Defining “Churches That Don’t Give a Rip”
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Tue, November 01, 2005
- Viewed 98
- (37) comments so far
"The average church on the corner of Elm and Vine doesn't give a flying rip about people far from God. They're an annoyance. They use bad words. They sleep in the wrong bed. They drink too much booze. They're an annoyance."
Many people took offense to this comment. I later clarified my thoughts on the quote in a subsequent post here.
Besides getting off the subject too many times to count... that individual post got way too long; so we'll start over here.
I've done numerous posts on uneffective churches here before (like this post). Overall, I think many, if not most people think that there are a lot of churches that are dead out there and have not future. But when you try to define who they are (like saying that many churches don't give a rip about the lost), many of the same people get all up in arms and get way too defensive.
I've found this to be true in my own denomination/conference. We have our share of dead churches; but no one will ever move to shut any of them down. And to hear some of the dying churches talk; things are either 1. rosey; or 2. terrible because they get no help from other 'more blessed' churches.
So... here is your assignment. What is a dead church? What kind of church should you leave if you're the pastor of? What is it about a church that makes it ineffective to the point that it should just close? What do you take out of a church that just makes it a social club? Are there really churches beyond repair? What percentage of the 300,000 churches in America fit into this category? 10%? 20%? The majority? What's your take?
I realize there are a lot of questions there. I guess the two main things I'd like to hear... How would you describe a 'dead church' and when, if ever, do you think a church should shut down because of ineffectiveness?
(NOTICE: This is not about mega-churches. This post is not about tithing. It's not about anything other than what causes churches to be dead). Anything off topic will be deleted.
You have the microphone...
OK… we’ve had some great conversations in the past week on a couple of different posts here at the blog. Here’s a brief update if you’re just now joining the conversation: It all started with this post that had a quote by Pastor Bill Hybels (of Willow Creek fame)…
Comments
if you want a Globally Recognized Avatar (the images next to your profile) get them here. Once you sign up, they will displayed on any website that supports them.
Phil Hoover-Chicago on Tue, November 01, 2005
I think three great books that address the “dead church” issues are:
Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire
Fresh Faith
Fresh Power
All three by Pastor Jim Cymbala of the Brooklyn Tabernacle. Pastor Cymbala didn’t inhert a large congregation….but he and his wife Carol have witnessed what God will do when they lived in complete obedience to Him and His Word.
Randy Ehle on Tue, November 01, 2005
This may sound simplistic, but I think Jesus already answered the question: “This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.” (John 15:8, NIV)
Dying churches don’t bear fruit. One big problem, though, is that they believe they are. Attend a church’s annual meeting and listen to what they’re quantifying. Usually, it’s people and pennies (attendance and offerings/budget). Running a close second is conversions, followed often by baptisms. I recently met with one pastor who told me that in their church they count the number of people who take communion. (I mention that not by way of judgment, only because that was a new concept to me.)
While I don’t have a major problem with large churches, what I have seen over the past 25 years or so in the church growth movement is an emphasis on numerical growth; and, in most cases, only lip-service is given to real spiritual growth, which is slower, more painstaking, and much harder to quantify. In most churches I’ve encountered - even “good” ones - discipleship has been reduced to a program…but they don’t even celebrate the number of people going through the program!
Jesus told his disciples to go make disciples. In John 15 he talked about “fruit” being evidence of their discipleship. What kind of fruit? Disciples! Quite simply, a church that is dead is not making disciples.
Phil Hoover-Chicago on Tue, November 01, 2005
While I don’t have a major problem with large churches, what I have seen over the past 25 years or so in the church growth movement is an emphasis on numerical growth; and, in most cases, only lip-service is given to real spiritual growth, which is slower, more painstaking, and much harder to quantify.
*****************************************
Then the question becomes “what is ‘real spiritual growth’ and how do we measure it?”
Randy Ehle on Tue, November 01, 2005
Phil asks the important question, “what is ‘real spiritual growth’ and how do we measure it?” I’ll go out on a limb to mention a few elements, with the caveat that this is not intended to be an exhaustive list:
-a disciple can feed herself a nutritious diet from Scripture; she does not merely rely on others to feed her and doesn’t just drink “milk” (Paul’s word, not mine).
-a disciple can nourish others from the scriptures.
-a disciple can - and does - reproduce; they make disciples.
-a disciple loves his brothers in the faith (and certainly others; I’m just picking up from John 13:35)
-a disciple…
What do others have to add?
Al on Tue, November 01, 2005
What makes churches die?
Christ is not lifted up and man is.
Bernie Dehler on Tue, November 01, 2005
Todd asked:
“How would you describe a ‘dead church’ “
Look at the judgment of the churches in Revelation. You can see from God’s perspective of which are alive and dead, and why. Then ask yourself, which church in Revelation most closely matches the USA church? I think it’s the church of Laodicea. So does the Director of Gospel for Asia, which he states in his book “Road to Reality.” He has a great global view of the church, and knows what’s going on worldwide. We better wake-up, stop trusting in the flesh and finances, answer the door, and let Jesus in. This also involves understanding true stewardship, surrendering all to God (not just 10%).
...Bernie
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/247
Dean on Tue, November 01, 2005
Where 2 or 3 are gathered together in Jesus name, there He is in the midst of them. Whose responsibility is it to “shut down” an assembly of those gathered in His name? Whose responsibility is it to guide the Body, to discipline the Body, to heal the Body, to build the Body? The whole idea of shutting down a group of people gathered together in His name is simply wrong-headed. If it weren’t for the desire to help oneself to the financial and material resources that exist in a so-called “dead church”, an association or denomination simply wouldn’t be interested at all. Methinks the whole idea smacks of greed rather than grace and judgmentalism rather than compassion and mercy. The human authority structure of typical Western religious organizations is the only reason anyone would ever have such a conversation. Where is the Body in all this? Would you ever conceive of Paul going into a group and telling them “I’M personally going to shut you down if you don’t get your act together.”? Such arrogance has no place at all in the Body of Christ and it’s time the influential power and prosperity brokers repented of such stuff. Jesus said he wouldn’t snuff out a flickering wick and it sure smells to high heaven when affluent religious organizations get into the business of criticizing the weak and faltering. Shame!
Randy Seiver on Tue, November 01, 2005
Todd,
This is in actually a response to a question you asked me on the “rant” blog you posted last week. I didn’t have anyone in mind when I talked about growing or swelling. I was just making an observation that we can’t assume when we see something getting bigger that it is growing. The evidence it is growth is that it will continue to maturity. If it is only swelling, it will eventually begin to decline, decay and disintegrate.
I truly hope what we are seeing is real growth and that believers will be deepened in the knowledge of God and his holy will. My point is simply that we can not truly judge the success of any person or movement [apart, of course, from the violation of clearly revealed biblical truth] before the reality or unreality is revealed before the throne of God.
Just one additional thought. . . I wonder how some of your SS buddies would react to the idea that if this is truly growth and not swelling, it has nothing to do with their state of the art marketing techniques and everything to do with God in his sovereign mercy granting success to the gospel (see 1 Cor 3:5-7).
Randy Seiver on Tue, November 01, 2005
A dead church is one in which the lamp of truth has been extinguished because its leaders no longer proclaim God’s Word faithfully, consistently and fully.
A dead church is one in which we have lost our vision of God’s majestic sovereignty and holiness so that we no longer feel the need to bow in the dust before his throne and worship him.
A dead church is one in which a large percentage of the members are unconverted because its leaders have lost, and are therefore no longer proclaiming, the essence of the biblical gospel.
A dead church is one in which we are no longer active in encouraging one another to love and good works and one in which we would rather cover up than to confess our faults one to another.
A dead church is one in which we no longer feel a burning desire to see the lost come to know our Savior in a saving way.
When these are the characteristics of a “church” it is no longer a church but a social club and should be disbanded. The only hope for such organizations is a renewed commitment to biblical preaching and a widespread conversion of its members such as occurred during the great awakening of the early 1700’s.
It is my view that about 90% of our nation’s churches fall into this category.
Brian La Croix on Tue, November 01, 2005
Bernie, I think we need to be careful about using such a wide brush to paint the US church as being like the Laodicean church. Many are, to be sure, but not all, and maybe not even most. I can’t say for sure, but my guess is that the vast majority of churches represented on this forum would not fit into that category.
On the issue of closing a church, our denom has done it, and even recently. There was no life - the people had given up hope of reaching people and having any impact on the area for Christ. It was incredibly hard to find leadership willing to stay when the attitude was so sour. It was prudent from both a standpoint of “effort” and a standpoint of stewardship of resources. So after much prayer and consultation, the churches were closed. Those who were still in attendance went to other churches in the area. I don’t see a problem with closing such churches.
For those who feel it’s because the leaders aren’t doing their jobs to fire the people up, what do you say to the pastor who has spent years discussing this from the pulpit, offering opportunities for equipping, and modeling it both from the pulpit and in personal interactions with non-believers, only to see the people in the pews say things like, “Reaching people is YOUR job, Pastor (after you get done cleaning the church and repainting the parsonage…), leave us alone!” Or, “We like the group we’ve got and don’t want to mess that up with new people.”
No amount of imploring people to obey the Great Commission, no amount of weeping before God, no amount of fiery preaching about your neighbors going to hell does any good.
I thank God for the group he’s given us at this church. They are waking up to the need to reach out to their friends and such, and we’re seeing people praying for their unsaved friends.
Oh yeah - “Where two or three are gathered…” is not about fellowship - the context is church discipline. And God is present even if there is only one!
Brian
Ricky on Tue, November 01, 2005
To pick up where Bernie left off, I believe that churches (biblically speaking, not the structured, incorporated organizations) are alive because Christ is manifested through His people each time they come together not to RECEIVE but in order to GIVE.
I am of the belief that the “life” of a church (again, biblically speaking) cannot be measured in the numbers it may contain physically but rather to the numbers it influences spiritually, as in the real disciples produced, which are much smaller than we would like to believe.
Therefore, most “churches” (i.e., incorporated organizations) of today, be they small, medium or mega, are not alive because Christ is not manifested when they meet because the vast majority of people gather to RECEIVE instead of to GIVE. However, to infuse a pseudo-life into it, they reach out to numbers physically to give the impression that they’re “alive,” thus limiting their influence spiritually.
The church of Laodicea was apparently a very large “church” numerically but one that had lost sight of its spiritual purpose, that of knowing Christ and having Him manifested among His people when they met.
Thus is the state of the majority of western “churches” today.
Todd Rhoades on Tue, November 01, 2005
This is in response to Randy’s post a few up about growing and swelling…
I like that Randy…
One question though… well, not really a question, but rather, an observation.
I don’t know if I’m just a more optomistic or positive person or what… but when I see growth, I first look for the living thing.
When many others see growth, they first look for swelling and bloating.
I’m not sure if it comes down to the way we look at life or what. I know a lot of pastors and work with literally tons and tons of churches. I guess I would rather give the benefit of the doubt toward growth because I think that God is growing His church in certain areas. This, of course, is without looking at certain cases individually.
And I would reckon to say that sometimes when something bloats or swells, it may be God working (actually growing) rather than the bloating and swelling of death.
I’m not sure what the difference between our two points of view comes down to? I really don’t think it’s a theological issue; maybe just more of philosophy.
Does that make sense? Any ideas on this one?
Also, Randy on your next post… you throw out a 90% figure of unhealthy churches. I think the figure is high… I’m not sure that it’s that high. But what I think is funny is that while we agree with your definition above (I think it was really good) we would probably pick different churches to fit in on the 10% healthy, just from out different outlooks. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Todd
Ricky on Tue, November 01, 2005
Quote:
“Dying churches don’t bear fruit.”
That would depend upon one’s definition of “dying.”
A group of God’s people who “die” to themselves daily will ALWAYS bear fruit.
A group of God’s people who “die” to the temptations of trying to make a name for themselves, for the “sake of Christ,” of course, will ALWAYS bear fruit.
A group of God’s people refuse to be bullied into following all of the “church growth” models of today, knowing that numbers do not equal health, will ALWAYS bear fruit.
A group of God’s people who “die” to the temptation to believe that only a few can “equip the Body,” thus living the fact that it is every believer’s responsibility to exhort, encourage and edity fellow believers will ALWAYS bear fruit.
A group of God’s people who “die” to the notion that God has “called” them to amass large numbers of “converts” and to accommodate them by building ever-increasing buildings, will ALWAYS bear fruit.
I could go on and on. It’s a matter of perspective.
As Jesus taught concerning the “grain of wheat,” death is a door to the REAL life, God’s life…and much, lasting, pure FRUIT.
Todd on Tue, November 01, 2005
Randy also wrote…
I wonder how some of your SS (read Seeker Sensitive) buddies would react to the idea that if this is truly growth and not swelling, it has nothing to do with their state of the art marketing techniques and everything to do with God in his sovereign mercy granting success to the gospel.
My response… I don’t think any church has ever grown because of projectors and sound equipment. Those aren’t the gospel. They are merely tools to present the gospel. Just like the sound system your church probably uses; the hymns and songs that you sing; the pews you sit in; the cross on the wall; the suit or dress you where. It all sets the mood, the ambiance if you will, to where and how the gospel is presented. (All of this stuff both you and the SS movement uses by the way, is extra-biblical… the Bible is really silent on the style of music we use; what we wear; whether we use a projector or a hymnal; or whether we advertise our services with a a crappy looking flyer at wal-mart or a four color post card delivered through the postal service.)
I think they would say that just as non-ss churches set the tone for the gospel in their services, they are doing the same. Different approach. Same God.
Todd
Rev. Donald E. Paul Jr. on Tue, November 01, 2005
I truely beleive that no matter what the number is in the church when God stops being the center of that churchs being or that pastors heart or that congregations sight then the church is dead. With out God the only thing drawing people in is the entertainment value. The singing and worship the fun of church but if your goal of reaching the lost and dying souls for heaven then the church is dead and the pastor should leave and bring in someone else to do the job because he has lost his effectiveness. Jesus’s whole reason for coming to this earth and dying on the Cross was to be that bridge between God and Man if we are not reaching the lost then the function of the church is gone and it should close no matter how many attend
Page 1 of 3 pages 1 2 3 >
Post a Comment