MondayMorningInsight - Leadership & Encouragement for Church Leaders

For All Of You Upset About Mark Driscoll’s Take on Women…

Posted by: Todd
Posted on: Thu, April 09, 2009
Viewed 79
(27) comments so far

Mark Driscoll has taken alot of flack for his view of women in ministry. Many have taken his view of women in leadership and misconstrued it to mean that Mark doesn't value women. After watching this clip, I think we can put that issue to rest. Driscoll is actually quite articulate on the other end of the spectrum as well: Men need to treat women with respect and dignity. Listen to Mark as he gets fired up against them 'boys' in his own church that don't treat women with respect. Let's just say that it ticks him off just a little...

I find it rather refreshing to hear a pastor ask his men to 'man up'. What do you think?

Comments

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Peter Hamm on Fri, April 10, 2009

Too strong for a pre-communion exhortation, imho.

But calling men to be men is Driscoll’s thing and he does it well. It’s okay to not molly-coddle your congregation… but that strong right before communion (as it seems from the clip was the context for this)? I don’t think so…
CS on Fri, April 10, 2009

Peter:

“But calling men to be men is Driscoll’s thing and he does it well. It’s okay to not molly-coddle your congregation… but that strong right before communion (as it seems from the clip was the context for this)? I don’t think so…”

Perhaps you’re right about the timing of such a rebuke, but there was one thing I liked directly relevant to the upcoming communion. He reflected on 1 Corinthians 11:28-30 and made a huge point of it to people.

I almost never hear the admonishment of self-examination prior to taking the Lord’s Supper and the possible consequences of such. If I do hear of any sort of self-reflection, it’s usually done in a superficial sense, kind of a , “Quick, tell God you’re sorry once more before you put the bread in your mouth. We don’t have time to wait. The band’s about to play again and we have to then take the offering.”

I wish more pastors would talk about people who capriciously eat and drink may be putting their very lives at risk and adding damnation to their heads. I’m grateful for Driscoll saying this.

—

CS
Peter Hamm on Fri, April 10, 2009

CS,

I like that, too. I had somebody (actually a pastor with a seminary degree) say to me when I objected to us making communion easy for anybody who wants to to take… he said something like “well, come on, what’s the worst that can happen”?

I said “how about death or illness?”

A simple explanation that we encourage baptized Christians to partake, but don’t feel pressured if you’re not or if you don’t feel like you should or want to would even have gone a long way…
Leonard on Sat, April 11, 2009

I did not much care for this approach. I am sure in it’s Mars Hill context it was fine but it seems more commanding than leading. It came across shrill to me. In my context the words would work for the most part but the tone wouldn’t.
Fred on Sat, April 11, 2009

Mark is making up for “inadequacies” by acting so macho. Why can’t he just be a normal Christian man and leave the show for the circus? I am not impressed in the least.
Claire on Sun, April 12, 2009

I wonder if Mark includes himself in this little admonition. Or, maybe it’s only possible to disrespect a woman sexually. Mocking a person’s intelligence, their ability to discern, or using “to feminize” or “chickify” as pejoratives are, to Mark’s mind, not examples of disrespect.

I am someone who is on the fence about this “church/Christianity” business, and I have to say, when I listen to Mark, it pushes me to the “not for me” side of that fence. I fully understand the need for macho, chest-thumping men (and, please understand, I LOVE macho, chest thumping men…they’re awesome!) to have a religion that they can connect to. They need and deserve as much. But, does it always have to be at the expense and demonization of “the other”? If masculine is positive, does it always have to follow that feminine is worthy of disdain? To tell you the truth, when I listen to Mark’s talks,I come away feeling as though I am only of slightly higher value than livestock. So, I don’t really know where a girl has to go to feel lifted up, valued, respected and cared for. Not here, apparently.

So, this tirade of Mark’s sounds pretty hollow to my ears. More like a preening peacock with feathers on display.

Maybe Mark forgot to finish his sentence…

“You men are a joke! How dare you come into this church and disrespect a woman….because that’s my job!”
John on Mon, April 13, 2009

I really like Driscoll, but he’s just a man like all the rest of us. He had a great message but should have left “what the hell” out of it. He just green lighted everyone there (including any children/teens) to talk like this. What can a parent say to their child who mimics this kind of speech? We can get carried away with “being real”. I’ve had plenty of"reality” from people in church that has only caused me heartache - and that is why leaders need to be not just real, but real examples to the flock. That aside, I think the world of Mark and how he has impacted my own approach to ministry.
Wendi Hammond on Mon, April 13, 2009

Claire –

Thank you for jumping into the discussion here. I’m curious about how you found your way to MMI and how you happen to listen to Mark Driscoll.

It’s reasonable that you would evaluate Christianity by watching those who follow Jesus. Jesus Himself said that the world would see Him by watching how we love one another. This is the goal of course, but it’s true that we don’t always act loving. We’re all in a process.

I’m one who agrees with you that Driscoll sometimes (often??) sounds disrespectful toward women, even when he’s talking to men. Calling them “chickified” or “feminized” if they aren’t the bread winner or don’t insure that their wives are subordinate to them are examples of what (to me also) is demeaning to women. There have been other examples.

I’m generally in agreement with his statements on this particular video segment, though I’m not crazy about the Machismo style. Nevertheless, I agree with you that when he uses the phrase “respect women” in general terms, he has little credibility with me because of what I feel is his overall disrespectful posture toward women.

Despite this, I believe that Mark loves Jesus and wants to help people find and follow Him. His methods of doing so differ from mine, and apparently yours. I encourage you to keep looking (but please don’t look for perfection). I know without a doubt, that if you keep looking for someone who does “church/Christianity” in a way that is honoring and respectful, you will find it. Because the search is really for Jesus Himself – and He will be found by everyone who looks for Him.

Wendi
BC on Mon, April 13, 2009

Guilt and Shame. Guilt and shame. Guilt and shame.
Tom Dooley on Thu, April 16, 2009

I don’t think “real men” have to swear at other men. I don’t appreciate his worldly way of speech. I know I don’t sound too hip and may be labled a legalist ect… but frankly I wouldn’t tolerate a coach talking to my son that way let alone a pastor. I don’t think it is cool. It wasn’t holy. To be honest he lost me when he said, “Who the blank do you think you are?” I still believe Pastor’s ought to set an example… even in their speech. To me it is really sad.
Amy on Mon, April 20, 2009

Well. what do women pastors do about the scripture that speaks out against our gender teaching and having authority over men? I can only come up with the explanation that the women must have someone over them (a man) that permits it, or men who don’t object to it in their congreagation.

I know a man who totally respects and honors women, who has had women bosses that he’s admired and looked up to, but when his church allowed a woman to preach that Sunday, he left, for reverence of God’s Word. He says he doesn’t understand why the bible says it, except that it does, and we are not to pick and choose what we think is right or not.

I’ve seen women evangelists and leaders in other ways mentioned in the bible, but not as pastors, except when co-teaching with a spouse in an informal setting (not at the church meeting.) Perhaps men are to step up to the plate and become the leaders God designed them to be, and women should lead, teach, etc. in other ways as to fully encompass the truly biblical role He has for us - without usurping headship over the men.

So, we women are given the title of “pastor” when we graduate in seminary. That doesn’t give us license to shepherd over the whole church, I believe. It is a reverent title that God will give us the right way to use it if we trust Him, pride out of the way!

Believe in God’s Holy Word. Respect it. Remember we are to die to ourselves and let the Lord give us the life we are to lead, totally submitted to Him. This is true happiness, now and eternally!
David on Tue, April 21, 2009

Wow. Not at what Driscoll said, but at the responses.

To those ticked at the way he “preached”. I believe it’s 1 Corinthians 1:21 that says preaching is foolishness. A lot of preachers (myself included) need to be a little more concerned about what we, as individuals, are doing for the Kingdom and less concerned about what others are doing for the Kingdom. Jesus addressed this issue with his disciples when they showed concern about others calling out demons.

Regarding this clip, I have never “seen” anyone preach to that degree of conviction. I have seen a few preachers get fired up, but this was different. Sure, I have “heard” some sermons where preachers preached with deep conviction, but this felt different. Here I really felt like Driscoll wasn’t preaching for Mars Hill’s approval, or ours, but rather speaking a message that God wanted him to speak.

As for the cussing. Scripturaly, Paul told Timothy we should have purity in speech and set an example to others. But even so, Jeremiah was known as a young and cussing (and weeping and depressed) prophet. Even Paul, the Apostle, used strong language, including a, sometimes translated, four letter word.

Everything Driscoll said was right on. Further, we have to look at the context of his message. By context I mean geographically, and even socially. I doubt many could preach effectively in Seattle. It’s a different culture. What he preaches in his town may not fly in your town (I know it wouldn’t work here). The internet causes us to forget the geographical context of a message, I believe.

Where Driscoll and I part ways is I have problems with his Calvinism (he is still my brother in Christ though), but the “dude” can flat out preach. God has blessed him and Mars Hill. Some of the comments on this sight neglect that aspect.

With all that being said…My wife and I watched the video, together. I leaned over to my wife and told her I loved her. She said, “I know and you better, or I will call Mark Driscoll…”

all about Christ,

David