“Mark Driscoll has boldly led the parade down this carnal path…”
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Wed, April 15, 2009
- Viewed 200
- (48) comments so far
Well… since you asked… here are some thoughts of mine on the ‘sex series craze’:
1. As with anything, you need to be balanced. If you’re doing two series on sex each year, then you might be a little skewed. Sex is an important Biblical topic to tackle, but not every other week.
2. Some of the campaigns (not nearly all) have pushed the line a little for (even) me. That’s the way things roll. You start with one church starting a series, and others copy and take it to the next level. That’s the danger. My advice… use a little discretion. Otherwise we get go down the path of mykinkylustynightofpassion.com. There… I’ll side with MacArthur.
3. MacArthur claims that the Bible has ‘no hint of sophomoric lewdness in the Bible’. Well, the only word I would take issue with here is ‘sophomoric’. Sophomoric is subjective. Certainly, John isn’t saying that the Bible avoids telling us about lewd acts and sexual practices (both healthy and deviant). In fact, the Bible, I’ve found is very graphic at times in matters of sex, murder, and the human story. And the KJV is as ‘tell it like it is’ as any version.
4. It seems to me that MacArthur’s tirade would seem to have more credibility if the people he’s lumping together were teaching something that wasn’t Biblical. He might not like the way the material is presented. It may be sensationalistic to him. But every sex series that I’ve seen or heard of comes down to this: Biblical sexuality. One man. One Woman (no homosexuality, lesbianism, trannies, etc. allowed). No pre-marital sex. No extra-marital sex. How to deal with lust. Those topics, given our current culture, seem like admirable topics. Oh, and yes… Biblical as well.
5. I find it somewhat ironic… no unbelieveably ironic that John names his article “The Rape of Solomon’s Song”. What a provocative title. Does John know what RAPE means? Does John realize that the word RAPE is no where to be found in the Bible (at least the King James version). What a sensationalistic title. OK, maybe it’s not as sensationalistic as SolomonsBeenRaped.com; but I think you get the idea. Why did John feel the need to use this title? Could it be the same reason that churches use things like MyStupidSexLife.com. It gets your attention. And once you have attention, you can tell your story. It’s the same thing, isn’t it?!
Regardless...MacArthur is on a mission for the next few days: “I keep encountering young pastors who are now following that same example, and I’m rather surprised that the trend has been so well received in the church with practically no significant critics raising any serious objections. So we’re going to analyze and critique this approach to Song of Solomon over the next couple of days, including a look at some specific examples where the line of propriety has clearly been breached.” So, I guess that John is now labeling himself a ‘significant’ critic that will raise some ‘serious’ objections (you know, since no one else will step up to do it).
Yippee.
What do you think?
Todd
PS—You can read all of MacArthur’s thoughts here...
John MacArthur is at it again. This time, John is taking on sex in the church; or at least the 'talking about sex' in the church. And Mark Driscoll is in his sight this time: "Apparently the shortest route to relevance in church ministry right now is for the pastor to talk about sex in garishly explicit terms during the Sunday morning service. If he [the pastor] can shock parishioners with crude words and sophomoric humor, so much the better. The defenders of this trend solemnly inform us that without such a strategy it is well-nigh impossible to connect with today's "culture." No offense to John, but I've never heard even one of these 'sex pastors' use the term 'well-nigh'...
Comments
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jud on Thu, April 16, 2009
I’m pinching myself !!!
It seems to me that John MacArthur makes a lot of Pastors uncomfortable. I don’t really believe it’s because he “thinks he’s the only one who has it right” (to paraphrase a common jab at the man). I think it’s because the guy probably out prepares or studies any other pastor out there… and he’s done that for years. i have sat under numerous pastors who have a similar ethic about preparation. I’ve also sat under a number of pastors who spend the week politicking with either “important” or well monied residents, slugging down lattes at the coffee shop with their buds, spending HOURS trying to produce some kind of Rob Bell video clone. heading cross country for another conference and so on…
With SO many churches putting their audio/ video online, I challenge anyone here to find a pastor who doesn’t spend the first 15 minutes of his 25 talking about himself, his kids, his week etc. It’s filler !! It’s a very revealing indicator of the seriousness many of our leaders place on the precious few minutes of instructional time they have with the flock ! Not much there FAR too often.
It clearly shows the shift away from Biblical emphasis to the belief that Christians can simply be grown by a “relational” approach.
I have left many a service knowing much more about the man under the lights than Jesus Christ and his coming Kingdom.
DW on Thu, April 16, 2009
HEY JUD, YOU ARE RIGHT. I hate it when Jesus talked about farming, and camels, and vines and branches. I wish he did away with all that “filler” and just taught the truth. He’s just like these modern day fluff preachers.
Peter Hamm on Thu, April 16, 2009
Jud,
NOW you lost me…
I don’t think that MacArthur-style expository preaching (the kind rarely if ever practiced by Jesus) is the only way to go, and John thinks that.
I think there is nothing wrong with a pastor spending significant amounts of time out of the office in coffee shops and restaurants and “third places” to be with the people in his community, and I think preparing 30 hours or more for a sermon is a worse situation, because it totally isolates the pastor from the people he’s speaking to.
I think there is NOTHING wrong and everything right with using my life as an example in a sermon, especially in the ways I fall short.
And I think that the best way to grow Christians is a relational approach…
So, we’re back to square one, but I love you anyway!
Cliff Ames on Thu, April 16, 2009
RT: http://talesfromtheyellowbrickroad.com/blog
At the end of his most recent post JMac said:
Several questions have come up repeatedly from people who have commented on these articles, and in tomorrow’s final installment, I want to answer as many of them as possible.
I hope some of those questions are:
1. Why post a link to something you consider to be “crude”? Isn’t that just as bad as saying it yourself?
2. Why have you ignored Mark’s post about his repenting of the recording that caused you to start this whole series?
3. Why must you use a “know-it-all” legalistic approach to your post, rather then a humble, loving tone that even Mark has used to address critics like you? (See: The Resurgence: “John MacArthur On Bible Teaching”)
If JMac refuses to answer questions like these then there is only one thing to say…
John MacArthur… you need to repent!
Leonard on Thu, April 16, 2009
John’s study doesn’t make me uncomfortable. He is who he is and I would trust that he does what he believes he should do in his studying. I know many pastors who do this as well. I am not sure he out prepares all those other pastors. This is simply rhetoric and unverifiable posturing. It is the fall back to those who defend John M for his attacks.
I do agree that some churches have gone to far in the teaching of sex, but to lay that t the feet of Driscoll is irresponsible.
Sam on Thu, April 16, 2009
Leonard,
I agree that it is not right to blame Driscoll for all of the far out series on sex that have spread through the nation’s churches. However, you can not deny his influence among young pastors throughout the nation. There are scores of pastors out there that imitate Driscoll on a weekly basis.
I do not think he is fully responsible but I do hope that he is fully aware of the influence he wields and recognize the responsibility that comes with that
Leonard on Thu, April 16, 2009
I agree Sam, but the people doing the sensational 30 days stuff are probably not Driscolites. Ed Young, Granger… I think these people need to re-examine some things concerning these kinds of series.
Driscoll recently said he is repenting and learning concerning who hears him and the impact of that.
I never hear John M say anything like that. In fact for the 35-40 years I have heard him, I cannot recall a single instance where I have heard anything remotely like this from him. I have from RW, Driscoll and several other prominent preachers. Maybe he doesn’t make mistakes. Must be all that studying he does. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
fred527 on Sat, April 18, 2009
I’m so sick of seeing “pastors” acting like shock jocks to draw attention to themselves and “their” church. It’s time to stop the gimmicks.
michael on Tue, April 21, 2009
The things I love about this sight:
You have small churches, large churches, well-educated, self-educated, followers, leaders, Christians who want everyone to “just get along”, Christians who talk poorly about people that they have never actually spent time with or met, but they’ve seen a video of them or read a story about them so now they “know” them, rich churches, poor churches, cutting-edge churches, traditional churches and EVERYTHING in between all of these. God love all of us…
You know what the GREAT news is… If you don’t like what MD has to say, you don’t have to go to his church or watch his videos… If you don’t like what JM has to say, you don’t have to go to church or watch his videos… I’m actually kind of ashamed of myself that I have spent the last 30 minutes reading these articles and everyone’s comments and views on them when I could have spent that time studying to be a better pastor. I understand iron sharpening iron and that is what most will argue is going on here, but as I think about it, I don’t actually know you. What you think about either of the men in question or whether you think my church is going too far or not far enough, that has no relevance to my people. For that reason, shame on all of us. It’s 10:30am and I’ve already spent too much time on the computer today. Quit caring about this stuff, shut off your computer and go do some ministry today. We aren’t impacting each others lives in a positive manner here today, so go be Jesus to someone that needs him.
Thanks MMI for the great articles, but from now on, I’m staying out of the comment section.
-michael
Russell Carroll on Thu, April 23, 2009
To me, the saddest part of this controversy is the lack of focus on the core issue driving this debate, that being sexual purity in the church. Its a big deal to God…it is a tough area to handle from either the church or the members standpoint…and most importantly it is a major open wound bleeding life out of Christians in the church, particularly men. You don’t need to attend too many mens retreats to realize this its true amongst sincere believers that want to please God and stumble in this area
I was very messed up when I came into the kingdom at 29 in the area of sexuality and marital intimacy. The incorrect take-away of the conviction of my past was that sex was dirty, even though I new early on that position was not biblical. I won’t speak to any specific methods for how a pastor or church tries to equip their congregations to be over-comers in the area of sexual temptation, but I will applaud any pastor or church taking it seriously and making a real effort to help us in this area, whether from the pulpit, groups, or counseling.
Not too many marriages that I am aware of are being destroyed by a misguided attack on a brother or an inappropriate reference from a pulpit. I wont even offer an opinion as to whether either has occurred because of the gravity of the bigger issue in my opinion.
At the risk of running afoul with my own pastor I would offer this on the Song of Solomon. It is pretty clear that it is a celebration of marriage in its poetic description of the passion and intimacy sexually between a husband and wife. I take that as Gods approval, endorsement, and encouragement for a husband and wife to enjoy one another in this very special way, and to not let the perversion of the world in this area diminish intimacy in any way. BTW I REALLY needed to hear that and am thankful the Lord didn’t leave me in ignorance about this.
In other words, I think the Song of Solomon is to and for husbands and wives in an area we need guidance in. Probably not a good book to be an expositor on on Sunday. However there are 65 other books to choose from. I’m not a theologian by any stretch, but I think it shines a light on how important marriage and sexual purity is to God. I know my wife and I have greatly benefited from the Song of Solomon together without the need for outside help on understanding this easy-to-understand scripture.
Russell Mckinney on Thu, April 23, 2009
Hey Russell Carroll, that was very well put.
J on Thu, April 23, 2009
Hey Russell Caroll,
Well said, I just would like to include one thought. When you said that “it is a major open wound bleeding life out of Christians in the church, particularly men” I would like to say that men aren’t alone (not that you are saying they are). Sin has never shown a gender preference. It’s true that 65% (at least) of women struggle with pornography. That’s just those that admit it. Women have affairs just as often, cheat just as often, and from my counseling experience and life experience, I found that women tend to push their ‘boyfriends’ physical boundaries much more than their ‘boyfriends’ pushed theirs. I think that (especially in the church) we have this idealized view of women. We even seem to have developed “men’s sins” and “women’s sins”. We take issues like porn and talk about it as a man’s problem and talk about body issues as a women’s problem when just about as many men struggle from body issues and just as many women struggle with sexual issues.
I’ve actually heard one person say, “Well, the women only struggle with sexual stuff for security reasons, the only reason they engage in premarital sex is for security reasons”. The women in the audienced laughed at that (of course). For some reason it seems that we have the need in the Christian church to differentiate between men and women in the area of sexual issues when the truth is, sexual sins tend to impact both genders evenly and for the same reasons. Sure, some women struggle in the area of sexuality for security issues but just as many men have those same issues. And CERTAINLY just as many women struggle with sexual issues for the plain and simple fact that they enjoy the way it feels and have to use self-control (just like men).
You did a great job writing. I just wanted to highlight a different area of the same subject…
bryonm on Mon, April 27, 2009
I rarely agree with MacArthur. But this time I do. But I don’t agree with his tactics of going public unless he’s had a private conversation with Driscoll about his crude teaching of Song of Solomon and Driscoll refused the counsel of a more experienced man. Driscoll was crude and more than pushed the limits of solid Bible interpretation, he re-interpreted his sex series to fit his own agenda. Sophomoric is a compliment. Adam Sandler or Ben Stiller could be the true authors of Driscoll’s material.
I question the motivation of pastors promoting their sex series. Sex sells. Everyone knows that. As usual, the church resorting to the methods of men to try to prove its relevance and coolness. It’s a joke. The emperor doesn’t know he’s naked.
Marv Plementosh on Mon, April 27, 2009
Driscoll needs to clean up his language and most of his problems would go away. Sex needs to be addressed by the church, all aspects of it, but there is a very tactful and biblical way to do it. Mark’s content is good it is his delivery that gets him in hot water on a consistent basis… Mark do us all a favor and keep preaching but clean up the language…
Casey Sabella on Mon, April 27, 2009
John has been stuck in a paradigm for too long. He needs to dismount from his dinosaur and honestly observe what God is doing presently in our world. I am quite sure I disagree with Driscoll on some points but would read anything he wrote long before I would dust yet another MacArthur polemic.
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