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    Church Discipline:  Repent, Apologize in Writing, and Drop the Lawsuits (or Risk Expulsion)

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    Williams, who said she won’t apologize, fears she won’t be able to set foot in the church where she’s been a member for 15 years. “I don’t know if we will be allowed in on Sunday.”

    Sutton and other church leaders declined to comment on the specifics of the letter.

    “We are treating this as an internal church matter,” said Andrew Dunning, vice-chairman of the Two Rivers deacon board. “We are trying to handle this biblically.”

    The 74 church members filed suit in September to get access to church financial records and to have Sutton and other church leaders removed. They believed Sutton, who has served as the church’s pastor for more than 20 years, had misused church funds to pay for personal trips. They were also angered that the church paid some of the cost of a wedding reception for Sutton’s daughter.

    A judge recently dismissed the lawsuit, but said the church members were entitled to see financial records.

    Two Rivers has more than 6,000 members, but weekly attendance averages between 1,600-1,800, church leaders say.

    The letter from Sutton and Cobos cites the scripture Matthew 18:12-17 as a model for resolving church disputes.

    “If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you,” the passage reads in the New International Version. “If he listens to you, you have won the brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or tax collector.”

    When asked about the biblical command to turn the other cheek, Dunning declined comment. He did say that the plaintiffs would be allowed in the church this Sunday.

    According to the letter, the church members have violated the Two Rivers’ bylaws by their actions. They were given eight steps to take in order to make amends.

    One of the key steps was this: “Stop causing disharmony among our Church Membership by being a party to malicious gossip, rumor spreading, defaming conversations, and the spreading of unfounded accusations against our Pastor, our Church Leadership, and our Church.”

    To encourage the plaintiffs to repent, two deacons will be contacting church members. Peggy Lewis, one of the plaintiffs, says she welcomes the deacons’ visit.

    “I’m going to lock the doors, and then we’re going to have a little prayer,” said Lewis, a former Sunday school teacher at Two Rivers said. “Then I am going to lay out everything we’ve found out about the church, and maybe a little light will shine.”

    One thing Lewis will not do is say she is sorry.

    “Apologize for what? I’ve done nothing wrong,” said Lewis, a long-time Two Rivers member. “Why should we leave the church that we built?”

    Unlike other Christian groups, such as Methodists or Roman Catholics, each Southern Baptist Church is completely autonomous. The local congregation decides who will be their pastor and church membership qualifications.

    “This is a local church matter and they are completely responsible for their actions,” said James Porch, executive director of the Tennessee Baptist Convention. Porch said that the convention’s constitution forbids it from intervening in a local church dispute.

    If the plaintiffs refused to comply with the demands of Sutton and the deacons, they face expulsion. According to church bylaws, a congregational vote will be held on the plaintiffs’ fate. Two thirds of members at the meeting must vote to expel them.
    It is unclear when that meeting will be held.

    Lewis said she’s not worried about being voted out of Two Rivers.

    “It’s in the Lord’s hand’s,” she said. And besides, she added, “I’ve got a lot of friends at that church.”

    SOURCE

    So… what do you think… good move?  proper church discipline?  or is this just one new batter going to be bigger than the last one (and more ugly)?

    A group of members at Two Rivers Baptist Church who sued Pastor Jerry Sutton have been told to repent of their sins, apologize in writing, drop present and future lawsuits, and stop meeting together or risk expulsion from the church. Seventy-four church members in the lawsuit received a letter this week from Sutton and Carlos Cobos, chairman of the Two Rivers deacon board. It accused them of damaging the church’s witness and welfare. They were given five days to issue a written apology to Sutton. “If we do not apologize, and repent,’’ said church member Erika Williams, “he is going to try to roust all 74 of us out.”

    Comments

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    1. Peter Hamm on Wed, January 16, 2008

      {A judge recently dismissed the lawsuit, but said the church members were entitled to see financial records.}


      That sounds like it should end the matter. But we only know what we read on the web…

    2. Daniel on Wed, January 16, 2008

      Lawsuits among Christians make me sick. I think it’s appropriate for the dissenting flock to have been told to repent and drop the lawsuit. They shouldn’t have done it in the first place.


      However, why is there even a question of where the finances are going? If a group is trying to get access to the records, who’s keeping them locked away? There are no secrets such as these in the Body. The pastor of the church is in fact accountable for how the money of the Body is spent. So if there are legitimate gripes, these need to be settled internally.


      Dragging the U.S.A.’s court system into the matter is not going to help.


      My two cents.


      -Daniel-

    3. bishopdave on Wed, January 16, 2008

      Two cents:


      .01   Lay your books out for all to see. Provide monthly, or at least quarterly statements.


      .02 Since when does being a long-time member exempt you from accountability and discipline? Filing the lawsuit is grounds, as far as me and Paul are concerned.

    4. Jim in NJ on Wed, January 16, 2008

      What is a member to do when the church leadership doesn’t respond to reasonable requests? What does, “tell it to the church” mean. Does it mean the body of believers that constitute the church or does it mean the church leadership? If the church leadership does not respond, what are you supposed to do next? It does say in Matthew that “if he refuses to listen to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.” Would you sue a pagan or tax collector? I’m not just being argumentative, I’d like to know what else these people should have done.


      I agree that the best thing a church should do is be transparent in its financial dealings (except giving information, of course). I speak as a church treasurer for a church of about 600. I don’t mind honest disagreements about how church money should be spent. It shows people care. But the more you hide, the more you encourage people to speculate.


      I seem to remember an earlier posting about this. As I remember, the church paid for an all-church reception for the pastor’s daughter. The explanation was that they did not want to offend any of the church members, but the pastor could not afford to invite everyone and pay for it himself and that it was approved by the church governing body. That part made sense, if true.


      I’m not sure why the judge dismissed the suit, but said that they should have access to the church financial records. Wasn’t that what the suit was supposed to do?


      It is indeed sad if the division here was caused by a refusal to disclose financial information. Sounds like both sides might need to repent and apologize.

    5. Jermayn Parker on Wed, January 16, 2008

      What happened to the take offenses up to the person and then a brother to act as mediator??? I agree that lawsuits among Christians is not good and a VERY VERY poor Godly testimony.


      I do agree with previous comments that in a church if your a member you should have access (yearly/ monthly etc) to ALL records etc BUT I think it should be presented in a meeting and not just handed out on request.


      Lets hope all the parties pull their head in.

    6. Randy Ehle on Wed, January 16, 2008

      Jim in NJ,  you’ve raised a great question: “What is a member to do when the church leadership doesn’t respond to reasonable requests?”  Obviously, Matt 18 (and other similar passages) should guide the process.  In this case, it seems on the surface that legitimate requests for information were made to the leaders, and not adequately responded to.  Instead, the appearance is that the leaders are being at least somewhat secretive; whether from good or bad motivation, we can’t say.


      While the Bible is our first and foremost guide and authority, it is not a procedure manual, and a church needs one.  In a case like this, the next step should probably involve looking at the church’s governing documents to see what guidelines are provided there.  For example, a congregational church may have a petition process by which a certain number of members can “force” a business meeting on an otherwise-unwilling board.  (If the board were still unresponsive and the issue significant enough - like misappropriating church funds - that’s when it may be necessary to involve outside legal authorities…though other paths may still be possible.)  Unfortunately, these steps will necessarily involve some discussion among multiple members, which can seem to be divisive. 


      We need to ask ourselves whether the issue is significant enough to risk falling into sin ourselves.   Our actions must always be guided by prayer, humility, and love; and must not be motivated by pride, idolatry (“it’s my church”), jealousy, etc.  Of course, messes like this are caused by people Paul described as “controlled by the flesh”, and expecting such people to operate “by the spirit” is plain foolishness.

    7. Ricky on Fri, January 18, 2008

      Randy said:


      “While the Bible is our first and foremost guide and authority, it is not a procedure manual, and a church needs one.”


      Oh, my God!  I can’t believe you said this!


      You’ve just proven the point that I’ve been trying to make for years on this site…that to you, and to probably most others who frequent this site, the “church” is the organization that incorporates with the state and the federal government.


      You’ve just proved that.


      However, in contrast to your belief, the Word IS a “procedure manual” for THE Church, which is devoid of heirarchical structures and self-made positions. 


      The Word teaches us how to live with other believers in a very public fashion (and not behind walls), which, if done humbly, shouts forth God’s presence on the earth.


      A “procedure manual” has NEVER and will NEVER have an ounce of spiritual guidance in it.


      Wake up!  It’s time to start living it.

    8. deaubry on Fri, January 18, 2008

      amen ricky

    9. Paul Kuzma on Fri, January 18, 2008

      This has always been, and probably always will be, a large issue. How do we live out being “in the world but not of it”? What does it mean that the Kingdom of God is the opposite of the world we live in?


      Even the Wall Street Journal is tracking this issue ... http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB120061470848399079-lMyQjAxMDI4MDEwODYxMTg0Wj.html


      IMHO, this stuff should never end up in the courts between brothers and sisters in Christ. That it did (and that it does) seems a missed discipleship issue somewhere for someone involved.


      Given that, my answer to Todd’s question is that they should have stopped short of asking for a written apology. Anyone can write a letter. Everything goes back to the heart.


      My recommendation would be for the church leaders to contact a Christian Conciliation Ministry for consultation.

    10. Ricky on Fri, January 18, 2008

      Paul said:


      “IMHO, this stuff should never end up in the courts between brothers and sisters in Christ.”


      Agreed, but this is the nature of the beast.


      I’m not referring to the “beast” in the Book of Revelations but rather that monstrous, hideous excuse for control called the “local ‘church.’”


      Because we have patterned or structured ourselves the way the world does, it is inevitable that worldly courts will be allowed in.  If not now, soon.

    11. Jen on Fri, January 18, 2008

      Hi!  Interesting discussion.  I, too, have been on the receiving end of an unbiblical and unjust excommunication.  We did everything possible to reconcile with Doug Phillips, the very public minister who excommunicated us.  After two years, we finally went public with our story—online.  That seemed to be our only option left of “taking it to the church.”  We rejected suing him, although legally we had every right to.  I rejected the Wall Street Journal’s offer of telling my story in that article because this is a church matter.  I don’t know all the details on both sides of any of those stories being discussed, but I do know that in the last year of my going public, that Doug Phillips has yet to refute one thing I’ve alleged against him.


      So here’s the question for you guys.  When I’ve done all that I can possibly do on my end, and my former pastor chases me from church to church making sure that no church ever allows me to attend, what do I do?  There was no real sin in the first place.  I voted for Bush for president, while he wanted me to vote for Peroutka.  Who?  Yeah, I know!  And then I had the gall to tell him why.


      If you want to read my story, just click on my name.  I’ll listen to any advice you guys might have, but sometimes it’s not so simple as it should be.

    12. Peter Hamm on Fri, January 18, 2008

      Ricky writes [You’ve just proven the point that I’ve been trying to make for years on this site…that to you, and to probably most others who frequent this site, the “church” is the organization that incorporates with the state and the federal government.]


      Huh? I have no idea how you get from one to the other, Ricky. It’s a made-up connection.


      also [heirarchical structures and self-made positions…] Ricky, I and others have showed you before from scripture that pastors, overseers, bishops are VERY much biblical positions and you have never responded with any kind of compelling scriptural proof that they are not. You just go away for a while and resurface a few months later with some ridiculous remark like these today. (I’m losing my ability to be polite with you, as you seem to have never had the ability to be polite to begin with.)


      [I’m not referring to the “beast” in the Book of Revelations but rather that monstrous, hideous excuse for control called the “local ‘church.’”] Sorry, Ricky, I can no longer be polite here. You have some kind of deep-seated resentment or hatred of the local church. That church is the same church that is the bride of Christ, and as someone who works in it, I am taking it as a personal insult that you would call her a “beast”.


      I don’t see the point of your vindictive rants, and I think you really should take a deep breath and talk to someone about whatever happened that hurt you in the local church, maybe find some healing or at least some relief from it, and look at the New Testament and all of its instructions for leadership in the church (even hierarchical leadership) again.

    13. Ricky on Fri, January 18, 2008

      Jen:


      If I were you, I’d speak to an attorney because it sounds as if your “pastor” is slandering your name to other “pastors.”


      Defamation of character, especially by someone who has abused their “position,” must not be tolerated and because you will not find remedy with other “pastors,” because they all stick together (after all, how can one go against his own authority?).


      Until then, you’ll be hounded by that jerk who calls himself a “pastor” but is really a butcher.


      God bless and keep you.

    14. Peter Hamm on Sat, January 19, 2008

      Ricky,


      I am, as most would agree, usually very careful in my words and very polite. I will continue to be careful with my words with you, but I feel compelled to be no longer “polite”.


      I have not been “conditioned by the seminaries”. I have not even been to one, nor have I been to a Bible College for that matter, although I may be as well-read in the faith as many who’ve been to one or both. I am not basing my theology on ONE scripture, and I might argue that you are basing yours on NO scriptures.


      Consider these for starters:


      What about Jesus’ instruction to Peter to “feed my sheep”? That wasn’t a call to leadership? What about the clear distinction between two different levels of followers in the Gospels (the 12 and the 72)? That’s not hierarchical?


      What about the picture of Church “government” in the book of Acts, where it is VERY clear throughout that some are called to lead? Look especially at Acts 1 and Peter’s example of leadership and the necessity of filling the vacant leadership/“pastor” position. Look at Acts 5 where Peter is clearly “leading” during the Ananias/Sapphira incident. Look at Acts 6 where the “leaders” are clearly “leading” to deal with the first real controversy in the church. And examine Acts 15, where Peter is CLEARLY “leading” the council at Jerusalem. Look also at the tone of Paul’s letters, where he is CLEARLY asserting—in what were letters to them at first but is Scripture for us—that he is in a “position” of “leadership”.


      What about Ephesians 4:11-13, where it is explicitly stated that apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers are God’s gift to the church for equipping leadership (nouns, not verbs)? What about three entire letters of instructions to pastors in the New Testament?


      What about The Romans 12 exhortation for those with the spiritual gift of leadership to to take that responsibility seriously? This is just the few that come quickly to mind.


      (Please do not respond to “one” of my above examples unless and until you are able to respond adequately to all of them, and all of Scripture.)


      Your ongoing assertion that there is no instruction in the New Testament for people to lead in the church (You’ve said as much before) is groundless and baseless, and your diatribes continue to be quite rude.


      Ricky, your position is scripturally untenable, and I fear that somebody new who comes along might think that you’ve adequately thought through the assertions that you make, when it is clear from Scripture that you are proof-texting (although in the past few years, as you have occasionally posted on this forum, I have never seen you provide even a proof-text against examples such as those I’ve stated above, so what you are doing is even more unsound than proof-texting).


      I think that you have not thought through those claims at all, but are merely blowing off steam or the like. I pray that YOU might grasp the truth that will set you free from the hatefulness and bitterness that you harbor toward God’s church, for whatever reason you may hold it (and it certainly isn’t scriptural).

    15. deaubry on Sat, January 19, 2008

      ricky, i said amen to you when you said the bible is the authority in the church, the book to go by,but shame on you calling the church a beast, i have had people to hurt me in the church, but hey lets just forgive them and move on. i do not think peter is your enemy, he seems like a person that would help you through the hurt you must have had to feel the way you do, it does no good to try to hurt other people, it just makes it worse.   [ my one cent worth]

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