they are all mute dogs, they cannot bark; they lie around and dream. They are shepherds who lack understanding; they all turn to their own way, each seeks his own gain.”
2 Cor 11:19-20 (Jer) Oh, you’re tolerant all right! . Yes even to tolerating somebody who makes slaves of you, makes you feed him, imposes on you, orders you about and slaps you in the face.
Eze 13:17-19,22 (NIV) “Now, son of man, set your face against the daughters of your people who prophesy out of their own imagination. Prophesy against them and say,.. By lying to my people, who listen to lies, you have killed those who should not have died and have spared those who should not live… Because you disheartened the righteous with your lies, when I had brought them no grief, and because you encouraged the wicked not to turn from their evil ways and so save their lives…”
Jer 23:14-15 (NIV) “...They commit adultery and live a lie. They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness… Therefore, this is what the Lord Almighty says concerning the prophets: ‘I will make them eat bitter food and drink poisoned water, because from the prophets of Jerusalem ungodliness has spread throughout the land.’”
Jer 23:9-11 (NIV) “Concerning the prophets:.. ‘The land is full of adulterers;.. The prophets follow an evil course and use their power unjustly. Both prophet and priest are godless; even in my temple I find their wickedness,’ declares the Lord.”
2 Cor 11:13-15 (Phi) They are counterfeits of the real thing, dishonest practitioners masquerading as the messengers of Christ. Nor do their tactics surprise me when I consider how Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is only to be expected that his agents shall have the appearance of ministers of righteousness—but they will get what they deserve in the end.
1 Tim 4:1-2 (Phi) God’s spirit specificaly tells us that in later days there will be men who abandon the true faith and allow themselves to be spiritually seduced by teachings of demons, teachings given by men who are lying hypocrites, whose consciences are as dead as seared flesh.
Jer 23:25-29 (NIV) “I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, ‘I had a dream! I had a dream!’ How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds?.. Let the prophet who has a dream tell his dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?” declares the Lord. “Is not my word like fire,” declares the Lord, “and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?”
2 Pet 2:1 (NEB) But Israel had false prophets as well as true; and you likewise will have false teachers among you. They will import disastrous heresies, disowning the Master who bought them, and bringing swift disaster on their own heads.
Col 2:18-19 (Jer) Do not be taken in by people who like groveling to angels, and worshipping them; people like that are always going on about some vision they have had, inflating themselves to a false importance with their worldly outlook. A man of this sort is not united to the head…
Eph 4:14-15 (Jer) Then we shall not be children any longer, or tossed one way and another and carried along by every wind of doctrine, at the mercy of all the tricks men play and their cleverness in practicing deceit. If we live by the truth and in love, we shall grow in all ways into Christ, who is the head.
1 Jn 2:20-26 (Phi) God has given you all a certain amount of spiritual insight, and indeed I have not written this warning as if I were writing to men who don’t know what error is. I write because your eyes are clear enough to discern a lie when you come across it… For yourselves keep faithful to what you heard at the beginning. I had to write to you about these men who try to lead you astray.
Acts 20: 29-31 (Jer) “I know quite well that when I have gone fierce wolves will invade you and have no mercy on the flock. Even from your own ranks their will be men coming forward with a travesty of the truth on their lips to induce the disciples to follow them. So be on your guard…”
Mat 10:16-17 (Phi) “Here am I sending you out like sheep with wolves all round you; so be as wise as serpents and harmless as doves. But be on your guard against men…”
Luke 10:3 (NIV) “Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves.”
Mat 24:25 (Phi) “False christs and false prophets are going to appear and produce great signs and wonders to mislead, if it were possible, even God’s own people. Listen, I am warning you.”
Dean on Fri, June 03, 2005
Hi Todd
Don’t be disheartened, for in due season, you will reap if you do not faint and falter.
I believe we are in one of the most excruciating seasons of the Church scene in the United States. It is also a time of great potential for us to grow up spiritually as a generation of people who have by and large been very immature. Remember adolescence. Sorting through the maze of change trying to discern what is worth holding onto and what is not. That is the extent of change that we are going through right now. It creates a situation of great uncertainty, anxiety and honest questioning, albeit not always reflecting the best in any of us.
But those who endure to the end will be saved. It is good to fix our eyes on Jesus, the object of our faith, hope and love. Keep on keeping on. Fight the good fight of faith. Take hold of eternal life. Sometimes e-communication is easy to send off and so difficult to convey both truth and love. That makes a good case for the personal approach of brothers and sisters in face to face community, I think. We could all use some more of that.
I hope you have a good refreshing and uplifting weekend whoever you choose to spend it with. God bless you.
Dean
BeHim on Fri, June 03, 2005
TODD WRITES:
You only choose to validate my point. You find fault and/or something to fight about in everything. (As you would say EVERYTHING). You even found fault when I quoted my mother. Not cool.
BeHim responds:
Don’t miss the point of the statement. I included my mother as well and Confucius and Buddha but I’m sorry if you were personally offended. Please forgive me.
TODD WRITES:
And, while you find fault with everyting (at least ten things you quoted in your last post; the tone with which you come across does seem arrogant (at least to me).
BeHim responds:
Todd, my motive is encouragement. I understand it would seem arrogant and I’m sorry if my tone conveys arrogance, if it is/does, it’s in the flesh and please forgive me. If we were talking face-to-face my tone would be much clearer.
TODD WRITES:
You said, “Do you consider what we say is NOT Biblical?” No… but you seem to think most of the things the rest of us have to say IS.
BeHim responds:
Yes! You are correct when you say I believe Scripturally many of the statements/ideas/thoughts posted in the blogs are NOT Biblical. If they were, I would be in perfect agreement.
TODD WRITES:
There is a difference between having this be a blog that pastors want to come to for inspiration, ideas, and debate, and having a blog that in which a few individuals bombard any new idea or thinking saying that it is unbiblical. Really, it’s like, we’re your evangelism field. Well, we’re already converted! http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
BeHim responds:
Again, I come to the point of what should we inspire then to do? Give ideas for? Is knowing the Truth vital or is serving most vital?
Converted yes but do you teach correctly? Is The Message Biblical (as opposed to the method – I don’t know how many times I’ve said this, am I not clear?)?
TODD WRITES:
Absolutely. But, BeHim… it seems like everything that is said here is something that you feel like God wouldn’t like. In essence, your God (who is the same as my God) doesn’t like very much at all. You have to allow for other opinions when there is liberty to do so.
BeHim responds:
Why do you say “your God” then correct yourself and say it is the same God? I can tell you why. Because even YOU know our messages contradict so much that it is almost as if we serve two different Gods. This is THE point Todd! Do we serve two masters? So if we both say we serve The Master (The True and Living God whose Son is Jesus the Christ) and contradict each other in the essential doctrine of The Gospel, how can we both be right? One must be false and the other True. Isn’t it WORTH testing? Or should we walk away saying you have the right to believe what you want and do what you think God is calling you to do and I will do what I think God is calling me to do? I ABSOLUTELY believe one is Biblical and the other is not!
TODD WRITES:
Maybe that’s why I try to be such an encourager to pastors. Many times, pastors take a lot of unnecessary crap (for lack of a better word for it) off of their congregations. Many pastors and hurting; and need to be encouraged.
BeHim responds:
I do encourage them. Preach/teach The Truth. Teach others what the Scriptures say and how to search out matters for themselves (disciple them). I encourage them mostly to make sure they seek The Truth above all. Know Him and seek to understand the Scriptures.
If what you mean by encourage them is to make them feel better, give them comfort in this life, no. We don’t look for this life, we look for the next life, to come.
TODD WRITES:
That is one of the reasons I started this blog… so pastors could connect and feel a sense of community… a sense that “I’m not in this alone”.
BeHim responds:
I cannot tell you how encouraged I am to see other pastors boldly stating the Truth as I am. I have honestly felt like I’m the only one on earth that teaches/preaches these beliefs. Praise God for the encouragement.
TODD WRITES:
As it’s going though; pastors are signing on the blog wanting some comradery and friendship and support; only to find judgemental “thus saith the Lord” people who make them feel belittled.
BeHim responds:
There is no real nice way to say this Todd, maybe it’s not us/me belittling you, maybe the spirit is convicting you and it makes you angry. I know when the Lord opened my eyes and heart to these things, I was at times hurt and angry too.
Let me tell you a little bit about my back ground. I was raised Catholic, around age 8 my mom talked with a Protestant and was Truly Converted. The churches we attended from then on were churches that handed out tambourines when you walked in the door and yes, they “danced in the spirit”. So I got a great up-front look at “boring” and “entertaining”.
The Pentecostal churches lasted about 5 years until my mom started attending Calvary chapel, where “the Word came alive to her.”
I attended the Calvary Chapel Bible College and was for the most part raised their beliefs and methodology. It was then the Lord began to teach me True Doctrine and I must say, I can reduce it all down to one word: Sovereignty! Christians today know the “terms” but they don’t KNOW the meaning (have no knowledge or understanding) behind them.
It is my heart to shed light on these ESSENTIAL Doctines/beliefs to as many believers (pastors or otherwise) as I can. The fields are white for harvest, we don’t need more churches, more evangelism, more buildings, we need more teaching, more understanding, more discipleship.
Today discipleship is taught by picking up the latest “best seller” and reading it together, like a book club, and “discussing” the concepts and ideas in the book. Discipleship is shoulder to shoulder for years, reading, praying, encouraging, chastising, teaching, caring and praising together.
I hope pastors on this blog and all around the world would challenge what they believe. When I was in Calvary Chapel, I read all the books they recommended, all the magazines, bought the same tapes, went to the same crusades and conferences and guess what? I became what they were, not what Christ wanted. I suspect if you really considered yourself, that many (if you gave a true account) could say the same things about your denomination or “belief system”.
This is why we read the Bible through the lenses in which we learned. A mormon reads the Bible but through the lenses of the book of mormon. A Catholic may read the Bible but through the lenses of Catholocism. We all do it. We need to train ourselves to read the Bible through the “lenses” of the Holy Spirit. Don’t deceive yourself, this is HARD to do (even for me… I still battle it). Read outside your denomination, pick up other belief systems if for any reason to be able to defend the faith against it. Why do I have such a “discussion” about these things? Because I once believed as you do. All the Apostles could say that to the Jewish leaders …. We once believed as you do BUT GOD! Anyway, Selah (think about it).
TODD WRITES:
But really, it’s comments to the effect that I’m trying to “shut up the Holy Spirit” that cut the deepest, and serve as the highest example of the type of comment that is personally and corporately abhorant.
BeHim responds:
I’m sorry you are offended personally but really, test what I’ve said, not with your feelings or emotion but with Scripture. If it IS the Holy Spirit we hold back, how much greater the offense to Him.
TODD WRITES:
To be honest, BeHim, the Holy Spirit doesn’t need this blog to speak through…
BeHim responds:
God doesn’t need anything human or humanly to speak through! If men would not declare hosanna, Jesus said the rocks would! Creation is more in tune with Who God Is than many times we are!
TODD WRITES:
and if I continue to let you and a few others have their way then in a couple months it will be you and a handful of others here and that’s all.
BeHim responds:
Believe it or not, that IS what The Gospel does. It’s what Truth does. I encourage YOU Todd, to let it continue but if you choose, do so in my opinion, in the flesh.
If the argument/discussion stands, let it stand before men and angels, otherwise silence WILL prevail because no one has an account against the Scripture.
TODD WRITES:
(Kind of reminds me of the woman that came up to the pastor after his sermon and said, “The Holy Spirit said that I should come to your house for dinner.” The pastor replied that the Holy Spirit hadn’t communicated that to him yet and that until He does, she should probably make other plans!)
BeHim responds:
Neat story but what if the woman as supposed to eat dinner with the pastor? I for one would have had her over for dinner, what’s a little food compared to the possibility she is either sent from God OR an unbeliever looking for a free dinner.
TODD WRITES:
As I’ve said before… I love debate; and a fair amount of debate is great, even here. But when it turns personal, it really does turn people off. And that’s not what I’m about.
BeHim responds:
It got personal when many started calling us names and suggesting we were Pharisees and know-it-alls. I still have yet to make it personal. There’s no need to. Jesus said I would be called names and worse. Praise God “worse” hasn’t happened (YET).
SPCT WRITES:
So, if you don’t see it as most of the deception arising from within the church itself, where do you see it arising from? Deception can’t be outside the church—then it wouldn’t be deception?
BeHim responds:
Amen! This IS true! The unbelievers aren’t deceiving us, its unbelievers acting like believers OR Believers acting like unbelievers.
SPCT WRITES:
I ask in all humility because I think that is simply what these folks are warning us all against.
BeHim responds:
Sometimes the warning seems personal. Why? Because I warn against what the individual personally believes to be true. It doesn’t get any more personal than that.
TODD WRITES:
But I think what really hurts you guys that feel like you need to call some of us ‘on the carpet’ is that you ‘call on the carpet’ for everything. Every idea. Every thought. And, to be honest… it’s gets old really fast. As some have said before, it comes across as negative and arrogant because of the number of grievances you have; and because of the fact that we don’t know you.
BeHim responds:
A person’s ultimate starting point (be it right or wrong) will ultimately determine his ending point. And how close they are in the end depends on the distance they need to travel. When an ultimate presupposition (starting point) start with me/I/we/us, there will be a cavernous royal gorge between them and the person who starts with God Is or a person who starts with sin will end up in a far different place then the person who starts with His Blood.
A little bit of Levin in a correct belief can cause vast arrays of difference. Does not the Levin, Levin the entire loaf? It’s True today as it was yesterday. If my belief starts with the wrong understanding of God, it will take me further and further from the Truth.
The reason “everything” seems to be challenged deals directly with where you begin, especially on essentials.
TODD WRITES:
... I see a connotation there that you feel that you care of the body of Christ and thus you are right… but others here care about the body as well, maybe even as much as you; and have differing opinions. That’s the crux of the matter.
BeHim responds:
Maybe its not the caring (service) that is the issue but the point of the caring.
But here’s the real crux…. and think about this over the weekend Todd. Would God/Jesus/The Word/The Holy Spirit, contradict Himself? Of course not!. So if there is a contradiction in core belief (usually doctrinally - because a “position” is based on a belief or doctrine), then they both cannot be right. Isn’t it our JOB!!!! to find out THE Truth? If the “opinions” differ over CORE issues, it’s because of SIN, not God! So we MUST go to the Scriptures and search out the matter!
TODD WRITES:
Sometimes, some of you, rather than just lay people ‘out on the carpet’, wish rather to smear our face in a pile of dog doo doo while you’re at it.
BeHim responds:
Todd, it may “feel” that way, I’m sure Peter felt worse after he actually betrayed Jesus BUT that is by no means, my intent.
If we were talking face-to-face, we would be going through the Scripture and talking these things over. In writing, I have to correct where correction is needed. The issue when writing is, a person can go on and on without concern for the other person, even if they are wrong. When done face-to-face, I’ve rarely had to repeat twice to a person that they are seemingly leaning towards Judges 17. But I’ve repeated many times here.
SPCT
Just some food for deep thought.
BeHim responds:
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE take deep thought into this Todd. Please, I encourage you to do so. We don’t speak evil, it is good that we bring to this blog. Not for the world but for the Believing Leader.
It IS my heart that pastors would hear and understand these things many of us are trying to communicate (sorry that at times it seems offensive).
RICKY WRITES:
However, we’ve created dependent souls who feel that their only hope of “spiritual nutrition” is to come and be spoon-fed by professionals at least once week. This has led to a deadly atrophy within the Body of Christ. Instead of encouraging others to be responsible for their walk with the Lord, we have created spiritual welfare recipients. How does that really help them in the long run?
BeHim responds:
GREAT POINT!
BeHim on Fri, June 03, 2005
Amen to the Scriptures SPCT!
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