Caution to Haggard: You’re Deceiving Yourself
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Tue, November 18, 2008
- Viewed 98
- (28) comments so far
I don’t know about this one… OK… allow me to vent (and probably get myself in trouble...)
Haggard is selling life and disability insurance currently. Could that be a better fit for him in the Body of Christ?
I know that God forgives our screw-ups. And I am sooooo thankful for that. But is there a time, from a practical standpoint, that’s it’s just best, for the body, to bow out from practical ministry?
I can think of a ton of examples… some of which maybe should have called it quits, forever, from public ministry, and instead, celebrated God’s forgiveness privately while pursuing other careers.
I mean, if you think about it, there are tons of them… Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Sandi Patti, Michael English, Ted Haggard, Kirk Talley, Ray Boltz, Bishop Weeks, Earl Paulk, Randy & Paula White, etc.
Add to that the literally hundreds (probably thousands) of pastors and church leaders who fall every year morally who are shuffled around to another church, or returned to full ministry too quickly.
Some of these people can (and maybe should) have a future vibrant ministry and a public restoration. But I’m just not sure how many. I’m really torn.
What restoration is needed for a morally fallen pastor? Is the restoration process different from a ‘christian singer/entertainer’ point of view?
What if we just made the rule… look… you screw up morally and publically, you cannot return to public ministry in the same manner you enjoyed before… here or anywhere? It seems like that is one side of the spectrum that is not correct. But neither is announcing you’re divorcing your wife and then continuing with your sermon.
Would not having a ‘one strike and your out’ in public ministry be one added, very practical, thing for leaders to think about? Probably not. I still remember Ted Haggard sitting in that car with his wife (and kids in the back, I think) openly talking to the press, and openly untruthful about his situation. He put it ALL on the line. And lost everything. Is it too much to ask him not to try to regain it all back?
What is the proper balance?
Your thoughts?
Here’s the Deseret News Article...
There was an interesting article in the Deseret News about Ted Haggard and his first foray into speaking/preaching since his big scandal two years ago. The newspaper asked some of Ted's advisors about what they thought about his possible return to ministry. Interesting comments:
H. B. London: "Based on my experience working with recovering pastors, it would seem to be premature."
C. Peter Wagner: "He said in his letter to his congregation after he was fired that he is a liar and deceiver... He must have someone confirm him in the body of Christ" before he can preach again... Who besides Ted has ever stated that his restoration has been completed? No one."
Comments
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fishon on Tue, November 18, 2008
SLW,
Yes, grace and forgiveness is part of the gospel message. However, I wonder if you had the say if you would allow the Church treasurer who stole money from the church and was caught to become treasurer ever again?
fishon
fishon on Tue, November 18, 2008
slw said,
“Perhaps someone could explain the biblical mandate for all these “wait and see” policies. I find nothing in the scripture laying out those kinds of courses of action. Honestly, are we not just making them up as we go, not on the basis of scriptural principle but vengeance, maybe even jealousy, or some other merely human concern? As long as there is transparence, I see no biblical justification disqualification or probation.”
————Ok, slw, at what point are you going to reinstate the pedophile priest to his pastorate? Ok, not that guy, but what about the bishop who let him move from church to church—when do you make him bishop again?
fishon
e.b. on Wed, November 19, 2008
“I know that God forgives our screw-ups. And I am sooooo thankful for that. But is there a time, from a practical standpoint, that’s it’s just best, for the body, to bow out from practical ministry?”
Yes. There has been such a serious breech of trust and ethics in this case (and in many of the other named examples). I believe that adultery (among other things) occurring amongst professed Christian leaders should exempt them from further leadership and pastoral ministry. I wholeheartedly agree they should be counseled and restored back into the body of Christ, but I believe they should find other outlets for Christian service. There are many other positions beside pastoral-types of leadership where they ought to be permitted to serve once restored. Thank the Good Lord we don’t live under the Old Covenant where such breeches were capital offences, but we can learn from that punishment the seriousness of the sin.
CS on Wed, November 19, 2008
slw:
“Whereas I have no problem whatsoever with a waiting and proving period for someone attempting to become a church leader, once someone has crossed that threshold, the Bible tells us how to deal with failure while an elder (1 Tim 5:19-21). The biblical means is a public rebuke, not a semi-public scandal followed by a period of secret counseling and re-proving his or her qualifications.”
Well, let’s look at the qualifications for a bishop / pastor and see if there are any glaring holes caused by his actions:
“A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. (1 Timothy 3:2-7)”
I would say that since he does not have a good report with other pastors and with the Church at large, his poor behavior, and his use of illicit substances (derived from the issue of, “wine”) he is discounted from the role of pastor again. Yes, he should be publicly rebuked, but he also has to meet the qualifications of the office.
—
CS
slw on Wed, November 19, 2008
fison & CB,
What I hear from your comments, and I may be reading them incorrectly, is human wisdom and human convenience, not the application of God’s Word to the subject. I think we must make up our minds whether or not we believe the Bible and then act upon it, even when it’s painful, difficult or even distasteful.
When a sinning brother is mended by the spiritual, careful attention is to be paid to avoid a repeat of sin, but the “suspicion” is not to be directed at the fallen but the mending (Gal 6:10). An inquisitors board making an examination of worthiness through a lengthy period of proving is just not what’s entailed by scripture. What is called for, in the specific case of a church leader, is a public rebuke, short and sweet.
Generally, church leaders are people of calling, spiritual giftedness, determined by God not committee. There is not intimation anywhere in scripture that mere sin unravels the gift of the Holy Ghost, as if the one so gifted has something else he can do and still be right with the God who calls (Rom 11:29).
There are issues if the sin is predatory, like pedophilia, or some other sexual sins (as in 1 Thess 4:3-8), or cult-like false teaching. The right hand of fellowship can be extended to a failing brother who repents, but a club in the right hand is reserved for wolves. I suppose one could see Ted Haggard in that light, I’m in no position to make that kind of judgment. If one is considered a wolf, the church would be right to eschew him, but if one is a brother who failed and sincerely wants to overcome and move on with God, the church would be wrong to exclude him or his gift, or to make him jump through hoops for the judgmental pleasure of church or fellow elders.
DanielR on Wed, November 19, 2008
SLW, you said: Ted Haggard should have stood before his congregation, been publicly and specifically rebuked by another elder. He should have then publicly acknowledged the specific charges, and announced his sorrow over it, and his plan of dealing with and overcoming it. He could then have continued in ministry in an open and transparent manner, particularly over questions surrounding his failure,
If he wasn’t willing to be open about it, nor to be rebuked publicly for it, he should have been excommunicated.
This more or less what happened. He was publicly rebuked. He acknowledged the charges and his failing, although it looks like he wasn’t really honest about the facts. He then announced he was leaving ministry and entering a period of counseling and restoration to be overseen by a specific group of fellow ministers, after which he hoped to return to ministry.
Haggard voluntarily entered this restoration process and has NOT completed the it to the satisfaction of the chosen group of ministers. If he has not completed the process which he himself designed and agreed to, why is he now, in his own opinion, qualified to re-enter the ministry?
Ted Haggard was a very highly paid and influential pastor, he’s not going to earn that kind of money counseling people with sexual addictions.
Is this really a case of Ted Haggard being restored and ready to minister? Or is this a case of him needing a job and ministry being the best gig he can get?
slw on Wed, November 19, 2008
DanielR,
You may well be correct about Ted Haggard’s situation, more or less. I don’t recall his appearance before his congregation including specifics of his failure. It should have. Truth sets free, not obfuscation. But that aside, if the failing minister laid out a course of action, but is not following through with it, he ought to be treated in a more lupine fashion.
What boils my broth are arbitrary, unscriptural, vengeful responses to issues addressed in scripture. Imposed ministry “time-outs” or disqualifications over sin while an elder is a case in point. I have no problem with identifying false ministers and showing them the door. I do have a problem with treating the sincerely repentant like a poppet. Even though ministers do have a special standard to live up to, their failure should not be treated in such a perverse fashion that it countermands the gospel itself.
Jim Cassidy on Wed, November 19, 2008
I have two thoughts on the matter:
1. It is not, and should not, be about Ted Haggard. The church suffers, and doubt is strengthened when people like Ted Haggard return to the pulpit after just two years. Love God by bringing honor to His name. If people are inclined to judge the ministry because of Ted Haggard, then, if I were him, I would stay in the pews.
2. To characterize what Ted did as “one strike” is not correct. Ted struck out multiple times over a long period of time and lied about it. Because of his behavior, even his sermons were lies. His problems were not superficial. We should not be angry with him, nor should continue to blame himself; but, all of us need to understand that such deception goes deep. To root it out, you have to dig deep. That may take longer than two years.
The challenge is not to find a better fit for Ted Haggard. That is a personal challenge for Ted, his friends, and his family. The challenge is to find people who are fit for ministry. Is Ted Haggard at the top of the list? I do not think so. He could be a great friend, a terrific neighbor and a much improved husband, but . . . it isn’t about Ted Haggard.
Leaders and pastors must be chosen by the pastoral standards of Timothy and Titus.
Brent on Thu, November 20, 2008
I remember when a well known ministry went through some personal issues, and I as a young arrogant minister made a bold statement, “he needs to step down for a while, and maybe shouldn’t even be allowed to pastor.”
The following year the exact same thing happened to me. I then walked a mile in his shoes.
Probably because I have big mistakes in my past, that still haunt me, I tend to lean towards the side of mercy.
Yes, there needs to be restoration and integrity. But didn’t Jesus restore Peter after Peter denied that he knew Jesus. How is that any different than any other sin? Or is it because Ted was caught in “sexual sin?” Which in the church seems to be way worse than greed, lying, gossip… etc?
I’m glad i’m not the one who has to make an official decision. I know I learned my lesson all those years ago.
Tony Scialdone on Sat, November 22, 2008
When men and women call someone to ministry, they have the prerogative of suggesting that someone is, or is not, ready to serve. When God calls someone to ministry, what we think should make no difference.
Don’t get me wrong: I’m tough on leaders, and had to deal with this problem when my pastor faked his own death and ran away. My standards for leaders are very high, and if Ted came to me for advice I’d caution him strongly. Everyone should enjoy many counselors, including some who strenuously disagree…and Ted is no different. If he wonders whether returning to leadership at this time is wise, I’d love to sit down with him and talk about it.
The point is that, if God called Ted to ministry, then only God can lead him back at the perfect time (if at all). Our speculation means less than nothing when it comes to what’s RIGHT.
[email protected] on Mon, November 24, 2008
Many years ago a wonderful Bible teacher, Woody Phillips, asked me this question concerning a fallen leader. When David sinned and confessed to that sin did he stop being king of Israel? The answer is obvious, NO, but he did have to live with the consequences of his sin. Having written a restoration plan for several local leaders who fell I believe that restoration is not only possible and probably preferable in the sceme of God’s restoration program of restoring us to the place we had before our fall, namely full fellowship and functionality under His oversight. Can Ted Haggard be restored? YES. Will there be life long consesquences to his fall? YES. Our problem is determining when and how that process looks in our world. I am not sure that anyone can REALLY tell you what that looks like. I appreciate those who seek to show us that vision. Their efforts and work are hard and difficult as I can appreciate.
E.B. on Mon, November 24, 2008
“When David sinned and confessed to that sin did he stop being king of Israel? The answer is obvious, NO, but he did have to live with the consequences of his sin. “
I was wondering when someone would bring that up. My question is then: Is there a difference between between being a king and a priest, and which is a pastor more akin to? What were the consequences for sinful priests in OT times? I recall Eli’s sons were punished harshly.
[email protected] on Mon, November 24, 2008
E.B. Good comments, I confess that I don’t know the answer to your question about pastors being priest or king. My quick answer it that I don’t think they are either. Jesus is the king and priest of all but I realize that sometimes pastors seem to be one or the other. In some ways that seems to be, in my mind, a mistake as I think it tends to draw the brethren toward men rather than the Man Jesus Christ. Perhaps the root problem with every pastor’s sin is that they he tends to become the priest or the king when in reality he is nothing more than a servant to the King and Priest. Thanks for the question, perhaps others might enlighten this ignorant servant. cb
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