Christian Generosity?! I Don’t Think So…
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Tue, November 04, 2008
- Viewed 118
- (16) comments so far
A mere $500 million, for instance, would close the funding gap needed to eradicate polio globally by 2010, they estimate, while $10 billion would sponsor 20 million needy children worldwide for food, education and healthcare.
From Reuters: "U.S. Christians have a reputation for generosity -- but when it comes to supporting their own churches, it turns out most are stingy."
The extent of their penury is outlined in a new book, "Passing the Plate: Why American Christians Don't Give Away More Money" by Christian Smith and Michael Emerson.
It reveals that 20 percent of U.S. Christians give no money to their church, and that many who do donate fall far short of the 10 percent of income their churches traditionally expect.
According to the book, if American Christians could somehow find a way to move to practices of reasonably generous giving, they could generate, over above what they currently give, a total of another $133.4 billion a year to devote to whatever purposes and needs they would choose."
So... what could we do with $133 BILLION DOLLARS?...
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Bruce on Tue, November 04, 2008
Todd asks:
So… what could we do with $133 BILLION DOLLARS?
Well we can only judge by what Churches have done in the past with what they already have. Buildings, staff. Programs. Helping the fat get fatter.
Why would I want to throw any more money down a rat hole? Many American Churches squander money and then beat parishioners over the head with tithing verses in hopes of extorting more money out of them.
Just because the Pastor and the board think they have a “message” from god to do something doesn’t mean I am obligated to pay for it.
I for one do not think tithing has any place in the new covenant. God wants us to be gracious givers and certainly if the Church deserves it some money should be sent her way. But, there are many other worthy causes that our giving can be directed towards and people should be encouraged to give liberally to wherever they desire.
The whole notion of the tithe and the Church being the “Storehouse” has no place in a NT Church.
Jim in NJ on Tue, November 04, 2008
While I agree that some churches are poor stewards of the gifts from God’s people, I think most churches are very frugal in how the money is spent. Don’t measure all churches by the public abuses of a few megachurch leaders.
I am sorry that Bruce has had such a negative experience with the local church. That is obvious from his hostile comments.
It is simple. If you are a member or an active participant in the church and can afford to support it, you should. To not do so makes you a freeloader and a fraud. Tithing should be a decision between an individual and God. I happen to believe in tithing to my local church and making gifts over and above that to other ministries and charities.
I do encourage people to be involved and ask questions about how church funds are expended. If that information is not made public, or if members have no input, that would be a good enough reason for me to question my future involvement in the church.
I speak as the (unpaid) treasurer of a church of about 600. I have made it my policy (and by extension the church’s) to be confidential in giving, but very open in information on spending. Members may disagree with how some money is spent, but they should know what is going on. Hiding information on finances is one indication of a church that is headed for trouble. Likewise, one person (even the senior pastor) should not have sole decision making authority on spending without some kind of independent oversight.
Bruce on Tue, November 04, 2008
Jim,
Just reality friend. Dismiss my comment as negative experience makes it easy doesn’t it?
Would you like specifics? Churches I attended? Grew up in? Pastored?
Let me make it simple…......the standard, for me anyway, is how much money is spent outside of the Church in works of mercy and justice. After buildings, salary, and self perpetuating programs there is not much money left. Often the answer is to beat the sheep with tithing/faith promise/paycheck sunday/stewardship sermons. Whatever it takes to get more money in the plate.
In my opinion…...buildings are too big and fancy. Simplicity and austerity should be the rule. Instead of enslaving the Church with staff salaries, benefits, and the like, pastors should get real jobs in the real world. The get fat, self-help, feel good, inward drawn programs should be eliminated and every dime that can be, should be directed to ministry outside the Church….....in loving our neighbors as ourselves.
Smaller or no buildings, unpaid or little paid staff, and no programs that draw us inward…......that’s my plan.
No more constant money pressure. No more annual fund raising drives. No huge Church plants to maintain.
Maybe, just maybe….....the whole system is broke and we need to start over. Nah….....too easy to dismiss guys like me with our negative experiences.
We do agree on one thing…......there should be complete transparency with Church finances. Every dime of spending should be documented and justified. Not a generic budget or financial statement but a complete line by line accounting of the spending (and the income taken in)
There is a good bit of financial sleight of hand that goes on in Churches. That is why I don’t support what I can not document. Yeah I know, cynical. But maybe, just maybe, there is a reason for my cynicism.
Bruce
J.R. on Tue, November 04, 2008
While I don’t hold all of Bruce’s views including his political ones - yes, I read your blog http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif - I have to confess that over the last couple of years I’ve started to lean towards his way of thinking regarding church spending. I disagree about the staff salaries but totally agree about the buildings and austerity. I’ve sat on the board and seen the waste with no authority to change it. I’ve seen the generic budgets with no accountability except among the pastor and executive pastor. I’ve seen some of the “work ethic” and unwillingness to hold employees accountable to a high standard and quality of work. The last couple of years I have begun to send my money to things I feel will get used more wisely and have started contributing those causes, or more likely, to specific individuals in need. After all, we are to be good stewards of our money, are we not?
My church is in the process of starting yet another building campaign. I will not be signing the commitment card. :0 I can’t stomach another set of classrooms for Sunday when there are people who need to be fed or clothed or just loved.
Bart on Tue, November 04, 2008
How would we spend the money? Because we have in many churches lost the focus of what we are to do, feed the poor, take care of widows and orphans, etc, as the government has taken over these roles, it would be difficult for many churches to find ministry to spend the money on. But Bruce, I take GREAT offense at you calling my church a rat hole. We are a church of 200 attenders and over 60% of our budget goes to ministry outside of our church. My church is the bride of Christ and you just threw mud on her. That’s right, as she stands in her white dress waiting for the bridegroom you just threw a handfull of mud on her. Go home and wash your hands berfore the bridegroom shows up. I could throw out all kinds of accusations about your views but out of respect I will decline.
Andy Wood on Tue, November 04, 2008
The last stats I heard on the subject are that the typical American gives away 2% of his/her money, as does the typical professing Christian. So much for the change that Jesus is supposed to make in people’s lives.
And yeah, that tithing thing is so Old Testament - sort of like prohibitions to murder and adultery. Let’s just decide never to be cheerful again, then we won’t have to give anything away.
Jim in NJ on Wed, November 05, 2008
Bruce –
Your reply simply makes my point. You have had bad experiences in several churches and, as a result, have a very negative view toward all churches and pastors.
As for paid staff, doesn’t scripture tell us that a workman is worthy of his hire? The question is what are they doing with their time? Are they reaching lost and hurting people? I know that in our church we have both paid staff and unpaid volunteers working together, and both complement each other.
A good question about a church building is how it is being used. If it is just Sunday morning and Wednesday evening, then the building might be going to waste. However, if worthwhile programs are going on daily in these buildings, how can you call it a waste? These activities have to go on somewhere, either a church owned building or rented facilities, except for those gatherings small enough to be held in people’s homes.
J.R. – It is painful to see your backhanded dismissal of Sunday School as being of little value. Which is of more value, spiritual teaching and outreach or social and physical outreach? I think both are important, but social and physical outreach without God is, in the end, not worth very much.
I do agree that there does appear to be far too much excessive and wasted spending in certain churches. The worst examples seem to be in many of the “showy” televangelists in their $1,000 suits and former sports arenas, but even then I admit I don’t know what those churches spend in their communities. I’d just like to see a little less ostentatious behavior in public
Let’s just remember, our first command, even above caring for widows and orphans, is to spread the gospel. Let’s measure our financial and our overall effectiveness by that goal first above all others..
Jesse on Mon, November 10, 2008
I am one of those people that is all about getting our resources beyond the walls of the church building. I too get a little frustrated with how much we have to spend inside the walls so to speak, but on the flip side, we do not have a fancy building, we’ve had to lay off three staff members (and I’m next on the list if people don’t consistently give). And the frustrating thing is that about 33% of of our church carries 80% of the budget. Tithes and offerings are not about how much bang you get for your buck, its about pooling resources and sustaining the body. If you look at Acts you will see that they went beyond tithing where their giving was concerned. I also personally think that we can go beyond tithing if we recognize ourselves as conduits of God’s blessing. Yes we have to pay our bills and such, but if we structure our lifestyle in a way that is not extravagent, we can give consistently to our church, and then give additionally to other things like sponsoring children, supporting missionaries, donating to relief organizations who share the love of CHrist while addressing physical needs. *I think that its better to have our own personal choice of different organizations to support in that way, as opposed to doing it all through the larger body. Beyond that we can give of our time to a soup kitchen or to consistently meeting with a person that needs prayer and counsel with issues in their life. Even in that though, remember in Acts where some people were designated to be in charge of the needs for the poor, while other were focusing on prayer and teaching. We’re not all going to be serving in the same capacities, and some people can do it as a volunteer and others are called to it as their full time job.
But I think that there’s something that people overlook when they say we need to give more to the poor and all that (which I agree we do as a whole). They overlook what the great commission was. Go and make disciples over all the nations and baptize them into the reality of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. A good church, whether they operate out of a building or not, needs to have a strong focus on making disciples, on spiritual formation, worship that is in spirit and truth. I believe that staff who are gifted in that and are called to give their lives to that should be supported financially. And there are always additional people who can volunteer some of their time to do that as well. God has different plans for different bodies around the world, some need more facilities and staff to fulfill that calling, others don’t. We shouldn’t say that all churches have to do things the same way when it comes to finances. But they should all be handling them in a way that is Kingdom centered.
Edgar Fishbine on Mon, November 10, 2008
The church I go to, no one can find out what the pastor makes. Hows that for accountable? We have asked and they say no, the elders have made a decision and it is not for the church members to know?
Edgar
PT on Mon, November 10, 2008
A lot of intriguing comments revealing personal opinions and experiences. Conspicuously missing is much about what GOD has declared, what the Lord expects, and what pleases the Spirit.
I challenge Jim, or anyone else, to name the portion Scripture that says God’s plans and desires for our financial stewardship and giving has fundamentally changed from the OT to the New. It just isn’t there, folks.
It is an argument of what isn’t repeated and therefore assumed out of convenience to have changed. Says who? God and His Word are unchanging. Unless He directly indicates a new way of doing something, we are to accept that the last stated continues to be the case. Yes, there are NT references that speak to a clarification of the attitude and spirit that is to accompany giving - but no where is the existing form challenged, changed, or abolished.
That form is detailed throughout the OT as giving that begins with a 10% tithe, includes other offerings above and beyond that - all of which is to be brought to the House of God and entrusted to His chosen ministers.
Deuterononomy 14:23 clearly indicates a process that is expected to be used to honor God “always.”
The Harvest Feast (also known as the Feast of Weeks, Shavuot, Day of First Fruits, Feast of Wheat, and Pentecost) was the God-declared and never rescinded pre-resurrection form for most of this giving. Check it out carefully: Lev. 23:15-25; Ex. 23:16-19; Dt. 16:9-12. What about post-resurrection? Jeremiah 31:31; 1 Co. 15:22-23; 16:2 and Acts 2 all clearly indicate a direct connection between the Harvest Feast and the Church of Christ under the New Covenant.
There are only two changes indicated by Scripture. One, that rather than give all once-a-year God instructs to begin giving in kind on the first day of every week. Two, that returning a tithe or more of the material harvest to the stewardship of God’s ministers is to concurrently advance the harvesting of souls in the power of the Spirit now present in every redeemed believer.
Regarding the issue of “freewill” and “cheerful” giving don’t miss the clear Scriptural context that this refers to the heart and spirit of giving - and NEVER as an exception or excuse to give anything less than a tithe or to give it anywhere other than the “storehouse.” Also, please be sure to read Dt. 16:10-11a in its context. The freewill offering is introduced and defined here as “feeling free to give over and above the tithe if you have been blessed to do so.” No where in Scripture are God’s people given permission or encouraged to freely give less.
Regarding some of the more practical points that have been the bulk of the comments so far: Yes, accountability is greatly important! Yes, believers should have a voice in maintaining that their churches are exercising biblical stewardship of God’s finances. Yes, that doesn’t always happen and there are far too many wolves in sheep’s clothing. But, isn’t this really an issue of church polity and discernment in which local church we covenant our fellowship with?
Where, oh where, does Scripture ever instruct us: “give your full offering to the Lord’s House, EXCEPT in those cases where you don’t like, don’t know, or aren’t comfortable with how the appointed stewards use it”? Is not God ultimately the judge of that? Is not Scripture clear that as is the case in so many other issues, God judges each of us on our individual faithfulness to His Word and HE will judge others regarding how they respond (honor or take advantage) of that faithfulness?
If church leaders waste or misuse God’s funds, is not God wise, just and all-knowing enough to deal with them Himself? If God tells us to give in a prescribed manner without other preconditions and we decide another way would be more appropriate is that then sin on our part?
Jim in NJ on Mon, November 10, 2008
PT –
You have certainly given much more thought and study to the issue of tithing than I so I won’t dispute with you.
However, I really have a problem with people feeling they have to stay and support a church that is not operating according to God’s word.
I am really frustrated by church members who begin to worship their leaders instead of God. When your church leadership either openly sins and refuses repentence, run, don’t walk the other way. Your loyalty has to be to God rather than to a church, or a pastor. There has just been so much of it lately among televangelists, who continue to be supported by their pastor-worshipping members.
If money is being spent unwisely, if finances are hidden from the congregation, if the leadership is involved in open and flagrant sin, why do you stay, let alone support such a church?
Now if you feel God is telling you to stay, I am certainly not going to tell you to disobey God. But I would tell you to test the spirit of what you think God is saying to you. The best way is to search the scriptures and decide whether what you feel you are told is consistent with the Bible. If it is, I would certainly be obedient. If it isn’t, then you must consider if you are hearing God’s orders or those of someone else.
PT on Mon, November 10, 2008
Jim,
Thanks for the thoughtful and soulful reply!
I absolutely empathize with frustration over a ministry that is NOT exercising biblical stewardship. In fact, while I am a proponent of biblical perseverance, and ‘sticking it out’ even in a troubled, mistake-filled fellowship, I DO recognize that blatant and repentant teaching and/or practice which is unbiblical by a church and it’s leadership to be grounds for breaking membership. However, even so, the bottom line remains prayerful discernment of God’s will for you in that situation - flee the sin and stay and be part of a hopeful solution.
Still, none of this is patently relevant concerning how and how much each individual Christian should give to their local church. If you believe the situation to be that bad, grounds for leaving membership, and discern God’s moving in this then do so and find biblically faithful church. In the meantime, it is still your individual responsibility to faithfully and cheerfully give unto the Lord as He has prescribed us through the local church.
In NO WAY will I ever defend a ministry or minister that is in any way unbiblical (in practice or spirit) concerning their financial stewardship.
What I am proposing, however, is that USING our giving to the church as a form of approval/disapproval and/or form of leverage (I’ll give to whichever ministry impresses me the most, best matches my personal beliefs of how my (cough, cough) money is being used, etc.) is NEVER acceptable, appropriate or biblical.
Give biblically or through due process leave respectfully and go give biblically to another local body you will covenant with. This idea of staying, but giving discretionally or according to personal whim and agenda however is purely of the world and the Prince of this world and not Scripture!
My perspective, anyway. Would love to hear any others - just ask they be biblically supported.
LARRY C on Tue, November 11, 2008
Yea, Bruce. I’ve noticed how men and women are just flocking to Christian colleges and seminaries by the tens of thousands so they can work and study hard for 7 to 8 years because at the end of that they will be heir own boss, get paid an enormous salary and only have to work few hours….. WOW! Sign me up.
I agree, though, tithing is not the NT requirement. But, as I read today, Jesus said we should sell all that we have and give it to the poor. Wooops! I’m 90% short of that.
thanhvn on Tue, December 09, 2008
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