Christians: Are We As Generous As We Think We Are?
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Wed, November 16, 2005
- Viewed 99
- (35) comments so far
Here?s a passage from Ron Sider?s The Scandal of the Evangelical Conscience:
John and Sylvia Ronsvalle have been carefully analyzing the giving patterns of American Christians for well over a decade. Their annual The State of Christian Giving is the most accurate report for learning how much Christians in the richest nation in human history actually give. In their most recent edition, they provide detailed information about per-member giving patterns of U.S. church members from 1968 to 2001. Over those thirty-plus years, of course, the average income of U.S. Christians has increased enormously. But that did not carry over into their giving. The report showed that the richer we become, the less we give in proportion to our incomes.
In 1968, the average church member gave 3.1 percent of their income ? less than a third of a tithe. That figure dropped every year through 1990 and then recovered slightly to 2.66 percent ? about one quarter of a tithe.
Evangelical giving, consistently higher than that of mainline denominations, has fallen from 6.15 percent in 1968 to 4.27 percent in 2001. Sider again:
As we got richer and richer, evangelicals chose to spend more and more on themselves and give a smaller and smaller percentage to the church. Today, on average, evangelicals in the United States give about two-fifths of a tithe.
In 2002, Barna discovered that only 6 percent of born-again adults tithed ? a 50-percent decline from 2000 when 12 percent did. And in 2002, just 9 percent of Barna?s narrow class of evangelicals tithed.
These figures are staggering. Churchgoers in the US are falling far short of the bare minimum amount of giving that their Scriptures ask.
Poverty is an enormous problem. The Bible is very clear about how important it is for Christians to meet this enormous need. While we?re certainly giving a lot of money to these efforts, we could be giving more. We should be giving more.
Look, I?m certainly open to arguments that we should rely less on government aid to relieve and reduce the extreme poverty around the world. But you have to prove to me that something else will fill the void. You think that something else should be the Church? Great. So do I.
Let?s talk about how to make that happen.
This comes from the "From the Salmon" blog… on the subject of giving trends…
Comments
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Michael Rew on Thu, November 17, 2005
I may be wrong, but I think the Church used to run the majority of schools, hospitals, food charities, and maybe even prisons in America (which is why they were/are called “penitentiaries,” where a criminal went to feel “penitent” about his sins).
Don’t get me wrong. There are excesses in the Church as well as in government. I think it is hard for some of the poor when well-fed, well-dressed, well-educated Christians tell them to make do with the scraps tossed them when we go back to our climate-controlled houses and watch TV before sleeping in comfortable beds surrounded by luxuries we rarely use and do not need. But let’s be serious about what some consider the alleviation of poverty: It is not just, say, the provision of food and clothing, but of affordable housing in safe neighborhoods, electricity, indoor plumbing, heating and air conditioning, a reliable car, medical care, and enough money to provide for some level of entertainment, including television, radio, movies, and eating out. Throw on top of that college tuition and/or high-level job training. When people have a savings rate at or below zero, and they are living on credit, what do they have to give? We need to reconsider what we need, but we need to reconsider what the poor need, too. I think too many people are being beaten over the head about it. Outhouses used to be what everyone used. Now an outhouse is considered squalor. There must be indoor plumbing. A house without air conditioning? Impossible! And haven’t you heard that everyone has a right to cable television and the Internet? I bet you didn’t know!
Peter Hamm on Fri, November 18, 2005
Bernie says “I guess once you pay your 10%, plus a little more to prove how godly you are, then it’s perfectly fine to be greedy… I mean “blessed.” Isn’t that how most of the preachers put it?”
Most of what preachers? What churches are you spending time in? In this case, I think maybe a few bad apples spoil the batch because we only focus on the bad apples. Those guys are NOT the mainstream of the Church, I’m guessing we all agree on that…
Michael says “And haven’t you heard that everyone has a right to cable television and the Internet?” There is a lot of truth in what you say, even if you think that the rich in America are who is keeping the poor poor. It’s like the story about the family who was so poor that they couldn’t afford a dining room table and had to eat their meals off the box that the Large Screen TV came in.
But we who CAN give have shifted our priorities into some never-never-land, too. But I think that might have been part of your point.
So, has everybody who’s posted here sponsored any kids through Compassion or World Vision or something like that? There’s a good start!
Christopher on Fri, November 18, 2005
One of my concerns in this dialogue is that tithing is the definition of giving to the church.
Personally, as a lay person, I give what I understand Scripture asks of me. The 10% of my income to a church body, and the rest to whatever needs may arise. But should that be the extent? (This is the stewardship argument.) So I am irresponsible to my church if I give 5% at one building and 5% at another? What about the offerings of time and service? Are those not great offerings? (Alas, we have no measurement for those things, except for positions.)
I, frankly, would be more comfortable increasing the amount I gave to my church if I was convinced they weren’t going to spend in on another mailer or video program. Give it to the pastor so he can buy more people coffee. Give it to a working mom who can’t make ends meet - but for goodness sake (and I mean that literally) spend it wisely.
If a church doesn’t spend it wisely but is not overtly mismanaging it - and I recognize that I could switch congregations, then my response is to hold the money to my breast that I would give directly to those in need, feed my neighbor, or sponsor a small child through a charity.
If we looked at churches in the same way as we do businesses, and not in the market driven sense - how much do we spend unneccesarily? How much is lost in overhead? Are all the resources we afford ourselves really working towards the end goal? What is the end goal? Reaching people? Helping them in their needs? Saving souls? All of the above? None of the above? (None of the above in singular focus rather but secondary focus.)
So what do you think?
Bernie Dehler on Fri, November 18, 2005
Bernie said:
“Bernie says “I guess once you pay your 10%, plus a little more to prove how godly you are, then it’s perfectly fine to be greedy… I mean “blessed.” Isn’t that how most of the preachers put it?”
Peter Hamm said:
“Most of what preachers? What churches are you spending time in? In this case, I think maybe a few bad apples spoil the batch because we only focus on the bad apples. Those guys are NOT the mainstream of the Church, I’m guessing we all agree on that…”
I think the faulty attitude is very well entrenched into the mainstream. I oppose it when I see it, and it really makes the fur fly. But it’s not a popularity contest, and those who stand for truth will be persecuted (Jesus, John the Baptist, Apostles). Ever wonder why the popular preachers aren’t persecuted (Billy Graham, Rick Warrens, etc.)?
James 4:4
You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
Luke 6:26
Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.
...Bernie
Peter Hamm on Fri, November 18, 2005
Christopher,
Good thoughts! But the dangerous extreme that one can come to is that everybody who gives to a church makes themselves the de facto chairman of the finance committee. In other words, a certain amount of trust needs to be given to the elders whose job it is to oversee the budget. (And if all the decisions are made by the pastor or pastoral—read “paid”—staff, then perhaps the structure is not sound.)
Example, I had a guy who owned his own business come to me one time at the end of the year and say basically “I’m about to give a big amount that’s the rest of my tithe for the year and I want you to tell me what to designate it for.” You see, he didn’t know until mid-december just how much he was earning… many business owners don’t. Anyway, I told him not to designate it at all, but to trust the team that makes those decisions, which he agreed to do.
But, Christopher, your point is SO well taken, especially in churches that abuse their finances. So… be informed. Sometimes you need to be the squeaky wheel. My favorite people at my church are the squeaky wheels! They keep us all honest, and not just in finances! But if the people on that team or commmitte that make these decisions are trustworthy and honest… then by all means trust them!
Peter
Christopher on Fri, November 18, 2005
Peter,
Trust is essential in any relationship of autority. I had to wrestle with a very entry level issue that heavily messed with me once I started working on a church commitee. Even if my pastor is wrong, even if he is leading down the wrong road, even if he doesn’t have his thumb on the spirit of God (or so I percieve)- I must trust God to lead him or correct him. My job is not to save him from folly, sometimes he will not heed any warning. My job is to love him and serve him - even if he is doing things I disagree with. To voice my dissent with honor and then to support. Sometimes I have to risk him being wrong.
I do agree wholeheartedly with your point and I may not have truly balanced my question - I do trust certain percentages of my income to my pastor and the finance team - and do this by trusting the Lord with the idea that where I am at is where I am called and where I am called my tithe goes.
Tag. Your it.
Abbey on Sat, November 19, 2005
Peter mentions the poor family eating dinner off the box the large screen TV came in. Ha ha. When I was a kid it was the families living in shacks driving Cadillacs. Always has been, always will be. Priorities.
Yep, we’re sponsoring our second child thru World Vision now. This fella wants to be a Doctor - he’s from Colombia. I wish every family would do this - the amount of sponsorship is the equivalent of eating Sunday dinner at a moderate restaurant for 4 people!
Re: Christopher and Peter’s above conversation - trust is the key, and it’s so terribly abused on both sides (pulpit and lay). I agree with C’s comments about even if the Pastor is heading to left field, we need to be faithful in giving - my husband has had some bad experiences in this. (He’s the worship leader, but during an time of interim pastor, the “owner” of the church said he’d better change the music or people would stop giving. THIS guy was the deacon chair - holding the tithe ransom!)
And being faithful carries thru to our time - I didn’t understand FAITH or want to be involved in it, but I went along with the program and MY little paradigm was shifted, to God be the glory!
We’ve had the great good fortune to tithe off of inheritance - a large sum - and I didn’t even equate it with how it was spent in the church. And when some folks in that church turned on us it didn’t occur to me to resent giving what amounted to 2x our yearly salary. It’s God’s money.
I’n my mind you either TRUST God or you don’t and that trust pervades time, resources, tithing, extra giving, support of the leaders, ALL OF IT. It’s like a marriage - you either have an attitude of “we’re in this together” or you don’t and you operate as such.
And yet, my big beef is churches NOT acting like business in the realm of knowing how/where the money is spent. Like mostly with small churches where you have maybe a volunteer treasurer and a skeleton staff - like our church - who is checking to make sure we have the best and most cost efficient phone service/insurance/copier service/etc? It’s very important to streamline stuff like this and keep up with the times in order to be a good steward of the finances.
Evangelist Jeff on Sat, November 19, 2005
A little boy and his folks attended church and as they ate lunch they were talking about the church services. The parents did nothing but complain about everything. Then the turned to him and said Buddy what do you think about. Well he said I thought it was a pretty good show for a nicke.Always remember this folks. Wet birds never fly at night…
What a nickel brings is what a nickel brings, if it brings a nickel it is a nickel.If it had been 5cent worth it is 5cents worth.
Pastor Jim on Fri, November 25, 2005
Does the bible want us to give more to the church to build more expensive building, new uniforms for the choir and baseball team, or support a middle class to rich clergy lifestyle? They’re a just a few passages in the bible in regards to supporting the church but hundreds in reference to supporting the poor. God wants us to give as much as we can to the real church which is not a building or organization. Support missionaries and the poor!
John on Fri, November 25, 2005
I recently did a bible study on tithing. Please read the following scriptures and pray for understanding. Note: To keep this study to just a couple of pages I have only included sections of verse. Please read the whole chapters in your bible.
God Bless
John
THE THREE MAIN ARGUMENTS IN SUPPORT OF TITHING.
1. Tithing was a pre- Mosaic Law because Abraham tithed.
Was Abraham commanded by God to tithe? Did Abraham tithe only one time? Did Abraham tithe his personal property or just the spoils of war? Read Gen 14:20, Hebrews 7:3-5 If we follow all the examples of Abraham should we also practice polygamy, give burnt offerings and practice circumcision? Did Abraham teach his children to always tithe? If Abraham taught his children to tithe why did Jacob make a proposal to God?
He would tithe only if God would bless him first with good fortune. Gen 28:22
2. Jesus told the Pharisees to continue to tithe their spices.
Matt 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
Jesus also told the leper he cured to offer burnt offerings as Mosaic Law commanded.
Luke 5:14 Then Jesus ordered him, “Don’t tell anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them.”
Matthew 8:4 Then Jesus said to him, “See that you don’t tell anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.” Exodus 10:25, 20:24
Why do no Christian churches today offer burnt offerings as sacrifices?
Why did Jesus on these two occasions recommend keeping Mosaic Law?
Was it because the leper and the Pharisees were still under Mosaic Law until the crucifixion of Christ?
Was the life of Jesus the fulfillment of The Law and his dying on the cross the abolishment of The Law? Colossians 2 16 Are we now under the new covenant of Grace? Romans 6:14 Ephesians 2:8
Galatians 4:4 “But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,”
3. Jesus came to fulfill the law not change it.
Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” [Written before the crucifixion of Christ] I have heard some pastors quote the above scripture to support their argument although they don’t explain why they only keep part of the law. But what does the word “fulfill” imply in this context? Consider Ephesians 2:15 [written after the crucifixion of Christ] “By abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace.” Matthew 5:17 and Ephesians 2:15 seem to contradict each other so we must search more scripture for clarification. Consider the following passages:
Galatians 3:25 “Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.”
2 Corinthians 3:6 “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”
Galatians 3:23 “Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.”
Galatians 3:11 “Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” [ Heb. 2:4]
Hebrews 8:7 “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.”
Galatians 5:18 “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.”
Galatians 2:21 “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
Galatians 3:2 “ I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?”
Hebrews 10:8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made).
Galatians 5:3 “Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.”
Galatians 3:10 “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written:” “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
Romans 7:2-4 “Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.”
What do the previous passages imply in regards to the Old Covenant law?
Should Christians still follow all 603 Old Covenant laws including tithing?
If we follow one law are we then obligated to follow all the law?
Has the death and resurrection of Christ abolished all Old Testament commandments and regulations?
Additional notes
Even Jewish Rabbis who follow the old covenant today refuse to collect tithes. Why? Only direct descendants of Levites are permitted to collect tithes and the temple in Jerusalem with all the genealogy records was destroyed after the resurrection of Christ. Hebrews 7: 5 Deuteronomy 18:1, 26:12
Who are the new priests of Christ and where is his temple?
1 Peter 2:5 “you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”
1 Peter 2:9 “But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light”.
1 Corinthians 6:19
19 “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;”
If every believer is a priest and a temple do we need pastors or priests as an intermediary between God and ourselves?
New testament instructions on giving.
2 Cor 9:7-10 “Each of you must give as you have made up your mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.”
2 Cor 8:13-15 “ I do not mean that there should be relief for others and pressure on you, but it is a question of a fair balance between your present abundance and their need, so that their abundance may be for your need, in order that there may be a fair balance. As it is written, “The one who had much did not have too much, and the one who had little did not have too little.”
James 1:27 “Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.”
Does this mean it is wrong for churches to ask for tithes from the poor?
There are more Old Testament scriptures on tithing implying that there are three tithes resembling a taxation system, [Deut. 14 26-29] and that tithes are to be eaten, [Deut.14: 22-26]. Do any tithing churches eat their tithes?
Note: In relation to Deut 22-26. Some pastors claim food was tithed because Israel was an agricultural society and there was no money to tithe. Is this true?
Genesis 17:12
“For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring.”
The New Covenant Law
Galatians 5: 4 “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.”
Evangelist Jeff on Sat, November 26, 2005
Well here it goes. NO…... If you want to know why, send me $2.50 plus postage to get my message on this. For the whole series pleas send me $20.00. You can also get the book I wrote at a discount price for $15.55. And I will send you this prayer cloth that is actually a piece of robe of Jesus they found last year. If you want everything mentioned here today you send me $50 dollars.
Peter Hamm on Sun, November 27, 2005
Pastor Jim says “Does the bible want us to give more to the church to build more expensive building, new uniforms for the choir and baseball team, or support a middle class to rich clergy lifestyle?”
Good point, Pastor Jim… BUT… the VAST majority of churches, and pastors, in this great land are not living a “rich” lifestyle. Most are small, under 100 or 200 people, and in so many cases struggle to even be able to pay their pastor. I don’t mean to sound glib when I say this… and I’ve known many pastors of large (500+ members) churches, and they’re not rich.
As far as the other items go, I know here in our community we’ve introduced a GREAT number of people to Christ, but we have maxed out our building. If we don’t build an extension, a bigger worship space, within the next couple years, we will have no “empty seats” for people who might come in. We already have just about totally filled our worship space for our most powerful “time-slot.” And… btw, none of our pastors are rich.
Also, consider that with your particular concerns, you might make a great church planter… no joke! Now THERE’S an avenue where every dollar is spent carefully… if it’s done right!
I kinda agree on the choir robes and baseball uniforms, though… But I’m not a “choir robe” guy.
Peter
Pastor Jim on Sun, November 27, 2005
Good points Peter. Small churches with one pastor are completely different and struggle financially. Most of the churches I have been involved in were larger congregations with 4 or 5 paid pastors and only 15% of the budget went to missions and charity. I know a few pastors who make over 100k at these large churches.
My ideal large church would have one paid senior pastor. Associate pastors would be volunteers from membership. There are so many dedicated church volunteers who may have spent years in service to the church who deserve the right to be considered for an associate pastor position.
The mistake churches make is hiring someone from outside with a degree from a seminary.
In a church my friends attend recently two associate pastors were arrested.
One for stealing and another for sexual misconduct. Why is this happening? Is it because we hire people from outside our church whose character is unknown while we have dozens of members in our church whose character is practically beyond question? By using these churches members in a more substantial role as an associate pastor we could eliminate the possibility of these problems and at the same time free up revenue to support overseas missions and local charity.
In my visits to third world countries I found that this is the system that they use because they have a no choice. Here in America we have a choice but most of us are not willing to dig deeper into our pockets after spending our church revenue on fancy buildings, uniforms, and a number of pastor salaries. So in the end the main work of Christ suffers. After all isn’t Sunday worship just another indulgence for us Americans to feel good about ourselves for a few hours and then believe we are saved because we have faith but no deeds? Shouldn’t we think of others for a change? Let us consider how many millions of starving children there are in the world the next time we want nicer uniforms in our church and multiple pastors to serve our every need. Let us rethink our church structure to better serve God.
Bible quotes
James 2:14
Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Acts 10:5
The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God.
Proverbs 14:31
He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God.
Proverbs 21:13
If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered.
Proverbs 22:9
A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor.
Proverbs 28:27
He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses.
James 1:27
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
Peter Hamm on Sun, November 27, 2005
Some good points, Jim. But… I disagree about paid associate pastors. (Full disclosure: I am a paid associate pastor of worship arts)
You say “My ideal large church would have one paid senior pastor. Associate pastors would be volunteers from membership. “
I was a volunteer worship leader and youth pastor in a church for years, but because of the demands of my full-time job, I could NOT afford to be NEARLY as effective as I am now, in a full-time paid position. In my current church (about 1000 in weekly attendance) I cannot imagine how a volunteer could do all the things I do in 50+ hours every week, and I don’t even lead worship every week.
But you are SO right about churches getting their financial priorities in order. That in itself is a VERY hard thing to do, as you know if you’ve ever sat through a budget meeting process.
Peter
Pastor Jim on Mon, November 28, 2005
Maybe I should clarify my point Peter. Every situation is different. In my last church we had a membership of 600 and 6 full-time paid pastors. Revenue could have been directed in other areas if we had reduced our paid staff and the number of volunteers had been increased. As long as a church can motivate its members to serve in a volunteer capacity workloads can be shared and the amount of work hours reduced. In a church where volunteers are scarce, my ideal church would not be practical. I know dealing with boards and committees about budgets can be tiresome. I just feel we have to re-think the whole church model and hierarchy in order to better serve Christianity. We have a responsibility not just to our membership but also to the world.
Ask yourself this question. What is the definition of a church?
Jim
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