Monday Morning Insights

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    JM on Emergent:  “Let’s light some candles and incense and think good thoughts abou

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    In the article, John talks about the emergent church, and gives a synopsis of the health of the church today…

    On the Emergent Church:  “They are saying, in effect, that God may have spoken, but He mumbled, and we’re not really sure what He said. Saying that Scripture is not clear is just another way to undermine biblical authority.”

    “This is not an intellectual movement. This is not a movement that has discovered evidence that overturns inspiration, evidence that overturns inerrancy or authority. This is a movement born of people who do not want to accept the clarity of Scripture.”

    “To claim that the Bible is not sufficiently clear is to assault God’s own wisdom and integrity.”

    “It allows them not to take a position on homosexuality, premarital sex, or anything, besides ‘Let’s light some candles and incense, think good thoughts about Jesus, and give to the poor.’”

    (I am not a fan of all in the emergent movement… and some of it makes me uncomfortable.  But clustering everyone into one big pile of candle-lighting, poor-giving, think good thoughts about Jesus, homosexual loving, anything goes advocates is more than just a little wrong. Some in the emerging movement are pretty dag gone conservative theologically.  But many tackle culture a tad differently than JM does.  And for that, he lumps them in with the most liberal of the emergents.)

    “The assault has never stopped since the Garden...it just escalates and escalates and escalates. It takes different forms and moves in whatever direction the mood of the mob—the spirit of the age—dictates.”

    “All the great heroes of the faith end up becoming fools. And the antiheroes—the fools who compromise and who don’t take a stand—become the heroes...It’s turning history on its head.  They undo the Reformation so they can go back to a quasi-Christian, medieval spirituality.”

    The church today is “quite possibly more susceptible to false teachers, doctrinal saboteurs, and spiritual terrorism than any other generation in church history. Biblical ignorance within the church may well be deeper and more widespread than any other time since the Protestant Reformation.”

    (just for the record… I love the words he uses:  what is a quasi-christian, what is medieval spirituality, what’s a doctrinal saboteur, and is the term ‘spiritual terrorism’ a new term he’s coining?)

    With the seeker sensitive movement “You end up with a very, very marginally knowledgeable church, largely made up of unconverted people.”

    “I hear pastors say to me, ‘Oh, I believe the Word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword,’ and I say, ‘It’s good that you say that, but when I hear you preach, you tell a bunch of stories and a bunch of cultural insights. You think your own inventions have more power than the Word of God?’”

    From Answers Magazine.

    Interesting article.  I’m sorry… gotta go.  I’m having some of my gay brothers over so we can sniff candles and think nice thoughts about Jesus.  Then we’re running down to the bar to do our Bible study.  We’re studying the three verses in John that we still find acceptable according to our cultural interpretation.  Anyone care to join us?

    Todd

    (Sorry… sometimes I get in a sarcastic mood, and it gets the best of me.) For the record, I think John MacArthur is a good guy; and I think he’s sincere in his teaching.  I just think he’s a little wrong many times.  And I’m sure he’d share the same feeling about me (except, maybe, about me being a good guy).

    Here are some great quotes from John MacArthur from a recent edition of Answers magazine. Great quotes, not because I agree with them... most I do not. They are harsh and many times over reactive, in my opinion. John's radio program is called Grace to You; but sometimes it appears that that grace is only bestowed on you if you believe exactly as he does. Kind of reminds me of the soup nazi on the old Seinfeld episode. (Seinfeld, for all you MacArthurites, was a popular hit show in the American culture in the 1980s.) His line was... "No Soup for You." Well, if you're a pastor who's reading MMI, it quite possibly could read, "No Grace for You."

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    1. kent on Thu, September 20, 2007

      At some point we are going to grow up enough to stop pitching rocks at at one another and do the work of the kingdom. I confess I have never been a fan of or paid attention to John MacArthur. It is probably because of attitudes like these. And Todd you nailed it with the soup nazi idea.


      John MacAthur is not the guardian of my theology, no I know appointed the guardian of the church. I do not have the time to watch others I have enough trouble taking care of my self.

    2. Derek on Thu, September 20, 2007

      Todd,


      The sarcasm is warranted and I always find it refreshing. Johnny Mac is a good teacher, I still remember his teachings on Paul’s missionary journeys…teaching I heard on No Soup for You when I was in college.


      I have no problem with Johnny Mac as a Bible teacher. I do have problems when he stands as prophet/judge over the Body of Christ. His position is always the same, no matter who he is attacking…he doesn’t like Christians who are not like him (theologically, doctrinally, liturgically).


      Whether he attacks the charismatics (e.g. Charismatic Chaos) or the church growth guys (e.g. Ashamed of the Gospel) or the emergent church (book???)...Johnny Mac does the same thing…he pulls together the craziest stuff from the movement and builds a straw man and then sets it ablaze.


      He does lump everyone in a movement together and says, this is what the movement believes. He exaggerates and is unloving.


      My deal is this…other Christians need our correction and not condemnation. Johnny Mac tends to go the opposite route.


      g&p;Derek

    3. reGeN on Thu, September 20, 2007

      Derek nailed it for me.  Some in the body of Christ unknowingly exude this “I am the judge of what is sound doctrine” mentality that comes off as pompous and puffed up.   I too have some major issues with Emergent stuff but I also believe that it’s too easy and straight up LAZY to not take the time and get a handle on what different Emergent leaders are teaching so that we don’t wrongfully accuse people of heresy.

    4. Jerry on Thu, September 20, 2007

      Is is just me, or isn’t it the height of hypocrisy for JM to give grace, yet espouse so deep a prejudice for that which he doesn’t care to investigate fully? How can he say he extends grace, yet condemn what he doesn’t understand, or care to understand? Sounds a little pharisitical to me.


      Look, I’m not for diluting the Word of God or saying that it doesn’t have the power it once did, but putting everyone into one pot is just plain wrong.  If I wanted, I could say,  by what JM said in these quotes, that he is an angry, jealous man whose main concern is shooting down his ‘competition’ and the only true followers of Christ go to his church.

    5. Peter Hamm on Thu, September 20, 2007

      I could very easily come up with a whole list of simple mis-understandings of what John says like he appears to do with the “emergent” leaders (whatever that means) but I just… choose… not to…

    6. John Morris on Thu, September 20, 2007

      One thing I think it’s important to remember is whenever anyone writes an article or book in this day and age, they HAVE to be extreme and controversial in order to provoke thought. I don’t necessarily believe that JM wanted to utterly pass judgment on Emergent theology as much as he wanted to make everyone stand up and think. Let’s face it…it’s only the church “geeks” that talk about this stuff. Regular people ARE easily deceived by bad theology and rarely go deeper in their faith than “I know Jesus….Jesus and ME!”. So, in order to warn the flock “Hey guys, you need to get informed about THIS…” JM writes an absolute hit piece, knowing fully that polarizing extreme opinions cause people to think for a second about an issue, and maybe even do a little (GULP) reading…


      The culture war in the church is a war against everything else in the “Average Joe” christian life, and getting them somehow equipped to be spiritually deeper than a puddle, whether seeker-sensitive, fundamentalist, traditional, emergent, or any other clique in the larger body.

    7. Daniel on Thu, September 20, 2007

      On the positive side, MacArthur’s behavior shows that he thinks some ideas are genuinely dangerous…  He’s right, even if he might be wrong about which ideas are dangerous…

    8. Brad Raby on Thu, September 20, 2007

      In the MacArthurian spirit of showing Todd his error - I must point out as a Seinfeld fan that the show was popular in the 1990s - not the 1980s. Being that it debuted in 1990.


      No Soup for you, Schmoopie!

    9. Todd Rhoades on Thu, September 20, 2007

      It just seemed like the 80s, I guess.  Sorry for the error. 


      http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif


      Todd

    10. Derek on Thu, September 20, 2007

      John - “Church geeks” I represent that remark! [insert dorky laugh here] Seriously, you are right on…the average pew-dweller is easily swayed by bad theology


      Brad - In keeping with the Johny Mac spirit of correcting errors..“schmoopie” is spelled “shmoopy.”


      Yours is a common misspelling of the Seinfeldian term of endearment used in episode 115 which aired on Nov. 2 1995 written by Spike Feresten.


      Ok, I confess I am a Seinfeld addict!


      Derek

    11. Brad Raby on Thu, September 20, 2007

      Not so fast my friend…I always spelled it ‘shmoopy’ until TBS did a trivia question in which the answer was ‘Schmoopie’


      http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/grin.gif

    12. Derek on Thu, September 20, 2007

      TBS - Ha! - they are hacks…. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/grin.gif


      I used to spell it “schmoopie”… I actually call my wife schmoopy or moopy…anyway, I got the correct spelling here:


      http://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheSoupNazi.htm


      SeinfeldScripts.com is reportedly an authority in the Seinfeld universe.


      Derek

    13. Leonard on Thu, September 20, 2007

      Wow, what a couple of geeks.  You should be talking about the A Team and the 80’s with a little Dukes thrown into the mix.  Dang I’m getting old…


      Mac is right in that there are a good many people (emergentistas) who come across as if God mumbled.  I will also say there are a good many of the (modernistas) who come across as of God shouted everything in 5 points to Calvin. 


      It is the need to lump people all together and then burn the whole pile that bugs me and then he is defended by those who say…He studies 40 hours a week…

    14. Andy McAdams on Thu, September 20, 2007

      I don’t agree with everything that John says, but I do agree with a lot that he says.  Let me say that as long as I have known John (personally) he is a man of conviction and integrity.  He is not the guardian of the church and would never accept that claim if given to him.  However, he is brave enough to speak out about the things that he believes is dangerous for the church in general that frankly is in trouble in many ways.  He’s not always correct…but often he is.  I have enough discernment to make up my own mind when reading what he says as well as what others say. 


      I don’t think that you can sum up all of the so-called Emergent Church Movement into one, but the things that John says has some merit with many. 


      I suppose what bothers me more then the comments and observations made by a man that that faithfully pastured for over 30 years with great success, seen thousands come to Christ and planted hundreds of churches worldwide, are some of the comments made within this post and the comments by its readers about that man.  Yes…John is at times unmovable and appears to be legalistic (yet, is one of the most gracious men I’ve ever met). 


      To make comments about his hair (which is his btw) or that his conviction and how he communicates it makes him like the soup nazi is less then gracious. 


      One more thing.  The fact that John has his own Study Bible to me is an honorable thing.  It is simply a translation that also includes his notes and insights from years of scholarly study.  I don’t recall anyone making comments when Charles Ryie and C.I. Schofield did the same thing.  BTW…Schofield was far less flexible then MacArthur by far.

    15. Todd Rhoades on Thu, September 20, 2007

      Andy,


      You have a point about the hair comment.  I’m going to delete that one.  I think the person was trying to be funny, but it could be taken as mean spirited.


      I’m the one who compared John to the Soup Nazi.  All I’m saying is that he doesn’t extend very much grace (at least in his public appearances and in his writings) for those who might disagree with him. 


      For example, just read the quotes above. 


      I have no doubt that John is very personable.  (Maybe the three of us could do lunch the next time I’m in So. Cal).  He seems like a nice enough guy.  It’s just the way he lumps everyone into the same basket, then proceeds to trounce on them… that’s what bothers most of us.


      For example… John pastors a mega-church.  So does Joel Osteen and T. D. Jakes.  But if I were to put them all in the same boat, then what I’d get would be skewed results.


      We can’t lump John in with all other mega-church pastors.  We can’t lump him in with all churches in California.  He’s a radio preacher, but he’s much different than some of the others.


      Same with emergent, ss, and the like.  You just can’t lump them all together, take the most extreme examples, and call it all evil.  To do so is a gross exageration and majorly playing with the facts.


      And that’s what I see John doing so many times.


      And, if you don’t match up… no soup for you.


      Todd

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