Giving Rick Warren the What Not…
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Thu, June 05, 2008
- Viewed 155
- (61) comments so far
You can read the rest of the article here. I’d love to hear what you think, good or bad…
Last month, Rick Warren invited a good number of his online detractors to his Purpose Driven Conference. When Bob DeWaay got his invitation, he declined (even though Saddleback offered to pay his travel and entire trip). When asked to reconsider, Bob says, "since the Bible says that we should be ready to give a reason for our hope in the gospel (1Peter 3:15) I decided to go." He writes an article (entitled "My Visit to Ask Rick Warren to Preach Christ) over at the Christian Worldview Network. Here's how he starts off:
"I arrived in time on Thursday to hear the last hour and a half of the conference, which featured Warren promoting his PEACE plan. It was typical of many other Warren speeches I have listened to. He spoke about meeting with world leaders and how he plans to help them solve problems in their countries. He gave reasons why 1 billion Christians are the best hope of solving the world’s biggest problems. What was lacking was any commitment to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ clearly to all people. That was exactly what I planned to urge Warren to do when I met him. Listening to his speech only reinforced that commitment.
After the speech (and some seriously loud, ear-splitting music) I was able to meet up with fellow Warren critic, Mr. Chris Rosebrough, who had attended each day of the conference. We waited for about an hour while Warren held a press conference—he eventually appeared for our meeting with about a half dozen others.
At the beginning of our meeting Warren asked us to share our “stories” with him. Both of us had come out of bad doctrine and faulty movements to become gospel centric. I shared my experience of learning church growth theory at seminary and showed him a first edition copy of his book The Purpose Driven Church that was required reading for me in 1996. I also shared how discouraging it was to study church growth teaching when our inner city church was shrinking at the time. I shared how I found hope and inspiration from John MacArthur and that I chose his ministry model rather than church growth theory..."
Comments
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Danny Daniels on Thu, June 05, 2008
Not a bad article. He wasn’t nearly as beligerent as I had expected. He seems to have a genuine concern that he believes in.
Joel Johns on Thu, June 05, 2008
I applaud both guys. I am impressed that Rick went to the effort to hear his detractors and it sounds as if this guy really wants to see the gospel spread. I think we tend to jump too quickly into opposing camps. Thanks Todd for bringing this out.
Chris Elrod on Thu, June 05, 2008
Hmmm…very interesting. I particularly liked the part where he plugged his own books…that were written…to take shots at another book. Much to think about…much to be concerned about…even more to be disturbed about.
Sam on Thu, June 05, 2008
Chris, I think the reason that DeWaay “plugged his own books” is that in his book Redefining Christianity (have you read it? You may want to to get an accurate representation of DeWaay’s concerns) he goes into extensive details about his concerns. If you read DeWaay’s account, he was more concerned with Warren’s preaching the Gospel than he was spending that time going over the concerns of the PD model that he details in his book.
Here is another matter that involves Rick Warren concerning the glory of the local church. I would love for your opinions on this:
http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=65985
and Rick Warren’s response:
http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=65944
Kevin Bussey on Thu, June 05, 2008
Todd,
Did you need more hits today by bringing up Rick? http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
I don’t get why people trash him. I’ve been to the PDC conference and he does preach Jesus. They have baptized over 20,000 people. Have they not heard Ricks, “Just tell them about Jesus! message? I’m sick of the “Church Police!”
Mark on Thu, June 05, 2008
I thought the most interesting paragraph was:
“When I researched for my book Redefining Christianity, I found that the deeper I dug into the movement, the more conservative it appeared. Warren and Purpose Driven appear liberal in public (at least to us critics) and conservative in private. I describe this phenomenon as “file cabinet orthodoxy” in chapter 8 of my book.[iii] “
Interesting to see how dismissive a critic can be, even when their own research “uncovers” a different story.
Sam on Thu, June 05, 2008
Kevin,
20k baptism does not necessarily equate to 20k true salvations. Some of those people may have merely got wet. If you are sick of the church police you must not like the Bereans as well who checked what Paul said was in line with scriptures.
Critiquing Warren does not equate to trashing Warren. Warren markets his PD approach to “doing church” to churches all throughout the country. As with any teaching that is brought into the church, careful examination must be done to ensure it lines up with scripture. That is what Bob DeWaay has done in his book. DeWaay critiques Warren but also praises him and makes the same Gospel appeal in his book that he did to Warren in person.
Also, Kevin, read the links i gave you and give me your assesment of who should receive glory, the church and man or God.
Kevin Bussey on Thu, June 05, 2008
Sam,
Where is Rick lifting himself up? Also 20K baptisms represent changed lives. How do you know they aren’t real conversions? Why don’t Christians quit attacking each other and preach the gospel?
I read your links and still don’t get it.
Sam on Thu, June 05, 2008
RIck is saying that scripture supports his position that God wants the church and His body to receive glory instead of God receiving glory THROUGH the church. There is a difference. Do you agree with that?
And how do you know that all 20K baptism are true conversions? Neither of us do. But the Bible does give several instances of people turning from the faith and if you look at 1 John 2:19 it describes that as well. A changed life does not in and of itself prove true salvation. People claim watching Oprah changed their life. People claim that the mormon, islam, JW, or pick your false religion changed their life.
Again, just because someone critiques someone and tests what they say against scripture as we are SUPPOSED to do because of the vast amount of false teachers that have crept into the church today does not mean that they are being attacked.
AND it is not an either/or proposition. Just because someone practices discernment does not mean that they do not preach the gospel. One does not have to throw away sound biblical judgement or discernment in order to evangelize.
Kevin Bussey on Thu, June 05, 2008
Sam,
This is my pet peeve—Church Police. My parents have been in the ministry since the early 1960’s with Youth For Christ and now Campus Crusade. My dad was always criticized (usually from the denomination we attended—SBC) because of his methods of reaching students for Christ.
Read Philippians 1:15-18
It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
That is what we should be doing! I rejoice in what God is doing through Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Andy Stanley and the small church down the street.
Peter Hamm on Thu, June 05, 2008
A nicely balanced article, and I think both Rick and Bob are to be commended for commencing this discussion.
Sam,
I thought RW did a great job or answering that criticism.
CS on Thu, June 05, 2008
There is also some great analysis of Rick Warren taking place by the other critic of his means at http://www.extremetheology.com. Chris is doing a great job of breaking things down analytically, with politeness and candor.
Kevin:
In regards to your quote about Philippians 1, the argument that stems in regards to Warren is not that he is preaching the Gospel out of sincerity and love, but that he is not preaching the full Gospel on a regular basis. He is omitting the cross in favor of creating a new sort of law. I direct you to the analysis done at the website I cited at http://www.extremetheology.com/2008/06/rick-warren-p-2.html for some more information.
—
CS
CS on Thu, June 05, 2008
Peter:
“I thought RW did a great job or answering that criticism.”
I read through the response from Warren about his PEACE plan being criticized, and I would say he did a poor job. In justifying his point about how the church gets the glory, he abused Scripture pretty badly. Someone did a verse-by-verse analysis of his talking points, and it becomes clear that his arguments about to whom belongs the glory falls pretty short. You can check it out at:
http://herescope.blogspot.com/2008/06/who-gets-glory-for-doing-good.html
—
CS
Leonard on Thu, June 05, 2008
Sam, it is true that some of these have merely gotten wet, This was a problem in the first century and is still today. Even Paul’s converts ran away.
I found it interesting Bob decided to attend the last hour and a half of the conference. Hardly the invitation that he received. I find all this a bit wearying in that it is the same old conversation. “Rick said this, Rick said that and this and that don’t jive with my understanding of Christianity and the Bible.”
Sam the Bereans were not church police in the same way many people function today. They did not run around after every word of Paul and say, did those people in Philipi really get saved or did they just get wet. They did not say… Most pastors just go from conference to conference on the churches dime… They also did not spend time examining Paul, Silas, Apollos and others, they spent time examining the scriptures to verify the message.
Peter Hamm on Thu, June 05, 2008
CS,
I disagree, because he STARTS with “I believe Jesus Christ deserves all the glory. It is the purpose of life.”
Anyway, I’m getting really weary of some of the criticisms that I find wanting more in substance all the time.
I’m glad I don’t have every single thing I say picked apart like RW does. If I did, I’d stop surfing the internet, for sure…
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