Christians: Are We As Generous As We Think We Are?
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Wed, November 16, 2005
- Viewed 107
- (35) comments so far
Here?s a passage from Ron Sider?s The Scandal of the Evangelical Conscience:
John and Sylvia Ronsvalle have been carefully analyzing the giving patterns of American Christians for well over a decade. Their annual The State of Christian Giving is the most accurate report for learning how much Christians in the richest nation in human history actually give. In their most recent edition, they provide detailed information about per-member giving patterns of U.S. church members from 1968 to 2001. Over those thirty-plus years, of course, the average income of U.S. Christians has increased enormously. But that did not carry over into their giving. The report showed that the richer we become, the less we give in proportion to our incomes.
In 1968, the average church member gave 3.1 percent of their income ? less than a third of a tithe. That figure dropped every year through 1990 and then recovered slightly to 2.66 percent ? about one quarter of a tithe.
Evangelical giving, consistently higher than that of mainline denominations, has fallen from 6.15 percent in 1968 to 4.27 percent in 2001. Sider again:
As we got richer and richer, evangelicals chose to spend more and more on themselves and give a smaller and smaller percentage to the church. Today, on average, evangelicals in the United States give about two-fifths of a tithe.
In 2002, Barna discovered that only 6 percent of born-again adults tithed ? a 50-percent decline from 2000 when 12 percent did. And in 2002, just 9 percent of Barna?s narrow class of evangelicals tithed.
These figures are staggering. Churchgoers in the US are falling far short of the bare minimum amount of giving that their Scriptures ask.
Poverty is an enormous problem. The Bible is very clear about how important it is for Christians to meet this enormous need. While we?re certainly giving a lot of money to these efforts, we could be giving more. We should be giving more.
Look, I?m certainly open to arguments that we should rely less on government aid to relieve and reduce the extreme poverty around the world. But you have to prove to me that something else will fill the void. You think that something else should be the Church? Great. So do I.
Let?s talk about how to make that happen.
This comes from the "From the Salmon" blog… on the subject of giving trends…
Comments
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Todd Rhoades on Wed, November 16, 2005
Bernie’s bootlegging copies of this book at his website.
Talk about great stewardship!
http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Todd
Peter Hamm on Wed, November 16, 2005
Actually, Todd, perhaps the reference on Bernie’s post should be removed if that’s the case. I mean… isn’t every copy that is distributed freely money taken from the pocket of the author? Is there a copyright notice in the file? Doesn’t distributing the book require written permission from the author?
Perhaps Bernie has this permission? I don’t know.
I have other thoughts… but in deference to the spirit of your site, I’m not gonna go there… (But I AM gonna tithe this week… to my local church… -also my place of employment- and yes, I think it’s GREAT stewardship!)
http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/tongue_wink.gif
Peter
Bernie Dehler on Wed, November 16, 2005
I have permission from the author to offer his book for free download.
“Should the Church Teach Tithing?” by Dr. Russell Kelly
http://www.freegoodnews.com/REK-Tithing2.pdf
...Bernie
Abbey on Wed, November 16, 2005
Confused here: Isn’t stewardship more the attitude of returning a portion of all we have, and tithing the actual act of giving money? I’m not going to download that book Bernie, if it’s going to be dishonest.
I agree that stewardship needs to be taught, but I really think that tithing is important. Since I understood the concept I have rarely missed a tithe and it thrills me to plunk a big ole check in the plate (We get paid monthly). I know I am blessed for it - that is evident in our finances.
Stewardship is a tougher subject though, because you are dealing with attitudes of what we supposedly “own”, or are in possession of. But it’s also tougher because good stewardship is not only the attitude, but it’s what, in a practical sense, comes AFTER you have received the tithe into the church.
I’ve erased 15 sentences here because I just can’t seem to separate the two concepts, if they need to be apart. If you have the attitude of being a good steward and you are working to do that, then obviously your would want to tithe, wouldn’t you? And you probably also give canned goods to the food bank, and donate your kids winter coats at WalMart, and spread around the hand-me-downs, and bake dinner for the neighbor with a broken leg, etc.
Am I really just agreeing with Bernie? (horrors, ha ha) But why is teaching tithing wrong? Obviously people AREN’T doing it or have cut back on doing it and this is a problem for churches.
Bernie Dehler on Wed, November 16, 2005
Abbey said:
“I’m not going to download that book Bernie, if it’s going to be dishonest.”
Abbey, how much can I pay you to read the book? How about if I fill your gas tank?
Just kidding… referring to the other article about paying people to come to church…
Peter Hamm on Thu, November 17, 2005
Bernie says “Abbey, how much can I pay you to read the book? How about if I fill your gas tank?”
LOL Bernie! That’s a good one! (But I’m still gonna tithe… and I agree with Abbey on that one.)
How ‘bout the larger question of declining giving in churches, though? Before we get side-tracked, regardless of how you feel about tithing, couldn’t it be that our lifestyles and appetites are outgrowing our finances?
We work more hours (for what seems like less money) than our parents did, we used to have just one phone at home, now everyone in the family is chewing up minutes/dollars on the cell phones, we’re paying for high-speed internet (so we can read Todd’s blog, of course)…
Instead of paying 300 bucks for a 27” TV, we’re paying 3000 for a 42” plasma set, we are increasingly buying more and more expensive furniture and clothing it seems, and credit card debt is so out of control and savings are at an all-time low.
Is it possible that the problem is a cultural one more than a “religious” one? How can the church help educate us on how to live more simply, more “reasonably”… which would be better stewardship of what God gives us, don’t you think?
PS And if Bernie fills up MY gas tank, I will read the book… Anybody else in on that one?
Abbey on Thu, November 17, 2005
Bernie it costs about $45 to fill up my tank, so I think just buying the book would be cheaper all around! And I will download it since you said you had permission.
Gotta agree with Peter. I have been struggling with the simplicity issue for a long time - it has made my family downsize our house to begin with. I would love to hear some messages on that style of stewardship - simplicity. I know that if I am struggling over it others must be too.
We’ve always practiced simplicity as best we can, but gee whiz, you add the kids in there and it gets HARD. I find myself mentally passing judgement on what I conside excesses in their lives and wondering if they tithe, why they put all those things in higher priority than church and God. Even as I think these things I pray that God will order their lives so that they place Him first.
There is so much pressure from society that is in direct opposition to being a good steward - like the mountain of debt folks accrue, and NOT saving, and all that brain dead time in front of the TV (and computer hee hee).
I read a neat article that described how, in the days before all this in-home media, people didn’t turn off their brains like we do in front of the tube. Their down time was filled with WORK and more work and study and books and people.
I really do long for simplicity, when life revolved around the church family as well as your own and that was the focal point of people’s activities.
sort of off subject I know, but stewardship of our time is a big thing with me. It’s part of the reason we homeschool.
bernie dehler on Thu, November 17, 2005
Peter and Abbey, I think you are on the right track, regarding simplicity. However, TBN TV with people like John Hagee, Kenneth Copeland, and TD Jakes are teaching a prosperity gospel which is advocating just the opposite; chasing money in the name of God and the gospel. You have to fight not only the world and worldlinenss, but many in “the church.” I hope you both join the revolution… the reformation. When the “church” is what it should be, then we’ll have a chance at revival.
...Bernie
bernie dehler on Thu, November 17, 2005
By the way, Todd lets me post the above message, so there’s hope. Most (almost all) church boards wouldn’t… too divisive. This is how and why the false gospel and prosperity teachers are able to multiply and proliferate.
...Bernie
Peter Hamm on Thu, November 17, 2005
Bernie,
First, may I say how much I enjoy our exchanges. I actually look forward to them! You say “TBN TV with people like John Hagee, Kenneth Copeland, and TD Jakes are teaching a prosperity gospel which is advocating just the opposite”. I agree!
I want to restate what a friend said years ago when the news came out about Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggert. Those people are NOT the “mainstream” of Christ-followers. They are just TV personalities with titles like Reverend and Bishop. They are to the church as reality television is to reality. (in other words… no real 1:1 correllation)
The “mainstream” is a whole different story, and much less visible, because those of us who are smart (and I will include some famous individuals here, like Rick and Bill…) do NOT have TV shows!
And I for one am THRILLED that Todd lets you post your messages. I probably disagree with you on so much stuff, and yet… I respect you and want to hear you. Hey… maybe WE are the “mainstream” of the church!
Love ya, brother!
Peter
PS… So… any other ideas why we in the church aren’t giving anymore like we did not too long ago? You all have heard from us loudmouths…
http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/tongue_wink.gif
Michael Rew on Thu, November 17, 2005
I agree that the Church, not the government, should be caring for the poor and those down on their luck. Unfortunately, there are some hard realities:
Take Katrina. I have not looked at final figures yet, but from various sources, I am fairly certain the government’s very first pledge of ten billion dollars exceeded all private donations to Katrina relief. When it comes to people holding hands out for relief, they will go to the government first, because the government forces everyone to give. I should care for the poor? I pay 6.2 percent of my paycheck to Social Security, matched by my employer, to pay for often able-bodied retirees along with others who no longer can work. This does not include sales taxes, property taxes, car taxes, and other taxes and fees I pay directly or indirectly to feed, clothe, house, educate, and protect fellow Americans. Puh-lease. I am already paying between thirty to fifty percent of my income in taxes!
Second, those who are poor and choose not to improve themselves with handups will remain poor the next time a survey is taken. Nevertheless, those who choose to remain in the situation which makes them poor often will receive taxpayer-subsidized relief, anyway. Why should they come to a church or ministry to which I give when, with persistence and the right shibboleths, they can get government money with few or no strings attached and without having to listen to someone preach to them about how God can improve their lives?
Third, there will always be poverty. It cannot be eliminated. Both the Law and Jesus testified to this matter.
Fourth, I am told to work to support myself, but I am told to go to church more, which will cut into time I am available for work, but I am told to give more, although if I work less, I have earn less to give, but I am told to save for the future, but I am told not to worry about tomorrow. Most of you, I assume, know of what I speak. Has anyone considered just how confusing all of these messages coming out of the pulpit can be?
Bernie Dehler on Thu, November 17, 2005
Michael said:
“Take Katrina. I have not looked at final figures yet, but from various sources, I am fairly certain the government’s very first pledge of ten billion dollars exceeded all private donations to Katrina relief. “
I heard one political expert say about the looting, when it was happening, “you haven’t seen anything yet.” He meant the real ‘looting’ will take place when the big money starts flowing in, and the politicians and others take and play with it. The white-collar looting by people in business suits may well dwarf the blue-collar on-the-street looting.
Make sure you give your money to a reputable source. Many are raising warning flags about the American Red Cross. NW Medical Teams is a very responsible one… my pick for my money.
Abbey on Thu, November 17, 2005
Re: those TV preachers and the prosperity gospel - ICK ICK AND DOUBLE ICK. I can’t stand them and don’t watch any TV preacher on ANY station for fear that my “ears will be tickled” and I won’t be able to discern anything.
I guess I never thought about them contributing to the whole me-me-gimme-prosperity attitude because I don’t take them seriously. I mean be for real “Open your wallet and money will appear if you have enough faith.” Yet, I have friends who follow Creflo Dollar like he’s a…well…a god.
So Michael I really agree with you. Hasn’t the church fallen down on its obligations and ALLOWED the gov’t to pick up the tab? That is one of the reasons, when my hubby was ordained, we chose to withdraw from the Soc Sec Sys on our religious beliefs. It’s why I’m fighting for the Fair Tax (fairtaxvolunteer.org) and why I believe we can’t be good Christians without being politically active.
And you’re also right about there always being the poor.
Sometime I just want to yell “STOP” and rewind the clock to like 50 years ago (as long as I can keep my internet provider and microwave.)
Peter Hamm on Thu, November 17, 2005
Whoever said this said it best…
“Kill your television.”
http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/tongue_wink.gif
Bernie Dehler on Thu, November 17, 2005
Abbey said:
“I guess I never thought about them contributing to the whole me-me-gimme-prosperity attitude because I don’t take them seriously. I mean be for real “Open your wallet and money will appear if you have enough faith.” Yet, I have friends who follow Creflo Dollar like he’s a…well…a god. “
I heard we have a local church teaching the same thing… probably got it from TV, no doubt…
Look at the lifestyle of TD Jakes. I guess once you pay your 10%, plus a little more to prove how godly you are, then it’s perfectly fine to be greedy… I mean “blessed.” Isn’t that how most of the preachers put it?
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