Dan Kimball on Common Perceptions about the Church
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Mon, October 03, 2005
- Viewed 341
- (24) comments so far
The list below are the primary things they have said are their perceptions of the church and Christians - which keep them away from the church (not in any order).
I am wondering if there is agreement with these things being the main reasons people stay away from church. Or is there anything I have missed in this list? I would appreciate any feedback on this list.
- The Church is an ?Organized Religion? with a political agenda
- The Church is Judgmental and Negative
- The Church is Male Dominated and Female Oppressive
- The Church is Homophobic
- The Church Thinks They Have the Exclusive Way to God (and everyone else is wrong)
- The Church takes the Bible too literally and are ?Fundamentalists?
FOR DISCUSSION: What do you think? Are these valid? What other things would you ad to the list?
Todd
Dan Kimball writes at his Vintage Faith blog. I am wrapping up a book I have written for Zondervan, called "They Like Jesus, but Not the Church". It is based out of a series of interviews I have done with people (primarily those in their twenties) who either dropped out of the church, or grew up outside of the church and want nothing to do with church…
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Thomas E. Jones on Mon, October 03, 2005
Sadly, these individuals don’t see the truth of the situation very clearly.
1. The church is not typically involved in politics enough, at least those outside of their realm. The church needs to be a little more political, as far as our local, state and federal governments go.
2.This is pressed by Hollywood. Most evangelical churches are very openminded and accepting of others. There are a few who fit the other extreme.
3. Most churches in this nation would not be in existence if it were not for female leadership and faithfulness. There typically aren’t enough men present to dominate anything.
4.I have seen many homosexuals in the church. They just haven’t come out of the closet. If the church seems homophobic, it is because it is made up of common people who are just like the other “homophobic” individuals outside the church. None of us accept homosexuality as a viable alternative…Please! There are what? 2% of the population that consider themselves homosexual?
Why accept and support something that doesn’t work? Try connecting your fuel injectors to your exhaust manifold in your car. It would make a great birdbath! Still, we love these as individuals and humans. I don’t know of a church that would reach out and accept a repentant homosexual.
5. Go figure! We DO have the exclusive way to God and they need to know his name—Jesus! It is the pride of mankind that rebels against God’s way to Himself. Love them, show them who Jesus is by your life.
6.Just as we take the English textbook and the Science textbook and the World Book Encyclopedia literally, we take the Bible literally overall. Of course there are different types of literature in the Bible that have to be interpreted differently, but it by far a literal book.
These individuals have been educated in the finest government schools and have become so openminded their brains fell out. We need to hear them, love them, accept them, teach them so that they may know God. Don’t just compromise everything you know is true to get them in the building.
Pastor Al on Mon, October 03, 2005
1. The Church is an “Organized Religion” with a political agenda
Sure it is, it was in Jesus time too. He had 12 men, he organized them according to gifts and talents. Their agenda, Disciple the world.
2. The Church is Judgmental and Negative
If “judgment and negative” means the church stand against sin, and speak out against it, then let us wear the condemnation well.
3. The Church is Male Dominated and Female Oppressive
Sure it is, been that way since the 12 “men” apostles, as to the oppression – depends on what you mean by oppressive. If one fulfilling a God given role is “oppressive?”
4. The Church is Homophobic
Considering what this “lifestyle” promotes and how scripture condemns it, I think we should fear it’s influence and speak for its deliverance from people and our culture. If that make us Homophobic, ok.
5. The Church Thinks They Have the Exclusive Way to God (and everyone else is wrong)
Yes, if a church holds that Jesus is the only “way, truth and life” and the only way to the Father. Then we are promoting an exclusive Way to God.
6. The Church takes the Bible too literally and are “Fundamentalists”
I would hope so, and if we aren’t then what we are preaching is as irrelevant to the salvation of man as the novel “War and Peace.”
Daniel Zepeda on Mon, October 03, 2005
God bless you Pastor Al. I wonder why so many of us try to make up excuses for our beliefs in Christ. It is a breath of fresh air to read your post.
Daniel Zepeda
Ray Schwartz on Mon, October 03, 2005
What a list! And you know, from the point of view of those who don’t want to have anything to do with the church, it is a list that will always give them cover. Far from trying to debate folks on this point, I applaud Dan’s efforts to reach them where they are - in the middle of their family. On one point however, the church is not dominated by men influence these days. Recent surveys show the opposite, with church attendance at 61% female, 39% male. To wit - if someone wants to be ‘mad’ or ‘disenfrancised’ ... they often will find any reason to be so.
Ricky on Mon, October 03, 2005
My how defensive we get when we hear what all of our programs, rules and outreaches have resulted in.
Kimball is merely delineating how today’s version of “church” is seen and yet, instead of honestly evaluating the evaluation, which is spot on, the hackles are gotten up.
What was said that isn’t the truth? Please address the disagreements in a reasonable way instead of an emotional, knee-jerk reaction, which only feeds the perceptions further.
The common thread that runs through each of the areas listed is Pharisaic pride and whether you agree or not, we’re not doing something right, although I don’t expect anyone here to admit that.
Ricky on Mon, October 03, 2005
Ray:
“On one point however, the church is not dominated by men influence these days. Recent surveys show the opposite, with church attendance at 61% female, 39% male.”
The fact that women outnumber men in congregations that are controlled by men only strengthens the point that “church” is somewhat sexist, although Jesus and Paul sought to change that misconception of God’s kingdom.
eight on Mon, October 03, 2005
You forgot…“all they want is my money, they don’t care about me.” I’ve been in various churches through the years and the most successful NEVER mentioned money.
BeHim on Mon, October 03, 2005
I’m very happy to have seen the first few posts defending the Faith rather than explain how we should attempt to change it to be more acceptable to sin, homosexuality, unisexism, etc.
If you’re willing to change God to meet man, why bother choosing Jesus, any god will do.
Mat Garcia on Tue, October 04, 2005
Have we forgotten the spiritual state the unbelivers is in? They have a world view absent of truth. Of course they are going to make false assumptions about Christians and church. At this point in their spiritual, life truth is not a criteria for measuring anything in life .. including their idea of Jesus.
It would be misleading to compare the unbeliever’s positive view of Jesus against their negative view of the church when truth is not used to interpret either.
Dan Kimball on Tue, October 04, 2005
This is Dan Kimball, and from reading most of these posts, I am wondering if the people writing these comments are even in relationships with non-christians? I am only going by what i read, not by knowing those who have written here (as you can’t tell hearts from blog posts) but from the tone, it sure seems like what several are doing is defending these comments by saying “these are blind unbelievers in sin whose hearts are hardended, so who cares what they think!” it makes me very sad reading most of these responses. remember, these are what people outside of the church see the church as. i wasn’t saying it was all true, i was saying this is how they percieve us.
If anyone has a missionary heart, then you (we) should be going out and listening to people, learning what they think and value, and then praying to find the best way that we can communicate the gospel and love them by. quite honestly what i sense i am reading here (and again, i am only going by what i am reading without seeing facial expression or knowing hearts) is actually backing up the very attitides that those i talk to have about christian leaders.
i might get some mad at me for saying this, but i don’t hear any broken hearts for these people. just “they’re sinners so of course they will think that!”.
are any of you in relationships with non-christians?
dan
Todd Rhoades on Tue, October 04, 2005
Dan,
Good to hear from you, my friend. You know… I got the same feeling reading some of these posts. It is sad.
I mean, if all these unsaved people would just get their lives right, AND THEN come to Christ, there would be no problem.
How will we ever reach anyone when we look down on them to begin with. And how will we ever reach them when they don’t really even want what we already have (from what they see us living)?
I’m looking forward to your book… it sounds like an area I need to grow in as well.
And yes, I’m constantly looking for opportunities to get to know non-christians. It’s tough for me (since I have no workplace to get to know them in). We try to cultivate relationship through getting to know parents in our kid’s activities (sports, dance, etc.). It’s something we need to get better in, but we’re doing better now than ever before! http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Thanks, Dan!
Todd
Ricky on Tue, October 04, 2005
Dan said:
“quite honestly what i sense i am reading here (and again, i am only going by what i am reading without seeing facial expression or knowing hearts) is actually backing up the very attitides that those i talk to have about christian leaders.”
Precisely!
No one has been willing to admit that there’s at least one shred of truth found in the indictment in the article.
We must remember that every stereotype or profile is based on some truth. I believe that one of the main reasons Jesus was born to a poor family was so that He would grow up around real people with real problems looking for real solutions.
Thank God He wasn’t born the son of a religious professional (i.e., PK)!
RevJay on Tue, October 04, 2005
Great answers to the world’s view (and some of the churches) on what we stand for and against. Appreciate the insight. RevJay
Bill Wood on Wed, October 05, 2005
I am not at all surprised at Dan’s list, in fact I suspect the list fairly represents the unchurched’s view of the Church. I am somewhat surprised that there wasn’t something about sexual abuse given the news over the last few years.
How could their view be any different?
What is the primary way that people have their worldviews shaped? The media certainly has a strong influence in that effort. If I looked at Dan’s list I would say that these could easily be talking points for a standard script for a Hollywood movie.
The old saying is that perception is reality. One’s perception can be terribly flawed but we must treat one’s perception as though it was reality while showing the true reality if we want to engage them in conversation.
If more Christians live incarnate lives before a watching world and engage them on their turf in love and with respect there will at least be an opportunity to engage in conversation. I honestly believe that if the watching world sees the Church giving itself away, expecting nothing in return, we will have an opportunity to engage in honest dialogue.
The Church giving itself away is a message that runs counter to everything that is held out as Christianity in today’s most visible representations. The images today are of arenas filled with people sitting and listneing. The Church should be so much more than that. Hey I know let’s be salt and light.
There are many areas that we can come alongside of unchurched people without getting on slippery theological slopes. We should do that as often as possible.
Ultimately it is all about God doing the work in the hearts of people. We are commanded to go - and so we must. We cannot gurantee the fruitfulness of our efforts, but we can be faithful to the command.
Dan Kimball on Wed, October 05, 2005
hi Bill—
actually, there was a lot said about sexual abuse, but it was all focused on the catholic church and priests. there was a definite understanding of a distinction between the catholic church and the average non-catholic church. anyway, that’s why i didn’t include it as it was specifically a criticism of priests and the catholic church, not the church at large.
Dan
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